News Article: Auston Matthews - August 1st., Contract Crickets

[Dekes For Days]

When you are out there defensively to kill a 6 on 5 with an empty net, you are basically killing a penalty with the penalty of icing, so a shot into an EN from distance carries risk. We've all previously heard you talk about the value of penalty killing re: Marner on repeat, so I'm sure you be applying some of that appreciation for successfully killing off an EN, aka by scoring a goal even if it isn't a direct translation.
Finally, it's not so much that we're having a celebration of EN goals, as they don't really need to be discredited as a part of the game as any other kind of goal.

Aho is geting credit for PKing. You can even personally extend that credit to being trusted in 5v6 situations if you really want.
But none of that is going to change the fact that empty net goals and points do not hold the same value as goals and points against a goalie.
They are largely representative of the situations a team happens to find themselves in, and who is out there in those moments in which role.
They are not representative of a player's ability to generate offense in any kind of usual game situation, and that's what teams are paying for offensively.

 

[Sypher04]

The guy practically lives at the Leafs offices, golf's with active agents and management and is a card carrying alumnus. Cmon Syph you should be above disingenuousness

Not disingenuous at all. I stand by my statement.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Aho is geting credit for PKing. You can even personally extend that credit to being trusted in 5v6 situations if you really want.
But none of that is going to change the fact that empty net goals and points do not hold the same value as goals and points against a goalie.
They are largely representative of the situations a team happens to find themselves in, and who is out there in those moments in which role.
They are not representative of a player's ability to generate offense in any kind of usual game situation, and that's what teams are paying for offensively.

Doesn't AM getting credit for doing all this and more for playing the entire season with an injury affecting his skating and a wrist injury that limits his shooting and passing. For that based on all his fans he deserves 13.5+ for trying. He also states he wants to win a Stanley, that counts also, oh and it is reported by all the talking heads he loves TO, amazing.

 

[Racer88]

Doesn't AM getting credit for doing all this and more for playing the entire season with an injury affecting his skating and a wrist injury that limits his shooting and passing. For that based on all his fans he deserves 13.5+ for trying. He also states he wants to win a Stanley, that counts also, oh and it is reported by all the talking heads he loves TO, amazing.

Soooooo we should give a guy that is always hurt the highest AVV in the league ……….hmmmmmm

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Every day this guy remains unsigned just confirms what everybody knew already.

Matthews is all about Matthews.

They've been given so much already. And it's still not enough. They aren't grateful for what they have.

So they expect more and more and more.

It isn't about winning. It's about attitude. And these guys all have a piss poor one of those.

It's definitely not about winning for them.

They take the fans appreciation for granted. When really they have no right expecting others to take pride in that which they have no pride themselves. It's all take, take, take, and no give for these guys.

With his outrageous demands for special privileges, along with expecting to become the world's highest paid player, Matthews especially comes across as spoiled and selfish.

What Matthews wants, Matthews gets.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Soooooo we should give a guy that is always hurt the highest AVV in the league .....

We should give a guy who put up the best pre-signing period for a UFA signing a legal contract in cap era history while playing half of his sample hurt an AAV that is consistent with that. We should theoretically be giving him the biggest UFA contract in the cap era, but we're not even doing close to that.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Every day this guy remains unsigned just confirms what everybody knew already.

Matthews is all about Matthews.

They've been given so much already. And it's still not enough. They aren't grateful for what they have.

So they expect more and more and more.

It isn't about winning. It's about attitude. And these guys all have a piss poor one of those.

It's definitely not about winning for them.

They take the fans appreciation for granted. When really they have no right expecting others to take pride in that which they have no pride themselves. It's all take, take, take, and no give for these guys.

With his outrageous demands for special privileges, along with expecting to become the world's highest paid player, Matthews especially comes across as spoiled and selfish.

What Matthews wants, Matthews gets.

And we get all this complete with bad wrist and knee/hip...hmmm

We should give a guy who put up the best pre-signing period for a UFA signing a legal contract in cap era history while playing half of his sample hurt an AAV that is consistent with that. We should theoretically be giving him the biggest UFA contract in the cap era, but we're not even doing close to that.

