Babcock fired by the Leafs discussion

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Well, you are right that the early Shanaplan was about restoring some order in Leaf Land.

Just from the hockey side of things, Peter Horacek was treated like a "substitute teacher."

Toronto Maple Leafs’ season can’t end soon enough

EDMONTON — Peter Horachek, the Toronto Maple Leafs’ substitute teacher, er, head coach, will probably be told ‘thanks for all your hard work but sorry, we’re going in a different direction’ after this train wreck of a season, which may be a relief, of sorts, because he won’t be on the train any...

edmontonjournal.com

As it turns out, Babcock was an extreme over correction with his own issues.

"This is not a gut job".

Lol... a year later and they were gutting the team.

Shanahan's first year here was a disaster. There's no other way of putting it. It was his first few months on the job with a team that just finished 8th last in the league.

No one would have held it against him if the team didn't immediately make it back into the playoffs.

Whether it was because the board pressured him into trying to compete, or if he was truly that incompetent, we'll never know. At this point I think it's safe to say Shanahan is no longer interested in winning a cup anymore. The goal for Shanahan now is to keep his job.

If there's any other organization in all hockey with more sycophants hell bent on self-preservation than the ones in control of this team right now I can't think of it.

 

[Martin Skoula]

"This is not a gut job".

Lol... a year later and they were gutting the team.

Shanahan's first year here was a disaster. There's no other way of putting it. It was his first few months on the job with a team that just finished 8th last in the league.

No one would have held it against him if the team didn't immediately make it back into the playoffs.

Whether it was because the board pressured him into trying to compete, or if he was truly that incompetent, we'll never know. At this point I think it's safe to say Shanahan is no longer interested in winning a cup anymore. The goal for Shanahan now is to keep his job.

If there's any other organization in all hockey with more sycophants hell bent on self-preservation than the ones in control of this team right now I can't think of it.

He was never interested in just winning a cup, he had to win it his way and prove that his Nu-NHL he’s been architecting for almost 20 years now is viable.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't think Dubas was paying a Babcock tax on those players if that's the framing. They were and are elite young stars who the most profitable team in the league and they wanted to be paid big money as established by the Tavares deal.

This is correct. They could pretty much have him removed whenever they chose to, which we saw later.

I don’t think the Tavares deal really had anything to do with it. I think the one person who was most affected by Babcock and Lou was Mitch Marner. Those two messed with him his entire ELC and he took it to them. I can say with 100% confidence Lou is the reason Marner is making 10 mill. He should have just gave Marner the bonuses. They treated him differently than Matthews and they should have just treated both the same. Lou didn’t handle the Marner/Babcock list story properly and we know for a fact that pissed off Marners family, I saw it in an article. So I think there were a lot of little minor things that the organization miss handled that in result made the players want to demand a premium. Especially Marner because he probably felt he had a chip on his shoulder and that’s because of how he was treated early on.

Lou and the early days treatment were an issue for sure but Marner would have happily taken the 8.5 x 8 that he offered and that Dubas turned down.

 

[Stephen]

I don’t think the Tavares deal really had anything to do with it. I think the one person who was most affected by Babcock and Lou was Mitch Marner. Those two messed with him his entire ELC and he took it to them. I can say with 100% confidence Lou is the reason Marner is making 10 mill. He should have just gave Marner the bonuses. They treated him differently than Matthews and they should have just treated both the same. Lou didn’t handle the Marner/Babcock list story properly and we know for a fact that pissed off Marners family, I saw it in an article. So I think there were a lot of little minor things that the organization miss handled that in result made the players want to demand a premium. Especially Marner because he probably felt he had a chip on his shoulder and that’s because of how he was treated early on.

The best justification for the Marner contract is merit, a hurt feelings tax doesn’t make anyone look good and I don’t think exists.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I think Babcock has mental health issues. I'm being serious not trolling.

I think that's a fair assessment and not trolling whatsoever.

I've been thinking about this more though. By no means am I sympathetic to Babcock, but you really have to wonder what the heck is going on in his mind. The guy is given a second chance to resume his career in the NHL, a league for a period he was considered hands down the best coach in the league. Not like he needed to considering he just took in $25 million over four years from the Leafs to sit on a dock doing nothing. And he screws it up the second he is given a chance.

And that's where I struggle with it, beyond thinking he is some sort of manipulative psychopath. We're in a day and age where social media is so prominent that people are vulturing around waiting for you to make the slightest screwup. Mental issues and struggles amongst people is higher than ever. Not to mention you'd think someone who is now 60 would get softer in age. There is trying to be a tough-love, father-figure hardass coach to try and get the best out of your players. Then there is being an asshole. After all these years, and how things in society are perceived in 2023 as opposed to in 2003, you would like to think someone of his stature would be smarter than he is and have learned his lesson.

 

[DuklaNation]

History repeats itself. You would think people would use their brains and comprehend why it failed previously before going to back to the same well. Nope. It will be different this time. Yet, read opinions online, they think they know better than everyone else somehow.

 

[Trapper]

I think Babcock has mental health issues. I'm being serious not trolling.

