Balsillie/Phoenix part V

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kelly is interested in getting as much revenue for the league as possible, because the players' cut is dependent on it. If he thinks that Hamilton or whatever other city will bring in more cash than Phoenix does, he's going to support it. He has no responsibilities towards Phoenix or its fans.

Moreover, since he's looking at the current players, he cares more about short term profit than the long term financial health of the league. Nobody doubts that Hamilton would be more profitable in the short term.

But owners of the teams are more in it for the investment. Would moving the team from Phoenix to Hamilton make a US TV deal slightly less lucrative and therefore lower the values of other American franchises? What effects would the decreased stablity have on the long term health of the league? Would a team in Hamilton hurt or kill Buffalo in the long term? There are more difficult questions, and it's pretty obvious where the owners stand.

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/577233

Love dem unbiased articles!!!

Are you really complaining that an article from a Hamilton newspaper is taking it's angle to appeal to Hamilton readers?

Really?

Do you complain when a Playboy has pictures of naked women in it?

 

[seanlinden]

Funny thing is that the NHL hasn't even come close to maximizing it's marketing potiential . It's not in Houston, Seattle, KC, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, and San Antonio. There is a twisted case that the NHL could expand to 40 teams and still be viable. It's not going to happen but the sites for teams are there. To me, Toronto is like Saudi Arabia and hockey is oil. There is one monopoly on Toronto but another team can drill there and not effect the other. Should the GTA have another team? Yes. Will they? That's up to MLSE. Now the real test might be an anti-monopoly case against MLSE preventing a team from moving into Toronto.

Therein lies the problem -- with 40 teams the talent level would be extremely diluted, would be very hard to follow from an average fan perspective, and with a lot of suspect markets; would be getting closer to european salaries. So its about picking the most strategic 30 teams (maybe 32 one day). Looking at the old BCG matrix, you've basically gotta balance cash cows with question marks.

 

[Dolemite]

Do you complain when a Playboy has pictures of naked women in it?

Define naked.

 

[Quagmier]

The losing money has nothing to do with whether or not the team should be there. The losing of money is whether or not the people running the team up to about two years ago should be there and they shouldn't.

Someone please clarify this for me: Didn't the Coyotes sign a 30 year lease with Glendale Arena (now Jobing.com) under which they are barred from moving anywhere else and yet are still not getting any Arena proceeds (concessions, parking, etc.)?

How can any team in Phoenix be successful when they are tied to one of the worst arena leases in professional sports and play in a city that is pretty tough commute from downtown Phoenix?

 

[MoreOrr]

with a better lease better business sense and better marketing who knows.

I see you were careful not to use the word "if", though nevertheless there's a lot of "IF" in that statement, and then it still ends with "who knows".

This is not Nashville, which is a smaller city, and has all along been showing progress in growing a fanbase, and has only really lacked the corporate support.

 

[Dolemite]

Someone please clarify this for me: Didn't the Coyotes sign a 30 year lease with Glendale Arena (now Jobing.com) under which they are barred from moving anywhere else and yet are still not getting any Arena proceeds (concessions, parking, etc.)?

How can any team in Phoenix be successful when they are tied to one of the worst arena leases in professional sports

Well, that's what I've been saying. Idiots were running the team up until about two years ago.

...and play in a city that is pretty tough commute from downtown Phoenix?

It's not that far from Downtown Phoenix and the commute isn't bad.

 

[Panopticon]

Again, if you have idiots driving a team into the ground who is going to show up and watch them?

I think Leafs' fans would fall into that category...

 

[BigFatCat999]

Therein lies the problem -- with 40 teams the talent level would be extremely diluted, would be very hard to follow from an average fan perspective, and with a lot of suspect markets; would be getting closer to european salaries. So its about picking the most strategic 30 teams (maybe 32 one day). Looking at the old BCG matrix, you've basically gotta balance cash cows with question marks.

True, it's all about the holy trinity of sports: Owner, City, Arena. This is the foundation for a solid team. Now the arguement can be that you can raid talent from Europe and Russia. But to truly do that you would need a strong US and Canadian dollar. I think in the next five years there will be an expansion to 32. One more in the GTA and one out west in safe markets. (Seattle, Portland, or Winnipeg). The NHL COULD maximize it's US TV exposure by going for Houston or San Antonio but the risk is high. My thinking is that the NHL is beliving that National TV is begining to lose it's luster to the Internet.