You don't have any idea what we are close to...
Nor do you have any idea about his chronic injuries.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You don't have any idea what we are close to...

We don't know what he'll sign for yet, but all reports and speculation suggest he's not going to be anywhere close to a league max 20% contract.

Nor do you have any idea about his chronic injuries.

We know he was hurt at times throughout that pre-signing sample. That's really all I said.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

And we get all this complete with bad wrist and knee/hip...hmmm

And both shoulders have been dislocated too....

 

[ULF_55]

Listen the best weather is after the first round anyway.

Enjoy the 88 games and then go outside.

Never hurts to have a perennial 50 goal scorer to watch, even if is it only regular season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Listen the best weather is after the first round anyway.

Enjoy the 88 games and then go outside.

Never hurts to have a perennial 50 goal scorer to watch, even if is it only regular season.

The most meaningful hockey games are also after the first round. The most I've ever seen in 50+ years is the 3rd round a few times, even that has happened so rarely that I'd be thrilled to experience it again no matter what the weather conditions are.

 

[ULF_55]

The most meaningful hockey games are also after the first round. The most I've ever seen in 50+ years is the 3rd round a few times, even that has happened so rarely that I'd be thrilled to experience it again no matter what the weather conditions are.

Funny eh, I've seen wins, and remember 1 Cup (too young to remember others but watched since early 60's), but never seen them win 3 rounds.

They need some luck, and leadership.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I don't even understand why some people are choosing to put down empty net goals to advance a pointless ranking of two very similar players...

To have an empty net situation, your team is likely holding a 1 to 2 goal lead. You are trusted to defend a 6 on 5 situation, and if you're scoring an EN chances are you're walking away shortly win a win.

Auston Matthews himself scored 4 EN goals in his 60 goal year. What's the problem again?

So @Dekes For Days told me that Marner is more valuable than Rantanen (even though they have VERY eqal stats) because of the "pk" and "selke votes".

So when he said Aho and Nylader are equally "comparable", I was excited to hear his reasoning.

Aho scores significantly more goals and points (and Dekes always tells me one outlier year doesn't count), plays center, plays on the pk, and gets selke votes.

But I knew as a fact Dekes will still try and claim that they are equals. I was excited.... literally EXCITED... to see what madness he came up with.

And after scouring the depths of stats, what he came up with was "empty net points". I honestly tried refreshing my screen to see if it was true. Then I thought maybe it was a parody account. But nope. It's the truth. Empty net points. That's what Dekes resorted to. For realsies.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Weight gain issue ? Really ?

He was hurt last summer and did not train properly and he ballooned coming into camp .. it took him 20-25 games to get back to game shape .. not saying he doesn't train hard but with his injury history it may again .. dude has a huge frame a big boned dude who can pack it on

 

[Boxscore]

Every day this guy remains unsigned just confirms what everybody knew already.

Matthews is all about Matthews.

They've been given so much already. And it's still not enough. They aren't grateful for what they have.

So they expect more and more and more.

It isn't about winning. It's about attitude. And these guys all have a piss poor one of those.

It's definitely not about winning for them.

They take the fans appreciation for granted. When really they have no right expecting others to take pride in that which they have no pride themselves. It's all take, take, take, and no give for these guys.

With his outrageous demands for special privileges, along with expecting to become the world's highest paid player, Matthews especially comes across as spoiled and selfish.

What Matthews wants, Matthews gets.

Matthews is one of those "modern day athletes" who really haven't crept into the NHL yet in large numbers. He considers himself a celebrity, and a brand, and it's all about him, and maximizing his pay days. He's not driven by winning a Cup or being part of a winning team over his career. We see these players in every other sport, especially the NBA and MLB, but we're not used to them in the NHL. Hockey players have notoriously been a different breed -- from playing severely injured, to taking less money, to staying mostly drama-free off the ice, to putting their teams first. Matthews just isn't that guy. His priorities are living a celebrity life, hanging around celebrities, wearing bizarre clothing, and carrying man purses. Hockey is a means to an end for him. He's still an extremely talented hockey player, but he'll never be that heart-and-soul leader like Clark, playoff battler like Gilmour, and he'll never do the Leafs any favors on the contract front. It is what it is.

