Babcock fired by the Leafs discussion

[francis246]

Firing Babcock was giving up on Marner & Matthews ever growing up (and or attending gym for that matter in some cases).

you say some pretty stupid stuff daily about these guys. It's hella weird. Not only were Marner and Matthews better players post Babcock but both put on more muscle mass post Babcock as well.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

many of us have been saying this for years and got mocked for it. Babcock and Lou screwed us when it came to the RFA contracts. Granted Kyle still could have flexed his muscle and enforced that we shouldn't pay RFA's that much, but it's clear that there were several incidents that put Kyle in a tough spot when it came to these negotiations.

1. Marner not getting his bonuses (I can't remember if Nylander got his) but I'm pretty sure that alone cost us 2 million on AAV if we had just let them get that money on their ELC's

2. Marner being burried on the fourth line his rookie season, Nylander constantly in the dog house

3. Marner and Babcock's list

4. Matthews not getting the play time he probably deserved in the playoffs, never getting a chance to play with Marner early in his career

5. Babcock intentionally suppressing the offensive talents of the kids

6. Probably God knows how many times they complained to Lou about some of this crap

I think Babcock thought it was most important to reign the kids in and desperately tried to get them to take a "team first" approach to the game.

He failed miserably, to the point that it backfired to the opposite effect. But come on... when Keefe allowed Matthews and the gang to form their own lines and dictate when and how long they play, our playoff success didn't exactly get any better.

At the end of the day, Babcock is an "old school" coach and wasn't able to adapt to the sensibilities of gen z.

He made a lot of enemies along the way (which speaks a lot for how his coaching is perceived by players) and they know how to rile internet mobs in the modern world.

20 years ago something like "let me look through your family photos" becoming a fireable massive controversy would be incomprehensible. I mean, I largely agree with Babcock. I think people are far FAR too soft these days. But as such, I would never even try and coach a bunch of gen z's. Babcock should have known the modern young world is not for him when "yelling" at one of his millionaire mid-30's athletes became a "scandal" in the nhl.

Oh well, he likely flew home on a private jet and will spend his remaining years cycling through his numerous waterfront mansions around the world.

 

[cyris]

This Reddit thread is full of some gems.

Reddit - Dive into anything

reddit.com

View attachment 744310

Like what kinda person does that?

 

[Stephen]

It actually sheds a bit of light on why negotiations went as hard as they did with the big 3. Yet they saw it as imperative they continue with this disaster of a coach all the way until the wheels came all the way off.

I don't want to talk about the money stuff too much, but it makes sense why Babcock had to fly down to Arizona every summer for a Matthews summit.

 

[Stephen]

many of us have been saying this for years and got mocked for it. Babcock and Lou screwed us when it came to the RFA contracts. Granted Kyle still could have flexed his muscle and enforced that we shouldn't pay RFA's that much, but it's clear that there were several incidents that put Kyle in a tough spot when it came to these negotiations.

I don't know if we need to use the Mike Babcock story to try and find justification for why Kyle did x, y, z.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Just make him go away
He can go bet on himself somewhere like the noone gives a shit league

 

[francis246]

I don't know if we need to use the Mike Babcock story to try and find justification for why Kyle did x, y, z.

This has nothing to do with the recent Mike Babcock stories. I’ve been consistent with this for years. And if you actually took 2 second to read my post I said, “granted Kyle could have still flexed his muscle and enforced that we shouldn’t pay RFA’s that much”

Ya Kyle still made the deals but it’s pretty clear now Babcock put these guys through hell and it makes sense why they were not going to take a team friendly deal. And it makes me believe Kyle’s story of not having any control It sounded like it was torture dealing with him. I think if Kyle had his way Babcock would have been gone earlier but Shanny wanted to keep him for God knows what reason. We can’t pretend like it didn’t play a factor, it’s clear it did.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Makes me think the veteran player was Tyson Barrie that complained and asked for a trade.

Barrie said his and Babcock's relationship started off on the wrong foot from his opening phone call to welcome him to the team.

