Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round IV

[agent082]

Matthews should outplay Laine with a BIG margin, because he is almost 1 year older. So far, doesn't look like that.

Laine is outplaying everybody.

And McDavid should outplay both Laine and Matthews with a BIG margin because he is generational talent and the oldest. So far, doesn't look like that.

 

[Cor]

So here's the timeline.

- Laine Scores 3 points against Belarus.

- Laine is better than Matthews

- Matthews Scores 3 points against Belarus

- ????

- Laine scores 3 points against Germany


It makes no sense.

People need to chill. Matthews will likely put up a great performance against Germany as well, because well.... it is Germany.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

It comes down to would you prefer an offensively-minded 85 pt ceiling (pretty arbitrary number but w/e) winger or a potentially 2 way 70 pt Center. If the offensive difference was 25-30 pts you take the winger all day. I think people overestimate the difference between Laine and Matthews offensively because Laine has the flasher tools. If Matthews didn't have his wrist shot I don't think you could argue him over Laine, but the fact that he can do what he does AND score is what makes this Center vs Winger thing a main argument.

I think you are selling Matthews ceiling short.
I see Laine as a 45-50 goal 90 point peak player while not being a 2 way player and Matthews as a 80-90 point center who has a solid 2 way game.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I've tried to find a simple way to say how im feeling about these two players, and i think i got it: Matthews stands out to me more when these guys aren't scoring.

So.. for me to see them even/Laine being better is only when Laine puts them up on the board with the pace he has so far.. But that's unsustainable.

Matthews had 3 points against Belarus, which is basically the same production Laine's showed per game so far vs similar competition.

I could easily say Laine has been better so far, but at the same time i know if we played Canada and US played Germany, these guys could have the same amount of points (or at least very close) and at that point Matthews wins it for me.

So i'd rather watch more games before saying more..

But if there's still some people wishing for the Leafs to pick Laine forget it Laine would be nice, but Matthews is what they need.

 

[The Assclown]

like Seguin was the leftover

Dude, the Leafs are picking first overall and have their pick between two near-generational talents. It feels good man.

 

[Liminality]

Pronman is not a european scout, infact he is not a scout at all. But that is another conversation.

Didn't say he was.

I'd still trust him over a lot of people on HF boards tbh.

Either way I think they've both played great this past year.

 

[The Assclown]

I've tried to find a simple way to say how im feeling about these two players, and i think i got it: Matthews stands out to me more when these guys aren't scoring.

So.. for me to see them even/Laine being better is only when Laine puts them up on the board with the pace he has so far.. But that's unsustainable.

Matthews had 3 points against Belarus, which is basically the same production Laine's showed per game so far vs similar competition.

I could easily say Laine has been better so far, but at the same time i know if we played Canada and US played Germany, these guys could have the same amount of points (or at least very close) and at that point Matthews wins it for me.

So i'd rather watch more games before saying more..

But if there's still some people wishing for the Leafs to pick Laine forget it Laine would be nice, but Matthews is what they need.

Points mean absolutely nothing when you add contextual factors like who each player plays with.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

It comes down to would you prefer an offensively-minded 85 pt ceiling (pretty arbitrary number but w/e) winger or a potentially 2 way 70 pt Center. If the offensive difference was 25-30 pts you take the winger all day. I think people overestimate the difference between Laine and Matthews offensively because Laine has the flasher tools. If Matthews didn't have his wrist shot I don't think you could argue him over Laine, but the fact that he can do what he does AND score is what makes this Center vs Winger thing a main argument.

I think the bolded plays a big part of it. Laine is much more noticeable and has a "nicer" look to his play but from what little I have seen of Matthews hes the type of player who just gets it done.

Kinda reminds of how Crosby gets absolutely trashed every year (Is he finished? threads and the like) yet still seems to put up points etc. Not saying Matthews plays like Crosby just that he can get it done with out much fuss.

 

[QnebO]

Points mean absolutely nothing when you add contextual factors like who each player plays with.

Which Favors Laine when we talk about their regullar seasons.