Never hurts to have a perennial 50 goal scorer to watch, even if is it only regular season.

This is true. I've said, this core makes the regular season a lot of fun. But they also lead to playoff disappointment.

 

[Bomber0104]

So @Dekes For Days told me that Marner is more valuable than Rantanen (even though they have VERY eqal stats) because of the "pk" and "selke votes".

So when he said Aho and Nylader are equally "comparable", I was excited to hear his reasoning.

Aho scores significantly more goals and points (and Dekes always tells me one outlier year doesn't count), plays center, plays on the pk, and gets selke votes.

But I knew as a fact Dekes will still try and claim that they are equals. I was excited.... literally EXCITED... to see what madness he came up with.

And after scouring the depths of stats, what he came up with was "empty net points". I honestly tried refreshing my screen to see if it was true. Then I thought maybe it was a parody account. But nope. It's the truth. Empty net points. That's what Dekes resorted to. For realsies.

"I said goal-scorers are more valuable and centers are more valuable, all else equal, and that has remained true throughout. That doesn't mean you ignore everything else about the players. And Marner didn't get the same contract as Matthews, so I frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Please understand the arguments/discussions you are referencing before complaining about them."

It's amazing this account thinks posters haven't noticed all of the glaringly contradictory garbage it's been polluting all over this forum.

Take anything it says, and you can find something that argues the direct opposite as long as it's pro-Leafs player / Dubas....

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Matthews is one of those "modern day athletes" who really haven't crept into the NHL yet in large numbers. He considers himself a celebrity, and a brand, and it's all about him, and maximizing his pay days. He's not driven by winning a Cup or being part of a winning team over his career. We see these players in every other sport, especially the NBA and MLB, but we're not used to them in the NHL. Hockey players have notoriously been a different breed -- from playing severely injured, to taking less money, to staying mostly drama-free off the ice, to putting their teams first. Matthews just isn't that guy. His priorities are living a celebrity life, hanging around celebrities, wearing bizarre clothing, and carrying man purses. Hockey is a means to an end for him. He's still an extremely talented hockey player, but he'll never be that heart-and-soul leader like Clark, playoff battler like Gilmour, and he'll never do the Leafs any favors on the contract front. It is what it is.


This is true. I've said, this core makes the regular season a lot of fun. But they also lead to playoff disappointment.

Thanks for the response.

Matthews seems to have his priorities mixed up.

He put himself ahead of the team the last time. I don't see any reason to expect different now. I really think this guy has a lot of growing up to do.

He's a name on the back, not the one on the front, kind of player.

 

[Niagara Bill]

We don't know what he'll sign for yet, but all reports and speculation suggest he's not going to be anywhere close to a league max 20% contract.

We know he was hurt at times throughout that pre-signing sample. That's really all I said.

I get that all? I find it strange that fans accept talking heads assessment of the monetary situation but no one questions his physical ability to play at a top level, even the talking heads dont question it, likely because they are mostly ex players or too close to players and agents to speak reality.
Based on what we know for sure, 2 years max to prove he can physically stand up to his status. I would rather worry about over paying in 2 years, than committ 55m for 5 or110m for 8 to someone who cannot meet the standards.

 

[Boxscore]

Just when you thought the /60 stats were getting unbearably stupid, here comes the "empty net points don't count" rhetoric.

Which is why people need to watch the games and study the players, not just watch YouTube clips or highlights. If you watch games long enough, a player's value will begin to crystalize. You'll see the body language, the added burst of hustle or not giving up on a play that doesn't always reflect in advanced stats. You'll see the way they command the ice, fight for space, rally their teammates, or do the little things that matter when they matter most.

For example, people throw out "Auston Matthews hits numbers" but can any of us recall these hits as big hits that altar the outcome of a game, sway momentum, set a physical tone, or intimidate the opposition? I certainly can't. Yet Wendel Clark and Eric Lindros haven't played in years and I can vividly remember many of their hits like they happened an hour ago. In the case of Matthews, his "hits" are simply him finishing a check and rubbing into a guy -- they aren't impact hits, they aren't game-changers, they don't excite the fans or intimidate the opponent. They are hollow stats and very misleading.