 

[Stephen]

This has nothing to do with the recent Mike Babcock stories. I’ve been consistent with this for years. And if you actually took 2 second to read my post I said, “granted Kyle could have still flexed his muscle and enforced that we shouldn’t pay RFA’s that much”

Ya Kyle still made the deals but it’s pretty clear now Babcock put these guys through hell and it makes sense why they were not going to take a team friendly deal. And it makes me believe Kyle’s story of not having any control It sounded like it was torture dealing with him. I think if Kyle had his way Babcock would have been gone earlier but Shanny wanted to keep him for God knows what reason. We can’t pretend like it didn’t play a factor, it’s clear it did.

My opinion is the Mike Babcock story has enough meat on the bone from a tyrant-to-downfall to abuse of power, coaching culture that a Kyle angle isn't really necessary.

 

[Maple Leaf]

what did he do
i thought he was coo

 

[Stephen]

Makes me think the veteran player was Tyson Barrie that complained and asked for a trade.

Barrie got off to a rough start so I wouldn't be surprised if he had a difficult relationship with Babcock and was the one asking for the trade.

Spezza was clearly not treated well by Babcock and close to Dubas. Maybe the firing brought them together.

Kapanen? He had a hard time breaking into the Leaf lineup over the years and would have been a young guy with a fun lifestyle off the ice.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Babcock basically said Barrie had to re-invent his game
Benches Spezza in home town opener - just to be a dick

 

[francis246]

My opinion is the Mike Babcock story has enough meat on the bone from a tyrant-to-downfall to abuse of power, coaching culture that a Kyle angle isn't really necessary.

That’s fine if you feel that way, but I and others see and recognize the connection. Whether you want to acknowledge that is up to you. But it’s pretty clear there was a connection to how that whole RFA scenario played out based on how Babcock treated those players while he coached here. Might not have been entirely babcocks fault, Dubas should shoulder some blame for signing them. But things make a little more sense why the players were so unwilling to compromise.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Ofc when the leafs get arguably their most talented young core ever, we give them this clown of a coach.

Shannys hiring/firing decisions ....
Pretty bad

The reason Babcock and Lou were brought in was to break the sense of entitlement among the core group of losers that preceded this one.

Remember Salutegate took place Shanahan's first year here.

The players were bringing a rock star attitude to the rink every night. Cocaine use was a big enough problem that the team approached the police about it. Babcock and Lou, both strict disciplinarians, were brought in to bring order back to the dressing room.

Shanahan didn't want those loser blowheads rubbing off on his three budding young stars.

This isn't a defense of Babcock either. The guy is clearly a complete asshat. I think they're all idiots actually.

That includes the entire Columbus Blue Jackets organization as well.

 

[Squiffy]

What in that link says anything of the sort that you’ve claimed there?

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

What in that link says anything of the sort that you’ve claimed there?

Wrong link, sorry, I edited it now to include the right one.

Here's the exact quote: "Last season, a senior Maple Leafs team executive met with Toronto Police Service officers to address concerns that Leafs players were purportedly using cocaine".

 

[Squiffy]

Wrong link, sorry, I edited it now to include the right one.

Here's the exact quote: "Last season, a senior Maple Leafs team executive met with Toronto Police Service officers to address concerns that Leafs players were purportedly using cocaine".

Had never seen that story, thx. Kids aged 5 & 3 at that point lol.. my down time to follow the Leafs in depth was negligible at that point.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Had never seen that story, thx. Kids aged 5 & 3 at that point lol.. my down time to follow the Leafs in depth was negligible at that point.

I suspect it was Shanahan that approached the police.

If cocaine use was rampant in the dressing room it would go a long way to explain some of the on ice results. Here's the link to Salutegate in case you didn't know about that. The players essentially gave Leafs fans the middle finger and that was the beginning of the end for those losers.

Kessel was traded that offseason and Phaneuf went the following deadline.

 

[Squiffy]

Salutegate I know, I mean, when I say not following as closely as I once did at that point it’s a relative thing, probably still watched every game or close at least. But in terms of say having prospects in the ECHL I was paying attention too or consuming every possible Leaf media mention, it cratered for a decade or so. I doubt it ever gets back to that level, but we’ll see what retirement brings in 20 odd years.

