Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[CobraAcesS]

With Roy gone, I'm more optimistic we could maybe see:

Barrie-EJ
Bigras-Beauch
Zadorov-Tyutin

Gelinas and Weir in the press box.

That's pretty much always been what I've wanted to see. FB would make up the minutes by playing heavy PK minutes, and late in games/periods when we're trying to hold a lead.

Who knows if it will work, but I'd like to see it tried.

The other one is FB with Barrie, and Z with EJ. Then Tyutin with Bigras.

 

[the_fan]

You're probably right. I'm just saying Beauch on the right side isn't a bad thing.

Yeah but Barrie on the left side would probably be bad, he's a natural RD, don't think i've ever seen him play on the left side.

 

[AvsGuy]

Maybe I missed all the talk on this forum about it, but didn't we sign Gabriel Bourque to a PTO? Is he a likely shot to make the team?

 

[henchman21]

Yeah but Barrie on the left side would probably be bad, he's a natural RD, don't think i've ever seen him play on the left side.

Most of Barrie's junior time was on the left, and he has shifted up with EJ frequently over the past few seasons. I don't think Barrie has played a full game on the left in the pros though.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I get the idea behind loading up the top pair but I'm just not that eager to see Barrie and EJ together. I'm not against trying it at some point but with hopefully finally some decent LD coming up and some half decent other options I don't think this is really nessesary.

Not that we can't talk about it again but there is a thread on the bourques.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Most of Barrie's junior time was on the left, and he has shifted up with EJ frequently over the past few seasons. I don't think Barrie has played a full game on the left in the pros though.

Yeah if you watch games at the tail end of last season Roy was actually putting them together for shifts on occasion.

That's why I thought there was at least a slim chance he may try it. With Bednar who knows, but I'd guess it's closer to 50/50 than it may have been previously.

I get the idea behind loading up the top pair but I'm just not that eager to see Barrie and EJ together. I'm not against trying it at some point but with hopefully finally some decent LD coming up and some half decent other options I don't think this is really nessesary.

Not that we can't talk about it again but there is a thread on the bourques.

The thing is, I don't think we have anyone else who is ready for that spot, and FB needs his minutes cut from the opening gate if we're going to get a high level of play from him for the entire year. That's why I want it so badly.

EJ & Barrie are the only two defenders on this team who should touch 25 minutes a night right now.

 

[Foppa2118]

There are a number of lefties that play right pretty well (the lack of good right shots forces a number to play right over their careers), but it is rare that righties play the left well. What really matters is how the Avs line up. Barrie played left a lot in junior and was pretty good there, but he hasn't played left enough in the NHL to know what he can really do there (I think he'd be good at it). Beauch is probably one of the most versatile lefties in the league. IMO he is everybit as good on the right as he is on the left... so any top 4 combination should have 2 of Beauch, EJ, and Barrie on the right.

Now on the bottom pairing it is a bit trickier. Bigras played about half of his time in junior on the right and is just about as good there in most ways. His offense suffers a bit. Wier has played the right side with some success in the NHL. Z shouldn't. Tyutin is probably the guy to play the right simply because he is paired with Z. He isn't nearly as good on the right as he is on the left, but to start the season Z should play with Tyutin to get up to speed. Later in the season Tyutin can be moved out or on the left with somebody (hopefully with Z moving up the lineup).

It's all about how much game time practice they've had at it. Righties rarely have had to switch to the left during their upbringing, so they haven't had much practice at it. The Avs have about three that can play their off side well out of 25 or so, and they're all lefties.

Asking a D man who hasn't had this experience to make plays at NHL speed, against NHL forechecks, is a big leap. It's like a WWE wrestler with no fighting experience trying to fight in the UFC. It doesn't go well.