As others said, empty net goals factor in a ton of gray area. Does the player win a big draw that leads to the EN goal? Do they fight off an opponent, when other players wouldn't have? Do they sacrifice their body to block a shot first? There's so much that goes into it, none of these are cut-and-dry. One thing is for sure, if you are a player who is on the ice protecting a lead with 2-3 minutes left, there's a good chance the coach has a ton of faith in you in crunch time. And that speaks volumes as well.

 

[notbias]

Matthews is one of those "modern day athletes" who really haven't crept into the NHL yet in large numbers. He considers himself a celebrity, and a brand, and it's all about him, and maximizing his pay days. He's not driven by winning a Cup or being part of a winning team over his career. We see these players in every other sport, especially the NBA and MLB, but we're not used to them in the NHL. Hockey players have notoriously been a different breed -- from playing severely injured, to taking less money, to staying mostly drama-free off the ice, to putting their teams first. Matthews just isn't that guy. His priorities are living a celebrity life, hanging around celebrities, wearing bizarre clothing, and carrying man purses. Hockey is a means to an end for him. He's still an extremely talented hockey player, but he'll never be that heart-and-soul leader like Clark, playoff battler like Gilmour, and he'll never do the Leafs any favors on the contract front. It is what it is.

What players took less money?

Rarely does it happen.

This is all just fan fiction.

 

[IPS]

What players took less money?

Rarely does it happen.

This is all just fan fiction.

McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby according to the last strands of Dubasites around here.

 

[notbias]

McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby according to the last strands of Dubasites around here.

so 2 players because they wanted to win and one based on superstition? And this is in the last 10+ years.

Crosby took a 5 year deal first that would be the equivalent of 14.1 when Matthews signed.

Not seeing a lot of discounts...

I don't even know if MacKinnon took a discount (he for sure didn't on his first contract).

 

[Dekes For Days]

So @Dekes For Days told me that Marner is more valuable than Rantanen (even though they have VERY eqal stats) because of the "pk" and "selke votes".
So when he said Aho and Nylader are equally "comparable", I was excited to hear his reasoning.
Aho scores significantly more goals and points (and Dekes always tells me one outlier year doesn't count), plays center, plays on the pk, and gets selke votes.
But I knew as a fact Dekes will still try and claim that they are equals. I was excited.... literally EXCITED... to see what madness he came up with.
And after scouring the depths of stats, what he came up with was "empty net points". I honestly tried refreshing my screen to see if it was true. Then I thought maybe it was a parody account. But nope. It's the truth. Empty net points.

Marner and Rantanen do not have "VERY equal stats". Marner is a much better 5v5 producer, and an equivalent if not better PP producer. Then we add on the PKing impacts and the massively better defensive play, and it's easy to understand why he makes more.

As for Aho vs. Nylander, Aho does not score significantly more goals and points. Even just taking their raw production without context, they have an identical points per game over the past 3 years, and a goals per game within 0.03 of each other. Against actual goalies, Nylander scores more goals and points.

Using the exact same considerations as we did in Marner vs. Rantanen, we end up a different scenario than Marner vs. Rantanen. Unlike in the Marner vs. Rantanen example, where Marner was better than Rantanen at everything, in the Aho vs. Nylander example, one side is better at some things, and the other side is better at some things. Nylander is a better 5v5 producer, and a better PP producer, while Aho brings additional PK impacts, and slightly better defensive play. This makes them relatively comparable overall, and it makes sense that their contracts will be in a closer range to each other.

As for empty net points, I've talked about them and how they can skew perception of offensive impact for years. Not sure why you think this is new, or why anybody would choose not to acknowledge the difference between goals/points produced against a goalie, and ones produced by lobbing a puck into an empty net, in a scenario where there is a significant discrepancy and impact on the results.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I find it strange that fans accept talking heads assessment of the monetary situation but no one questions his physical ability to play at a top level

I also find it strange that people accept random media personalities speculating about contract negotiations as fact, but that doesn't mean we should also add random speculation about Matthews' physical status to the mix as well. The important thing is that the team knows his status, and they would.

 

[Boxscore]

Marner and Rantanen do not have "VERY equal stats".

Cool. And I'd still take Rantanen 10x out of 10 over Marner.