Some of this Babs stuff is just really nuts. I feel like there’s a bit of a pile-on happening right now and a bit hard to tell what all to completely believe, but lots of smoke, there’s fire somewhere.

 

[CanadaSteam1]

I think Babcock has mental health issues. I'm being serious not trolling.

 

[Stephen]

That’s fine if you feel that way, but I and others see and recognize the connection. Whether you want to acknowledge that is up to you. But it’s pretty clear there was a connection to how that whole RFA scenario played out based on how Babcock treated those players while he coached here. Might not have been entirely babcocks fault, Dubas should shoulder some blame for signing them. But things make a little more sense why the players were so unwilling to compromise.

I don't think Dubas was paying a Babcock tax on those players if that's the framing. They were and are elite young stars who the most profitable team in the league and they wanted to be paid big money as established by the Tavares deal.

 

[Stephen]

The reason Babcock and Lou were brought in was to break the sense of entitlement among the core group of losers that preceded this one.

Remember Salutegate took place Shanahan's first year here.

The players were bringing a rock star attitude to the rink every night. Cocaine use was a big enough problem that the team approached the police about it. Babcock and Lou, both strict disciplinarians, were brought in to bring order back to the dressing room.

Shanahan didn't want those loser blowheads rubbing off on his three budding young stars.

This isn't a defense of Babcock either. The guy is clearly a complete asshat. I think they're all idiots actually.

That includes the entire Columbus Blue Jackets organization as well.

Well, you are right that the early Shanaplan was about restoring some order in Leaf Land.

Just from the hockey side of things, Peter Horacek was treated like a "substitute teacher."

Toronto Maple Leafs’ season can’t end soon enough

EDMONTON — Peter Horachek, the Toronto Maple Leafs’ substitute teacher, er, head coach, will probably be told ‘thanks for all your hard work but sorry, we’re going in a different direction’ after this train wreck of a season, which may be a relief, of sorts, because he won’t be on the train any...

edmontonjournal.com

As it turns out, Babcock was an extreme over correction with his own issues.

 

[Kiwi]

I think Babcock has mental health issues. I'm being serious not trolling.

I don't think so

You don't need to be mentally ill to be a prick, his treatment of younger players looks like bullying rather than some sort of mental issue

 

[TheRumble]

A lot of people gloss over that Babcock was ultimately fired in Toronto because of the on ice performance of the team. I actually began to notice his warts in 2018 but I wasn't an active poster here. Some red flags:

1. Game 1 of the 2018 Leafs - Bruins series where we lost 7-2, Leo Komorov and Patrick Marleau had more TOI than Matthews and Marner. In game the 2 Komarov wad elevated to the 1st line and led all forwards in ice time until he got injured. This was a year before the infamous Marleau>Matthews Game 7 game.

2. In his last 82 games with the Leafs, he actually had a losing record. The team got off to a hot start in their first year with Tavares and then went .500 the remainder of the the season. If you remember that season, we didn't have Matthews for most of the first half so there was really no excuse for the SECOND half to be as bad as it was.

3. Babcock was a terrible defensive coach. A lot of the Leafs' rep for being a poor defensive team actually dates back to the Babcock days. They've been an excellent defensive team since Keefe has taken over - although oddly most people here don't seem to think so even though we have ranked top 8 top 3 in every defensive metric for the last three seasons. PK%, shots allowed, high danger shots allowed, time spent in defensive zone etc.

 

[francis246]

I don't think Dubas was paying a Babcock tax on those players if that's the framing. They were and are elite young stars who the most profitable team in the league and they wanted to be paid big money as established by the Tavares deal.

I don’t think the Tavares deal really had anything to do with it. I think the one person who was most affected by Babcock and Lou was Mitch Marner. Those two messed with him his entire ELC and he took it to them. I can say with 100% confidence Lou is the reason Marner is making 10 mill. He should have just gave Marner the bonuses. They treated him differently than Matthews and they should have just treated both the same. Lou didn’t handle the Marner/Babcock list story properly and we know for a fact that pissed off Marners family, I saw it in an article. So I think there were a lot of little minor things that the organization miss handled that in result made the players want to demand a premium. Especially Marner because he probably felt he had a chip on his shoulder and that’s because of how he was treated early on.