 

[Beukeboom]

You don't have to take my word for it. The decision is clear as water. Who's play has been more impressive.

WJC all star(Picked by IIHF), Kurri award winner(Picked by Finnish Liiga), and I think most have seen all 4 games Matthews and Laine have played this tournament. WHC scoring leader with 3rd line mins.

Well I mean it is also misleading since he plays all PPs. That is also where he gets all his points.

He is a goalscorer and he scored the same amount of goals as Matthews in WJC. You can see it that way as well.

I like his competitivness thou. He was 3d behind Pulju after WJH and has just bullrushed up to second and put a margin behind.

But still, Matthews is imo the second best center since Crosby was drafted (after McDavid of course). You can not ignore that. He will be drafted #1 and if both of them reach their potential I still take Matthews. I take Crosby over Ovechkin any day of the week. You win medals with great centers, not so much by scoring wingers.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

Honestly I don't know about that, if this trend continues. It is becoming increasingly hard to ignore Laine is outplaying Matthews, at every level of hockey this year. WJC, Liiga vs NLA playoffs, and for now WHC. The small sample reasoning is losing steam.

Pretty big claim for someone who was seemingly offended by people suggesting Mathews outplayed Eichel at each respective level. You leave out the regular season in your "at every level" comparison, which is the largest sample of hockey we have of these two...strange.

I've seen opinions on Laine sky rocket in a very small amount of time. Craig Button who you used to quote religiously said on tsn radio earlier this week that some in the scouting community view Laine as the better prospect, but that those people are in the minority of the scouting community. I'd be happy with Laine at one, but it's very bizarre to see people suggest Laine is being underrated still, when a number of vocal posters insist he's definitely the top player and those posts are drowning out others.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Didn't say he was.

I'd still trust him over a lot of people on HF boards tbh.

Either way I think they've both played great this past year.

I will agree with the last part of your post. But unfortunately when it comes to who goes first. Great and greater will be discussed. You know where I stand. And its not just this, I want to project who will be the better player. Who is trending better? Age, recent play, head to head play, position all play into this. If Matthews was a winger, I don't think there would be any question who is #1 this year. That's part of the process and it complicates things. This is why I always say, if all things are equal.

 

[Lehkonen4Calder]

Dude, the Leafs are picking first overall and have their pick between two near-generational talents. It feels good man.

They are NOT generational talent or close to it (only Laine can make a case because his upside is higher and could be the next OVi)

 

[The Assclown]

No that post is not a mess. If you disagree then say you disagree and likely tell what you mean IMO.

No one will get drafted ONLY because if his position.

Indeed. But what happens when you add elite situational awareness, vision, defensive awareness, elite playmaking? Laine is not good defensively. He's poor on the breakout and his situational awareness leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why Matthews goes number one. The fact that he's a centre is the cherry on top of a wonderful cake.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

I'm curious about this as well.

So far in the worlds he seems to be racking up PP goals and points.

I think one of the Finnish posters posted the primary/secondary assists from the juniors and he had more secondary than primary I think both him and Puljujarvi had 4 secondary assists each.

What were his EV to PP point in Liiga this year?

Someone made the research a couple pages back and I think it was 9/17 regarding goals scored in RS, 5/10 in playoffs.

 

[The Assclown]

Which Favors Laine when we talk about their regullar seasons.

Of which Laine was just okay for 65-70% of. Matthews has been dominant for years now. Body of work means more than a few good months.

 

[dubey]

This is more or less how I see it as well. If he finds a way to dominate with his shot in the NHL as on big ice I think he'll be the elite sniper everyone is projecting him to become. But having watched both the NHL and European leagues concurrently for a while now, the difference is night and day in regards to how much time and space is available in the bigger rink vs smaller.

I think he's a pretty safe bet to score 15 or so on PP for that shot alone, but not sure how his game will translate on 5-on-5 for him to become a bona-fide 40 goal scorer.