I was going to say this as well. I think the man needs professional help if his reality of what is acceptable is so far from what really is.

Who in the history of sports was fired/resigned before they even held a practice? That’s some serious issues right there and not something I think I’ve ever seen. Even Billy Martin vs. Reggie Jackson back in the day didn’t look as bad as this. 50% bad person, 50% mental health issue? Who knows? Get help for sure if that’s what’s needed. Never mind Hockey, get help.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I think that's a fair assessment and not trolling whatsoever.

I've been thinking about this more though. By no means am I sympathetic to Babcock, but you really have to wonder what the heck is going on in his mind. The guy is given a second chance to resume his career in the NHL, a league for a period he was considered hands down the best coach in the league. Not like he needed to considering he just took in $25 million over four years from the Leafs to sit on a dock doing nothing. And he screws it up the second he is given a chance.

And that's where I struggle with it, beyond thinking he is some sort of manipulative psychopath. We're in a day and age where social media is so prominent that people are vulturing around waiting for you to make the slightest screwup. Mental issues and struggles amongst people is higher than ever. Not to mention you'd think someone who is now 60 would get softer in age. There is trying to be a tough-love, father-figure hardass coach to try and get the best out of your players. Then there is being an asshole. After all these years, and how things in society are perceived in 2023 as opposed to in 2003, you would like to think someone of his stature would be smarter than he is and have learned his lesson.

Chelios was this week's guest on Chiclets and he said Babcock has been doing this shit his entire career (Commodore's Beef with him goes back to the Anaheim days and then again in DET). Chelios said he doesn't believe for a second that he learned anything from the Marner incident or that he he even thinks that he did anything wrong with all this phone privacy stuff.

Some people are just narcissistic a**holes on a power trip. Chelios said this is what he does with younger players and fringe players who aren't on big contracts. He plays an intimidation game tries to show power over you.

He'll never coach in the NHL again. Good riddance. Keep pricks like him and Keenan out of positions of power

 

[Menzinger]

An interesting comparison is a guy like Torts, whose also known as a tough coach, but is generally still liked by a lot of players, even though he seems to burn some of them out with his practices. Ive got a hard time thinking of a coach that's had as many public issues with former players as Babs

 

[kb]

Dubas was not allowed to fire Babcock earlier, and the timing would have been prior to contracts, so I cant understand those patting themselves on the back saying there is no Babcock tax.

He wanted to bring in his own guy earlier, that's no secret.

Perhaps there is a chance you guys may be wrong?

 

[TDotMassive]

Am I the only person who doesn't think what Babs did (this time) was so bad? I mean... feels very snowflake to me.

 

[kb]

Am I the only person who doesn't think what Babs did (this time) was so bad? I mean... feels very snowflake to me.

I'm about as old school as they are, but this is about abuse of power and control.


What are the young guys going to say......no? He's got a history of this type of thing.

 

[Azail]

Am I the only person who doesn't think what Babs did (this time) was so bad? I mean... feels very snowflake to me.

You would be cool with your boss taking your phone and looking through it for minutes? And if you say no, there is a very good chance you are let go? That is kind of what it would be like to the layman.

 

[Stephen]

Dubas was not allowed to fire Babcock earlier, and the timing would have been prior to contracts, so I cant understand those patting themselves on the back saying there is no Babcock tax.

He wanted to bring in his own guy earlier, that's no secret.

Perhaps there is a chance you guys may be wrong?

The idea that we need to use Babcock being a monster to make Dubas negotiations seem more reasonable doesn't pass the smell test at all. Considering the volumes that have been written to prove how elite our players were paid a reasonable dollar amount, cap % and are so much better than comparables over the years... Now all of a sudden Dubas had to pay a little more to mollify everyone?

Either Dubas paid a fair, process driven, market suitable price for Matthews and Marner with informed cap projections. Or he overpaid for Matthews and Marner because of Babcock. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Stephen]

Am I the only person who doesn't think what Babs did (this time) was so bad? I mean... feels very snowflake to me.

Only you can answer whether or not you would feel comfortable if your privacy was invaded and potentially weaponized against you in a 'professional' setting by someone in authority who can alter the course of your career. Or how you would have felt if that happened to you at 18, 19, 20 and you weren't a mature adult with a firm sense of personal boundaries.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

An interesting comparison is a guy like Torts, whose also known as a tough coach, but is generally still liked by a lot of players, even though he seems to burn some of them out with his practices. Ive got a hard time thinking of a coach that's had as many public issues with former players as Babs

Mike Keenan. Probably just as bad but we haven't heard a lot of what he did because social media wasn't really a thing back then.

The story of what he did to Hawerchuk was brutal

 

[LeafSteel]

Not a Babcock basher. I was thrilled when we signed him.

A lot we will never know about what happened and why, but it’s pretty obvious that he’s awkward and his methods don’t translate very well.

A t best, he’s aloof and can’t get out of his own way.

At worst, he’s a narcissistic psychopath.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it’s clear that his NHL coaching career is pretty much toast.