They have to take the puck on their backhand in transition if they want to take a safer route up ice in transition, and avoid the middle. They have to take an extra second to turn their bodies to make D to D passes both in the defensive zone, and offensive zone, which also leaves their bodies in a tougher position to recover after a turnover. They have to turn their bodies and risk taking hooking penalties on their backhand to defend rushes down the wall in their own zone. The amount of times you have to do these things increases dramatically on your offside, which increases the chance of a mistake happening.

Coach's don't like taking these risks, that's why so many NHL coach's dislike it. Turnovers are their number one fear, because they can come up with the best gameplan in the world, but it all goes out the window if there's a turnover, or a soft defensive play by one guy.

The Avs are actually fortunate to have two guys (Beauch and Bigras) on the big club that have proven experience playing their off side. Most teams don't have multiple guys that can do it that well. From what I've heard, Tyutin was not good at all at this in Columbus, so it will be interesting seeing how he does with Z. He's gonna have to keep it real simple and let Z do most everything with the puck, which could be easy to gameplan against.

 

[henchman21]

It's all about how much game time practice they've had at it. Righties rarely have had to switch to the left during their upbringing, so they haven't had much practice at it. The Avs have about three that can play their off side well out of 25 or so, and they're all lefties.

Asking a D man who hasn't had this experience to make plays at NHL speed, against NHL forechecks, is a big leap. It's like a WWE wrestler with no fighting experience trying to fight in the UFC. It doesn't go well.

They have to take the puck on their backhand in transition if they want to take a safer route up ice in transition, and avoid the middle. They have to take an extra second to turn their bodies to make D to D passes both in the defensive zone, and offensive zone, which also leaves their bodies in a tougher position to recover after a turnover. They have to turn their bodies and risk taking hooking penalties on their backhand to defend rushes down the wall in their own zone. The amount of times you have to do these things increases dramatically on your offside, which increases the chance of a mistake happening.

Coach's don't like taking these risks, that's why so many NHL coach's dislike it. Turnovers are their number one fear, because they can come up with the best gameplan in the world, but it all goes out the window if there's a turnover, or a soft defensive play by one guy.

The Avs are actually fortunate to have two guys (Beauch and Bigras) on the big club that have proven experience playing their off side. Most teams don't have multiple guys that can do it that well. From what I've heard, Tyutin was not good at all at this in Columbus, so it will be interesting seeing how he does with Z. He's gonna have to keep it real simple and let Z do most everything with the puck, which could be easy to gameplan against.

Barrie has proven it as much, if not more than Bigras has... so it isn't all lefties. Tyutin looked bad on the right of JMFJ, but has looked decent with others throughout the years on the right side.

I fully understand the difference and risks. It just isn't all that uncommon for lefties to have to play the right side, it is a lot more uncommon for righties to play left. You can go through the NHL and see a number of lefties that play the right frequently or prefer it... Hammer, Coburn, Beauch, Phanuef, Goligoski, Depres, among many other lefties have played a significant chunk of their time on the right and done really well. The advantage for the Avs, is the player that likely has to play their off side (I don't see EJ and Barrie on the same pairing), it likely on the bottom pairing. The minutes will be limited.

 

[Foppa2118]

Barrie has proven it as much, if not more than Bigras has... so it isn't all lefties. Tyutin looked bad on the right of JMFJ, but has looked decent with others throughout the years on the right side.

I fully understand the difference and risks. It just isn't all that uncommon for lefties to have to play the right side, it is a lot more uncommon for righties to play left. You can go through the NHL and see a number of lefties that play the right frequently or prefer it... Hammer, Coburn, Beauch, Phanuef, Goligoski, Depres, among many other lefties have played a significant chunk of their time on the right and done really well. The advantage for the Avs, is the player that likely has to play their off side (I don't see EJ and Barrie on the same pairing), it likely on the bottom pairing. The minutes will be limited.

I disagree on Barrie. I don't think he's proven himself as much as Bigras has, because Barrie didn't have the same defensive responsibilities in junior as Bigras, so he didn't face the same challenges. The challenges that face defenseman in the NHL having to make such quick decisions, isn't the same in junior, especially for an offensive rover like Barrie who had much more room and time to do his thing against weaker defensive players, and systems.