Unfortunately that will be his downfall in the NHL

All time he has to get off his elite shot masks the rest of the deficiencies in his game

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Honestly, its like you guys are saying this to Laine :
It's nice that you put up 2+1 and all but oh man you didn't make yourself seen out there.

Yea I'm getting used to it, it was similiar with WJC and Liiga playoffs, Laine keeps exceding all expectations possible and makes all these historic records yet people are like "Laine has a good shot but everything else is not even close" lmao

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Pretty big claim for someone who was seemingly offended by people suggesting Mathews outplayed Eichel at each respective level. You leave out the regular season in your "at every level" comparison, which is the largest sample of hockey we have of these two...strange.

I've seen opinions on Laine sky rocket in a very small amount of time. Craig Button who you used to quote religiously said on tsn radio earlier this week that some in the scouting community view Laine as the better prospect, but that those people are in the minority of the scouting community. I'd be happy with Laine at one, but it's very bizarre to see people suggest Laine is being underrated still, when a number of vocal posters insist he's definitely the top player and those posts are drowning out others.

That was a different conversation and it is not entirely an accurate portrayal by you, regardless it was addressed already, and really it is off topic. There is no need to derail into anything other than Laine and Matthews discussion here.

 

[QnebO]

Of which Laine was just okay for 65-70% of. Matthews has been dominant for years now. Body of work means more than a few good months.

He played with 3rd then 2nd line untill the Final series. I hope I don't have to dig the names he played with.

Matthews is 2 days from being drafted last year, which gives him one full season advantage on bodywork.

 

[Liminality]

I will agree with the last part of your post. But unfortunately when it comes to who goes first. Great and greater will be discussed. You know where I stand. And its not just this, I want to project who will be the better player. Who is trending better? Age, recent play, head to head play, position all play into this. If Matthews was a winger, I don't think there would be any question who is #1 this year. That's part of the process and it complicates things. This is why I always say, if all things are equal.

But Matthews isn't a winger, he's a natural centre who ends up having more responsibilities because of that. You can't just take away a players area of expertise to try and even the playing field.

If Laine was a centre how would that have affected his development?

 

[NiL8r87]

Yea I'm getting used to it, it was similiar with WJC and Liiga playoffs, Laine keeps exceding all expectations possible and makes all these historic records yet people are like "Laine has a good shot but everything else is not even close" lmao

I don't think people are downplaying Laine's accomplishments so far (well maybe some are lol) but I think the major questions are a) Who's game is going to translate to the NHL better? and b) Who's tools would you rather have?

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Points mean absolutely nothing when you add contextual factors like who each player plays with.

Well yeah, i get what you're saying and mostly agree.

My point was, if Laine has 2x more points than Matthews then that's something i won't ignore. His job as a scoring winger is to score, and if he does that better than anyone then there has to be an argument.

But im not saying this is the case right now, i personally don't think these first 2 games hold any value as long as this comparison goes. And there's no way Laine has 2x the points when the tournament is over.

So like i said before.. i definitely understand why scouts drool over this kid. Having watched a couple hundred NHL games again this season, i just see so much good things Auston does that will translate easily. Laine is still somewhat of a question mark for me, and unless he outproduces Matthews By a big margin, i like Matthews more.

 

[IFK]

Unfortunately that will be his downfall in the NHL

All time he has to get off his elite shot masks the rest of the deficiencies in his game

This is a WHC, he just turned 18 years old. He has carry his line 5 on 5 whole year only 17 years old and FEL playoffs he was best in points in his team who win gold and he win playoffs MVP, same time his line mates has both in playoffs only 4 points. People crying here all the time Matthews line mates in WHC, it was same in FEL that Laine has only average line mates with average playmaking skills, Matthews has same time not so good "men's" league NLA best players on his sides with limitless ice time.

 

[The Assclown]

The Winter Soldier formula regarding the Leafs, their players, and their prospects:

Take overwhelming opinion on any prospect and vehemently argue against that overwhelming opinion. Rinse and repeat every year. We saw the same thing with William Nylander, Mitch Marner, and now Auston Matthews re: Patrik Laine.