Let the argument over his legacy and HOF suitability commence, to infinity and beyond…

 

[Stephen]

Mike Keenan. Probably just as bad but we haven't heard a lot of what he did because social media wasn't really a thing back then.

The story of what he did to Hawerchuk was brutal

Keenan was terrible. Even back in the 90s his treatment of guys like Eddie Belfour on the bench, his pissy feuds with Brett Hull and co. in St. Louis etc. seemed completely excessive.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Keenan was terrible. Even back in the 90s his treatment of guys like Eddie Belfour on the bench, his pissy feuds with Brett Hull and co. in St. Louis etc. seemed completely excessive.

I always say that there is a difference between playing for a tough, demanding coach and playing for someone who is just an a**hole. Playing for Torts is not the same as playing for Babs or Keenan.

Doing the kind of crap that Babs and Keenan does absolutely nothing to make you want to go through a wall for them. I've work under many different managers at my work and I have no issue working for someone who is firm and demanding but fair. I worked for one guy who was an irrational prick and It did nothing for me to want to work harder for the guy. Many of us just wanted to spite the guy.

 

[francis246]

I'm about as old school as they are, but this is about abuse of power and control.


What are the young guys going to say......no? He's got a history of this type of thing.

I think it’s the fact that he took peoples phones and started scrolling and then lied about it. I would never let anyone take my phone and just scrolling besides the Mrs. you just can’t do that.

 

[Antropovsky]

Dubas was not allowed to fire Babcock earlier, and the timing would have been prior to contracts, so I cant understand those patting themselves on the back saying there is no Babcock tax.

He wanted to bring in his own guy earlier, that's no secret.

Perhaps there is a chance you guys may be wrong?

There definitely wasn't a babs tax. Overall, the players are all on reasonable contracts with exception to Marner. Matthews is clearly following contract advice by Marleau. And other Star NHL players have done the same too.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Could hire babcock back isntead of keffe

 

[Bluebear]

I'm about as old school as they are, but this is about abuse of power and control.


What are the young guys going to say......no? He's got a history of this type of thing.

if I had nudes of my girlfriend on my phone I would tell anyone "no" to scrolling through my phone. all they need to say is "I got some personal stuff on there, if you want to see some pics of my summer I'll email you some."

To me the whole thing is kind of weird, like what was Babcock really doing? was he trying to creep on intimate photos the guys likely had, or did he assume that all the guys would have 100% sfw content similar to what he probably has. Was he creeping, power tripping, or just out of touch. I mean if the guys felt like he was gonna punish them for refusing then its a big problem, but anyone that just let him scroll through the phone is a big time wimp.

 

[geo25]

I think that's a fair assessment and not trolling whatsoever.

I've been thinking about this more though. By no means am I sympathetic to Babcock, but you really have to wonder what the heck is going on in his mind. The guy is given a second chance to resume his career in the NHL, a league for a period he was considered hands down the best coach in the league. Not like he needed to considering he just took in $25 million over four years from the Leafs to sit on a dock doing nothing. And he screws it up the second he is given a chance.

And that's where I struggle with it, beyond thinking he is some sort of manipulative psychopath. We're in a day and age where social media is so prominent that people are vulturing around waiting for you to make the slightest screwup. Mental issues and struggles amongst people is higher than ever. Not to mention you'd think someone who is now 60 would get softer in age. There is trying to be a tough-love, father-figure hardass coach to try and get the best out of your players. Then there is being an asshole. After all these years, and how things in society are perceived in 2023 as opposed to in 2003, you would like to think someone of his stature would be smarter than he is and have learned his lesson.

Psychopaths cant hold back especially when they firmly believe they are superior to everyone. They dont think they'll ever get caught.and if they do they can rationalize their way out if it. Good riddance. Now everything Mike Commodore used to say (and still does) comes into focus. No one believed him or Chelios or Franzen ....I think more will come to the surface.
Shanny knew this & still hired him.shanny deserves to be fired....

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

if I had nudes of my girlfriend on my phone I would tell anyone "no" to scrolling through my phone. all they need to say is "I got some personal stuff on there, if you want to see some pics of my summer I'll email you some."

To me the whole thing is kind of weird, like what was Babcock really doing? was he trying to creep on intimate photos the guys likely had, or did he assume that all the guys would have 100% sfw content similar to what he probably has. Was he creeping, power tripping, or just out of touch. I mean if the guys felt like he was gonna punish them for refusing then its a big problem, but anyone that just let him scroll through the phone is a big time wimp.

Likely looking for something he can use against the player, to hold power over them

if I had nudes of my girlfriend on my phone I would tell anyone "no" to scrolling through my phone. all they need to say is "I got some personal stuff on there, if you want to see some pics of my summer I'll email you some."

To me the whole thing is kind of weird, like what was Babcock really doing? was he trying to creep on intimate photos the guys likely had, or did he assume that all the guys would have 100% sfw content similar to what he probably has. Was he creeping, power tripping, or just out of touch. I mean if the guys felt like he was gonna punish them for refusing then its a big problem, but anyone that just let him scroll through the phone is a big time wimp.

Likely looking for something he can use against the player, to hold power over them