I think it's possible he can pull it off, and I'd like to see it given a shot now because of the way the D is structured, as opposed to the past where they didn't have many good second pairing guys outside of Barrie. If it works, it would allow Beauch to play with Z on the second pairing, giving them two solid pairings for the first time in forever. It would also lead way to what I think could be a good second pairing in the future with Zadorov-Bigras, after Beauch moves on.

As for the the D in the league that can play their off side, it's still a small percentage. The guys that can do it well have a spotlight put on them in these discussions, and it's forgotten how many guys can't do it well. They can do it in a pinch, but there's enough discrepancy between their natural and off sides, to make teams put them back where they play their best. Just off hand, I would guess it's around 15% (give or take) of D in the league can play their offside well enough to do it full time.

With all the D men that have come through the Avs in the last ten years or so, there's really only been about six D men that have played their off side well enough to do it full time, and some of those are debatable as to how well they did. Clark, Leopold, Hannan (briefly), Stuart, Beauch, and now possibly Bigras.

 

[Ivan13]

Barrie played top pairing in Kelowna with Myers and regulary played against top lines.

 

[Foppa2118]

Barrie played top pairing in Kelowna with Myers and regulary played against top lines.

Not sure how often that was the case, and it's not the same as Bigras. Barrie's shifts in junior did not involve him playing much defense. He got the puck with space, and was roving. There are challenges that Bigras had to face with his style of play and role that translate to the NHL, that Barrie didn't have to face as much with his style, and his role in junior.

Not saying he can't do it, and I'd like to see it tried, but there's a reason two way defenseman like Bigras are the more likely guys to play their off side, as opposed to offensive guys like Barrie. They face challenges under pressure, that aren't one of their strong suits to begin with.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Not sure how often that was the case, and it's not the same as Bigras. Barrie's shifts in junior did not involve him playing much defense. He got the puck with space, and was roving. There are challenges that Bigras had to face with his style of play and role that translate to the NHL, that Barrie didn't have to face as much with his style, and his role in junior.

Not saying he can't do it, and I'd like to see it tried, but there's a reason two way defenseman like Bigras are the more likely guys to play their off side, as opposed to offensive guys like Barrie. They face challenges under pressure, that aren't one of their strong suits to begin with.

it's usually the more defensive guys who play on their off side. guys who can't move the puck well anyway.

i trust barrie the most to make the best decision most of the time with the puck under pressure from all avs dman. he will make mistakes on those type of situations but he will also make the most positive plays.

players like bigras (mobile two way D) usually play on their on side.

i also think you're little low on your estimation (10-15%) on dman who can play their offside well enough to do it full time. well it depends how one defines 'well'. i think less than that, even a lot less, can play as good on their off side as on their on side. but there might be around 10-15% of all dman who play all the time on their offside, just due to lack of RHD in the NHL. and in very rare cases, LHD.

 

[Hammertyme]

You can't realistically use shot proxy stats to give you anything more than a general idea. The play of teammates has a huge effect. Numbers are just that..numbers for a crowd who looks at a game as something measurable and it's really tough to measure all the skills a player needs. So shots are used as a proxy..

I did not watch much of Quincey last year. But I have not heard good things from DRW fans that I know. And looking at various reference materials, he does not look good on paper (screen). His HERO chart is worse than Tyutin's. Worse than Holden's. Worse than Weircioch's (for possession at least) And only marginally better than Guenin's. His possession numbers are crap for a top 4 guy. And his shot suppression is horrid for a supposed "shut-down" defender.

And it all happened last season. The year prior, he was not that bad. Decent even in a top 4 role. But he hit a wall. Hard.

