Tribute Auston Matthews Discussion "the Beauty" Edition

[Dayjobdave]

Eichel is a great hockey player. This is a Matthews thread.

Matthews has been great since he arrived here, and he has been fantastic the last few weeks. I. Really glad we were fortunate enough to draft this kid, he’s amazing to watch.
I hope he stays healthy and gets 50 this year, maybe even the Rocket.

 

[Legion34]

Soooo we are back to complaining about eichel. Who in the unprecedentedly best run of his entire career.

has now scored 2 less goals and 5 more points. Than Matthews. Whom leaf “fans” are trying to run out of town and crying about every day.

i thought he had definitely “surpassed Matthews” now they are in the same tier?


Just brutal

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I didn't pick and choose situations. I just separated their ES and PP production, because looking at all situations skews things towards players who have a higher percentage of their TOI as PP time, where it is significantly easier to score.

They are, and even if you don't want to believe they are, they certainly have provided more benefit to Eichel this year. His linemates are on pace for 62 and 68 points, and that line has an incredibly inflated ES OISH%. A significant portion of Eichel's production has been secondary assists.

See what happened here? The very SECOND that real stats back your argument, that's what you used. Pacing for 62 and 68 points. I knew this would happen.
Now lets look at your even strength p/60 numbers that you value so much.
Reinhart 1.0
Oloffson 0.7

Leafs players with considerable games with Matthews?
Marner 3.6 (lol)
Nylander 1.3
Hyman 1.0

It's a joke. Sure, Johnsson didn't work out very well... but Matthews has been with MUCH better elite talent than Eichel. Even using real points, look at what Marner and Nylander are pacing at compared to Reinhart and Oloffson.

Matthews linemates have been MUCH better.

And yes, no matter how much spin you use, having 2 firsts lines makes Matthews more sheltered than a team with just one first line.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Sure, as of today he is. Matthews has still been better at every level, and the NHL up to now. Eichel took the next step, Kudos. Now Matthews can take it to his next level, and a year younger.

This has been the biggest obstacle on these boards when discussing Matthews. EVERY poster talks about how Mackinnon, Eichel, and all these players have caught up, but none of them seem to understand or think it's impossible that Matthews have another gear in him, like he has peaked at 22 lol or doesn't have the same talent to improve his overall game. Matty has also been finally put in his best situation when it comes to deployment.

Ask yourself this, is Matthews not capable of hitting another level? Is it only the Mackinnon's and Eichel's of the world who can? And what makes them different?

My biggest issue is when people dismiss Eichel like he is vastly inferior to Matthews. I am not denying Matthews' ability to take the next step or become a top 5 player in the game, but to say he is in a different league is delusional. My money is still on Matthews being the better player when it's all said and done, but the gap isn't that big.

 

[BAM]

My biggest issue is when people dismiss Eichel like he is vastly inferior to Matthews. I am not denying Matthews' ability to take the next step or become a top 5 player in the game, but to say he is in a different league is delusional. My money is still on Matthews being the better player when it's all said and done, but the gap isn't that big.

You're aware that Matthews has outproduced Eichel at literally every level at comparable age right? Why would that ever imply they are on the same tier? Eichel is in his D+5 season, similar to Mackinnon and Barkov when they broke out. Matthews is still in his D+4.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You're aware than Matthews has outproduced Eichel at literally every level at comparable ages right? Why would that ever imply they are on the same tier? Eichel is in his D+5 season, similar to Mackinnon and Barkov when they broke out. Matthews is still in his D+4.

The same way others use to bash Matthews for not getting 70 points in his first 2 seasons, Eichel has yet to score 30 goals in the NHL.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

See what happened here? The very SECOND that real stats back your argument, that's what you used. Pacing for 62 and 68 points. I knew this would happen.
Now lets look at your even strength p/60 numbers that you value so much.
Reinhart 1.0
Oloffson 0.7

Leafs players with considerable games with Matthews?
Marner 3.6 (lol)
Nylander 1.3
Hyman 1.0

It's a joke. Sure, Johnsson didn't work out very well... but Matthews has been with MUCH better elite talent than Eichel. Even using real points, look at what Marner and Nylander are pacing at compared to Reinhart and Oloffson.

Matthews linemates have been MUCH better.

And yes, no matter how much spin you use, having 2 firsts lines makes Matthews more sheltered than a team with just one first line.

Why are you comparing all the time. I like Eichel’s game but this is the Matthews show

 

[Dekes For Days]

See what happened here? The very SECOND that real stats back your argument, that's what you used. Pacing for 62 and 68 points.

*uses P/60*
"HOW DARE YOU USE THESE HORRIBLE CHERRY PICKED STATS!"
*uses points*
"HOW DARE YOU NOT USE P/60!!!"

Now lets look at your even strength p/60 numbers that you value so much.
Reinhart 1.0
Oloffson 0.7

Leafs players with considerable games with Matthews?
Marner 3.6 (lol)
Nylander 1.3
Hyman 1.0

Lol, he's played with Marner and Hyman for like 5 games. None of these numbers are right, so not sure what you're looking at.