Back to Balls, Phoenix, and the situation at hand. The arena is in a horrible location for the Yotes. Glendale was hurt the most by the economy and the area is not growing like the projections indicated. Moyes mismanaged the team and is hurting financially. Two parts of the holy trinity are in the crapper. A new owner can fix some of this problem but the biggest problem is the location of the arena And that is a big problem. You can't just pick up and move an arena. There are inner city options to move the team to; US Airways Arena is small but would be downtown and would be a bigger draw to the Yotes then the commute to Glendale. This will leave Phoenix with a white elephant with Jobing but it may be better than losing the team.

 

[jkrdevil]

Kelly is interested in getting as much revenue for the league as possible, because the players' cut is dependent on it. If he thinks that Hamilton or whatever other city will bring in more cash than Phoenix does, he's going to support it. He has no responsibilities towards Phoenix or its fans.

But he has no control over the matter. Honestly, I don't think he serves the players interest by these media tours. I think making these media tours and sort of burying the league might play to the audience of the general public it only serves to antagonize league management and makes them more likely to go after guaranteed contacts come labor negotiation time. That would hurt the players more than the team staying on Phoenix.

I understand why the players might want the 'Yotes out of Phoenix, it is probably though to better voice the concerns privately and stay out of it publicly. Paul Kelly probably needs to learn to shut-up before it ends up hurting the players more.

 

[Kikizaz]

The problem was mismanagement not the city. Jeez it's amazing how thick headed people are. Everyone on the 'move the Coyotes' have an agenda and this article is proof.

I get that the Coyotes were mismanaged... but really did the Coyotes "mismanagement" bar the doors from the public?

Mismanagement really seems like a weak excuse, probably more appropriate to say Arizona is golf country.

 

[McOvechking]

Mismanagement combined with poor location and superior alternative is enough for me to call the move to Hamilton both obvious and the best option.


The difference between idiots running Phoenix into the ground and idiots running the Leafs into the ground is that Toronto is a hockey city and Phoenix is not.

 

[Quagmier]

Well, that's what I've been saying. Idiots were running the team up until about two years ago.



It's not that far from Downtown Phoenix and the commute isn't bad.

Right. My point was that, because of the damage that's been done to the team by the old ownership, specifically the Glendale lease, that no amount of competent management will be able to dig their way of the mess their in.

From what I had heard about Glendale...it seemed like the perfect place to go watch a football game, mostly because football is more of an all-day experience (with the tailgating and all). Convincing casual fans of a cold weather sport to drive an extra 9 miles away from downtown is a much tougher sell than having a location in the heart of downtown. the old arena wasn't ideal for hockey, but at least you could draw the casuals out due to proximity.

As an ex-expo fan, I can say with absolute certainty (at least in my mind) that it was the Olympic Stadium's non-central location, and not its indoor atmosphere that was the biggest issue in getting non-diehard baseball fans to the stadium.

 

[HockeyScholar]

This Buffalo impact gets vastly overstated. Although there are ticket buyers from Canada, Buffalo wouldn't automatically lose all of them with a new team in Hamilton. The big thing that most people miss is that Buffalo games aren't even available on TV across the border in Canada, so there's no way I'm believing they suddenly lose 25% of their revenue when they won't lose any TV-watching fans.

Add to this that Buffalo is more than 50 miles from Hamilton and you have to cross a border to get there. They may be protected by NHL by-laws, but not common sense. And I don't care if the SE corner of Hamilton is 49.8 miles away from the NW corner of Buffalo. You could make a decent argument that Hamilton shouldn't pay Buffalo anything.

I agree here. As the myths get busted, anti-Balsillie posters are just looking for another silly argument to grasp onto.

-We need PHO in the league for the ESPN deal. Myth. In reality, the Coyotes averaged 7000 viewers per game.

-Once Phoenix gets a new arena the problems will be solved! Myth. In reality, Phoenix averaged under 11000 people in the rink each game. When you take into consideration that when teams like Calgary or Detroit came to town, the majority of fans cheered for the visiting team, so this only inflates those pathetic numbers.