 

[Foppa2118]

it's usually the more defensive guys who play on their off side. guys who can't move the puck well anyway.

i trust barrie the most to make the best decision most of the time with the puck under pressure from all avs dman. he will make mistakes on those type of situations but he will also make the most positive plays.

players like bigras (mobile two way D) usually play on their on side.

i also think you're little low on your estimation (10-15%) on dman who can play their offside well enough to do it full time. well it depends how one defines 'well'. i think less than that, even a lot less, can play as good on their off side as on their on side. but there might be around 10-15% of all dman who play all the time on their offside, just due to lack of RHD in the NHL. and in very rare cases, LHD.

The defensive guys do it sometimes, and do it well, I agree. Usually the smarter ones. IMO the two way guys are the best though. Probably just basically because they're better at both aspects of playing D, with, and without the puck.

To me the best guys that have done it on the Avs in the last ten years or so against more modern systems, are two way guys in Beauch and Leopold, and I think Bigras will probably be one of the better ones when it's all said and done too.

 

[Avs_19]

How often did Tyutin even play the right side? Was trying to find out on the CBJ board and I saw these posts.....

Only plays on the left. When he was rarely paired with Johnson (also a lefty), Johnson had to switch and play on the right.

Same when he was paired with Nikitin. Tyutin always stayed on the left. That might be important or it might have been just another of those things that Richards did without thinking about it.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The defensive guys do it sometimes, and do it well, I agree. Usually the smarter ones. IMO the two way guys are the best though. Probably just basically because they're better at both aspects of playing D, with, and without the puck.

To me the best guys that have done it on the Avs in the last ten years or so against more modern systems, are two way guys in Beauch and Leopold, and I think Bigras will probably be one of the better ones when it's all said and done too.

i agree it it's guys like leopold who have fared better against modern systems. pure defensive guys tend to struggle in this era.

i think bigras could be but long-term i think it makes more sense to use him on his on-side. as we've discussed, it's rare for guys to do as well on their off-side and even more rare to do better (hammer is one of the few). i think it has even hurt the progress of some players like brodin who hasn't developed since his rookie year. maybe even gone backwards. but he plays for the wild so i'm happy with that.

there's less time to make plays on off-side and bigras seems very willing to take a hit to make a play. not a bad thing but injury risk is a lot greater when you're doing that on your off-side and can't see the ice/opponent as well.

 

[Nalens Oga]

I wish our old veteran next season could be Patrik Elias instead of Iggy. This is why that Iggy contract was pointless, there are always at least a couple solid players without a contract that can still play on a 1-year deal rather than offering 3.

 

[Pokecheque]

Barrie and EJ have been used as an even-strength pairing in the past, the problem was not them, they worked great together and Barrie was fine on the left side, it was the fact that it left the bottom two pairings pretty bereft. There's also the fact that while you don't necessarily have to shelter Barrie, you kinda should.

The key is getting more balance out of the defense. The real issue last season was EJ and Beauchemin getting waaaaay overworked. At least now the Avs have a defensive corps that can ice a third pairing that's not necessarily in danger of getting completely creamed out there.

I feel like Roy was so busy having to shelter the hell out of so many guys who weren't Barrie that he didn't get a chance to really deploy Barrie the way he wanted to.

 

[cgf]

Yeah but Barrie on the left side would probably be bad, he's a natural RD, don't think i've ever seen him play on the left side.

You would if you watched the Avs play

 

[CobraAcesS]

You would if you watched the Avs play

Rotfl

 

[tucker3434]

A bit off topic, but my wife just nixed our trip to Mexico in favor a trip to Denver to see the Broncos and Avs. I'm beyond excited to see this team play. Haven't seen a game in Denver since 13-14. Hope there's a full lineup in late November.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I'm sure they will never confirm it but this would be an analytics hire.

 

[henchman21]

He's the special teams stats guy IIRC.

 

[tigervixxxen]

He's the special teams stats guy IIRC.

Looking at his website seems to be. That sounds like a great idea to get help especially in that area.

 

[garret9]

I'm sure they will never confirm it but this would be an analytics hire.

I can confirm it though.