Two things are happening with Eichel.
One, players are scoring at an inflated rate when he is on the ice. This is represented in his OISH%, and his inflated secondary assists suggest that he is not the main cause of this increase; not that whatever the cause is is sustainable anyway.
Two, Eichel's individual shooting percentage is greatly inflated. He is scoring on shots that he normally wouldn't.

having 2 firsts lines makes Matthews more sheltered than a team with just one first line.

Not by any significant amount, and the effect on production is negligible. Other teams don't just forget about Matthews.

 

[Legion34]

So to be clear.

Despite 4 seasons of “dramatically” better production over different coaches. Linemates usage and injuries. Matthews has been significantly better. Scoring 49 more goals and 30ish more points than eichel in their first 253 games.

But a hot streak that has led eichel to 2 LESS goals and 5 more points. Now they are “on the same tier” and according to leaf “fans” like stamkos. “Eichel had surpassed” matthews.


Soooooo let’s be psychotically consistent.

nylander has 17goals and 35 pts. Is he now “on the same tier” as stamkos and kucherov.

Is he better than Jonny hockey?


Let’s be consistent leaf “fans”

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Why are you comparing all the time. I like Eichel’s game but this is the Matthews show

I didn't start this argument. Some people here claimed Eichel is Matthews tier this season. Dekes for Days denied it. Hence the conversation that's ensued.

It's still about Matthews. Are he and Eichel the same tier this year? That's the current question.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Before Mat

*uses P/60*
"HOW DARE YOU USE THESE HORRIBLE CHERRY PICKED STATS!"
*uses points*
"HOW DARE YOU NOT USE P/60!!!"



Lol, he's played with Marner and Hyman for like 5 games. None of these numbers are right, so not sure what you're looking at.

Two things are happening with Eichel.
One, players are scoring at an inflated rate when he is on the ice. This is represented in his OISH%, and his inflated secondary assists suggest that he is not the main cause of this increase; not that whatever the cause is is sustainable anyway.
Two, Eichel's individual shooting percentage is greatly inflated. He is scoring on shots that he normally wouldn't.


Not by any significant amount, and the effect on production is negligible. Other teams don't just forget about Matthews.

My argument is that the very SECOND "advanced stats" don't support your narrative, you'll fall right back on regular production. If Matthews scored 60 goals/120 points this year, you would laugh at someone who claimed a 70 point player was just as good based on "5v5 p/60".

And then it happened. To support Eichel's linemates, you used REGULAR production, because that fit your agenda better this time. I called out that this would happen. And it did.

And before Matthews was with Hyman/Marner, his numbers were significantly lower than Eichel's this year. Thus proving JUST how important line mates are in the equation.

Linemates were brought up so ridiculously often to rationalize Marner and Nylanders produciton (compared to Rantanen and Pastrnak). And now look what happens when we use that precise same argument against leaf players.

And moderators... even though we are specifically discussion Matthews and comparables right now, if you deem this conversation off topic or hijacking, can you please let me know via private message? I'm just trying to figure out the rules so that I can follow them.

 

[Legion34]

I didn't start this argument. Some people here claimed Eichel is Matthews tier this season. Dekes for Days denied it. Hence the conversation that's ensued.

It's still about Matthews. Are he and Eichel the same tier this year? That's the current question.

Matthews and eichel are on the same tier. In the same way.

nylander is on the same tier as:
Kucherov. Gaudreau. Stamkos. Point.

Be psychotically consistent

 

[Ciao]

I noticed this afternoon that Matthews is one of only three forwards -- and another three defencemen -- to play all 41 games this season. Pretty good for a player who received a lot of criticism for being injury prone.

I also noticed he has 27 goals in those 41 games. That speaks for itself and looks good to me.

I don't know what else anyone could want from this young player.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I also noticed he has 27 goals in those 41 games. That speaks for itself and looks good to me.

I don't know what else anyone could want from this young player.

To put that in prospective on January 1, 2017 he had 20 goals and ended up with 40.

On January 1, 2020 he already has 27 and is on pace for 50.

 

[IPS]

So to be clear.

Despite 4 seasons of “dramatically” better production over different coaches. Linemates usage and injuries. Matthews has been significantly better. Scoring 49 more goals and 30ish more points than eichel in their first 253 games.

But a hot streak that has led eichel to 2 LESS goals and 5 more points. Now they are “on the same tier” and according to leaf “fans” like stamkos. “Eichel had surpassed” matthews.


Soooooo let’s be psychotically consistent.

nylander has 17goals and 35 pts. Is he now “on the same tier” as stamkos and kucherov.

Is he better than Jonny hockey?


Let’s be consistent leaf “fans”

I swear the main boards has brainwashed some Leafs fans into really believing our players are inherently inferior.

Congrats to Eichel, he's had a hell of a streak. But if we view their entire careers up to Eichel's hot-streak, Matthews has unquestionably been the superior player AINEC.