-Once Phoenix starts winning the fans will come! Myth. Phoenix did make the playoffs for a few years, and these years all resulted in losses. Phoenix was also in playoff contention most of this year, and was 4th or 5th in the Western Conference at the all star break. Yet the team went on to lose $40+ million dollars.

Time to pull the plug.

 

[triggrman]

I see you were careful not to use the word "if", though nevertheless there's a lot of "IF" in that statement, and then it still ends with "who knows".

This is not Nashville, which is a smaller city, and has all along been showing progress in growing a fanbase, and has only really lacked the corporate support.

I agree it's not Nashville.

I just think that the fans there should get a chance with a smarter owner. One that doesn't pay the unproven head coach 3x more than anyone else.

 

[BigFatCat999]

In the 1990's Canadian teams were the one's on the market ready and primed to move to the US. American's were drolling over the chance to get a team. Some teams were moved; Winnipeg and Quebec City. But others were saved; Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, and Ottawa. Expansion saved a lot of these teams from moving simply to fill the spots these teams were destined to go to. Now it's America's turn to fight off the relocation. We turned back Ballisille in Pittsburgh and Nashville and now it's Phoenix's turn to fight. If the city and it's people and it's fans make a strong effort the team will stay. The fan base should be given a chance to keep their team. If the effort is weak they will lose their team. Part of me says they should move back to Winnipeg as a measure of fairness.

In the end, I think the situation with Phoenix is the toughest one yet. With Nashville being the easiest and Pittsburgh being the next easiest. The problem is the white elephant that is Jobing Arena. You can change owners, you can energize a city, but can't move an arena from a bad location.

If Bettman can find an owner who's willing to accept the risks of this team then there is a chance but there must be an ownership group who's willing to do that. If it does happen I expect an expansion right after the conclusion of the Phoenix fight where there is a team placed in the golden Horseshoe and one out west.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I see you were careful not to use the word "if", though nevertheless there's a lot of "IF" in that statement, and then it still ends with "who knows".

This is not Nashville, which is a smaller city, and has all along been showing progress in growing a fanbase, and has only really lacked the corporate support.

Actually, there is more to it. If you get a chance, read gsc2k2's thread on the finances of the Coyotes and their expense budget vs. Nashville's. Since Moyes companies were large vendors to the team, significant amount of expenses were not arms length transactions. It's possible that Moyes management team was just inept enough that they were paying almost double in expenses vs. Nashville. It's also possible Moyes was using his position to extract cash from the team and showing it as losses on the Coyote's books. We may never know which. Regardless, there is a great opportunity to reduce the team's expenses by $20 million almost overnight.

 

[pondnorth]

Phoenix loses over 20m per year since the Yotes moved there.Less than 11000 fans attending home games.Less than 8000 watching tv broadcasted game in Phoenix.Season ticket numbers so bad that they will not even announce how many were sold.An owner that wants out and states hockey there is a no go.Tv contract with FSN has ran out and no networks are interested in a new deal to broadcast there games.Owner has filed for bankrupcy.Less than 400 people attend rally to save team.No players or management at rally.Less than 400 people sign online petition to save Yotes in over a month.Bettman wants to keep the team in Phoenix because of the FANS,ha,ha,ha.After 40 or50 years of hockey,at some pro or miner pro level, Phoenix has shown that they are not a city that will support NHL hockey.It`s a simple as that,like it or not.National tv contract because of teams in the south,what a bad joke.

 

[HockeyScholar]

In the 1990's Canadian teams were the one's on the market ready and primed to move to the US. American's were drolling over the chance to get a team. Some teams were moved; Winnipeg and Quebec City. But others were saved; Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, and Ottawa. Expansion saved a lot of these teams from moving simply to fill the spots these teams were destined to go to. Now it's America's turn to fight off the relocation. We turned back Ballisille in Pittsburgh and Nashville and now it's Phoenix's turn to fight. If the city and it's people and it's fans make a strong effort the team will stay. The fan base should be given a chance to keep their team. If the effort is weak they will lose their team. Part of me says they should move back to Winnipeg as a measure of fairness.

This is another myth. Somehow people are comparing the Phoenix situation to Calgary and Edmonton of the '90s.

Facts to consider:
There are 433 rinks in the province of Alberta. Population 3 million people. Keep in mind that about a quarter of rinks in Calgary have 2 sheets of ice, they are complexes. I assume the same is true for Edmonton. The total sheets of indoor ice in Alberta is probably over 500.

There are 20 rinks in the state of Arizona. This inclues American West arena and Jobing.com arena. Population of Arizona, 6.5 million.

These two markets are simply not comparable. This is not the '90s anymore, Canadian hockey teams account for a huge portion of league revenue. The low Canadian dollar is basically the only reason that Calgary and Edmonton found themselves in that situation. We see that when Canadian teams are even close to a level playing field with American teams in terms of the currency, Canadian teams are top league revenue generators.

 

[Gooch]

I'm not saying it was mismangement.
I'm not saying it was the city/location.

I'm not saying it wasn't mismangement.
I'm not saying it wasn't the city/location.

It is a good question.
How long must *whatever* be there losing money before some realizes it shouldn't be there?

The *whatever* could be:
A McDonald's
A gas station
An NHL franchise
...etc...

Going by what you are saying I could safely assume you're all for the Islanders leaving Long Island?

 

[mouser]

-Once Phoenix starts winning the fans will come! Myth. Phoenix did make the playoffs for a few years, and these years all resulted in losses. Phoenix was also in playoff contention most of this year, and was 4th or 5th in the Western Conference at the all star break. Yet the team went on to lose $40+ million dollars.

If you do some research on this you'll discover the primary reason the team lost money during past playoff seasons was their status as second-tier renters in the NBA Sun's arena. They received zero to little in naming, signage (affects corporate sponsor opps), parking, concessions and other standard revenue streams that most NHL teams enjoy.

If the team had enjoyed on-ice (and attendance) success since the lockout anywhere near those those years we probably wouldn't have this thread today.

 

[Space Herpe]

Going by what you are saying I could safely assume you're all for the Islanders leaving Long Island?

Of course I'm not.
But I understand they are a business and are losing money. If push comes to shove, and they're gone, yes, it will suck, but I can't blame Wang for being sick of losing money.

 

[HockeyScholar]

If you do some research on this you'll discover the primary reason the team lost money during past playoff seasons was their status as second-tier renters in the NBA Sun's arena. They received zero to little in naming, signage (affects corporate sponsor opps), parking, concessions and other standard revenue streams that most NHL teams enjoy.

If the team had enjoyed on-ice (and attendance) success since the lockout anywhere near those those years we probably wouldn't have this thread today.

Phoenix had to stay in a temporary arena after being moved. So what? Basically all teams that are relocated or expanded have a temporary arena. And these teams don't go on losing $40+ million dollars a season after they are established in their new rinks.

It's time to give up the excuses already. I'm not saying that the team must be moved to Hamilton, but I am saying that this team must be moved. This market is an abyss.

 

[copperandblue]

I agree it's not Nashville.

I just think that the fans there should get a chance with a smarter owner. One that doesn't pay the unproven head coach 3x more than anyone else.

It's probably been hashed and re-hashed a number of times in the numurous threads but I haven't followed the discussion all the way through.

Based on the information available on the net, which granted can't be taken as 100% accurate, it would appear that Phoenix could have stayed in the black for most of their time down there.

When you compare their payroll to their losses there are only 3 years that I could find that Phoenix would have needed to have the lowest payroll in the league to stay in the black (but for those three years they would still have lost money).

And that doesn't even factor in Gretzky's heavy paycheque.

Most of the teams that still would have had lower payrolls for the other years have been much more methodical in how they built their teams and have had better on ice success as a result, which goes directly to building up interest and a fan base.

I think you're right in that a smarter owner would go a long way to fixing the problem and that doesn't even touch on the "if's" of arena concessions by the city.

 

[HockeyScholar]

Lets say the team is still in Phoenix next year. How many people do you guys think will show up to games? If the number is under 11 000 now, what can we expect next year? Between 8 and 9 thousand a game isn't unreasonable. This could turn into a situation like the Expos.