But I realize the debate's been dishonest from day 1 - the main board was psychotically obsessed with comparing Matthews' rookie year to Eichel's sophomore year while completely ignoring Eichel's rookie year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Matthews and eichel are on the same tier. In the same way.

nylander is on the same tier as:
Kucherov. Gaudreau. Stamkos. Point.

Be psychotically consistent

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying Nylander hasn't been as good as Gaudreau this year? I would say that he HAS been as Gaudreau this year. Good for Nylander.

And Eichel has been as good as Matthews this year. Good for Eichel.

Will it keep up, for Nylander and/or Eichel? Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Ciao]

To put that in prospective on January 1, 2017 he had 20 goals and ended up with 40.

On January 1, 2020 he already has 27 and is on pace for 50.

54.

He could join the Rick and Dave club, or maybe even build a new clubhouse.

 

[Dekes For Days]

My argument is that the very SECOND "advanced stats" don't support your narrative, you'll fall right back on regular production.

No, it's the second you start coming in with your nonsense, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to provide per 60 stats and explanation of method to somebody who endlessly complains about them in their most basic form.

If Matthews scored 60 goals/120 points this year, you would laugh at someone who claimed a 70 point player was just as good based on "5v5 p/60".

I have been extremely consistent. Stop assuming and misrepresenting my position on theoretical things. I give credit to players on other teams that are undervalued in similar ways.

To support Eichel's linemates, you used REGULAR production, because that fit your agenda better this time.

I don't pick and choose to support an agenda. I have no idea if it helps or hurts. I didn't bother to check, because you never bother to accept it. Because something something UNPRECEDENTED.

Fact is it's clear that Eichel has not been held back in production by what other players on the ice have been doing while he is on the ice this year. Quite the opposite.

And before Matthews was with Hyman/Marner, his numbers were significantly lower than Eichel's this year. Thus proving JUST how important line mates are in the equation.

First, no, Eichel's numbers weren't "significantly higher", and he was always bad in primary points. Eichel had even more inflated metrics a couple weeks ago.
Yes, linemates are important. I have said this all along. You're the one who has endlessly argued against that.
That said, Matthews was due for an increase in scoring, and Eichel was due for a substantial decrease, so this is far from just linemates. This is largely them returning to their normal.

You trying to claim Marner as Matthews' linemate for the season to date is just gold. Pure gold.

 

[IPS]

Linemates are great but offensive opportunity trumps all when it comes to finding out who's the better offensive player.

Eichel got far more offensive opportunity than Matthews in his career up until Keefe became Leafs coach.

 

[Legion34]

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying Nylander hasn't been as good as Gaudreau this year? I would say that he HAS been as Gaudreau this year. Good for Nylander.

And Eichel has been as good as Matthews this year. Good for Eichel.

Will it keep up, for Nylander and/or Eichel? Time will tell I suppose.

I would say Matthews has clearly been the better player than eichel throughout their careers. Eichel has played as well this year. But one hot streak does not change their league standing s.

Eichel didn’t magically become as good or better. Even if he is playing as well now.

similarly. Nylander has not accomplished anything like point. Kuch. Stamkos. Or gaudreau


He has played as well as them over a hot streak but that doesn’t change anything


What i find interesting is that leaf “fans”
Have no issue claiming eichel and Matthews are on the same tier. Or Matthews has been surpassed.

When they won’t say nylander has surpassed those

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I didn't start this argument. Some people here claimed Eichel is Matthews tier this season. Dekes for Days denied it. Hence the conversation that's ensued.

It's still about Matthews. Are he and Eichel the same tier this year? That's the current question.

Well the stats say they are in scoring. If you took the two of them this season’s end and they were after putting up same points. I would still take Matthews. Bias? Darn right it is

 

[LeafsNation75]

54.

He could join the Rick and Dave club, or maybe even build a new clubhouse.

If Matthews just gets 50 I will be happy, so anything above that number is a bonus.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I swear the main boards has brainwashed some Leafs fans into really believing our players are inherently inferior.

Congrats to Eichel, he's had a hell of a streak. But if we view their entire careers up to Eichel's hot-streak, Matthews has unquestionably been the superior player AINEC.

But I realize the debate's been dishonest from day 1 - the main board was psychotically obsessed with comparing Matthews' rookie year to Eichel's sophomore year while completely ignoring Eichel's rookie year.

The main board use to be obessed with Matthews not scoring at least 70 points in his first 2 seasons or getting more than 30 assists.

 

[unitedstars87]

Soooo we are back to complaining about eichel. Who in the unprecedentedly best run of his entire career.

has now scored 2 less goals and 5 more points. Than Matthews. Whom leaf “fans” are trying to run out of town and crying about every day.

i thought he had definitely “surpassed Matthews” now they are in the same tier?


Just brutal

I’d take Matthews any day but Eichel has one of the worst supporting casts, coaching and ownership to work with.

 

[saffronleaf]

Matthews just seems to me like someone who absolutely thrives off of people doubting him lol.

I'm sure he's had doubters the moment he picked up a hockey stick as a kid in Arizona. His story is pretty remarkable.