Speculation: Atlantic Division Predictions

[zeke]

Where are you pulling you rank ordered stats for standings Zeke? NHL.com has a little number on the left side that is supposed to mean something.
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(It doesn't mean anything. The NHL itself ignores it when they actually have to determine something like current waivers priority, and anything else).

 

[Gary Nylund]

Where are you pulling you rank ordered stats for standings Zeke? NHL.com has a little number on the left side that is supposed to mean something.

It means "something", it's ordered by who has the most points. It's unfortunate that the NHL lacks the common sense to show the standings in a logical way, like the NBA and MLB for example but if people have some common sense, they know that games in hand skew the standings and look for a place where they can see the standings ordered by PTS%. Like this place - 2021-22 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[ACC1224]

Where are you pulling you rank ordered stats for standings Zeke? NHL.com has a little number on the left side that is supposed to mean something.
View attachment 486747

With the disparity in games I wonder if the NHL uses PTS or PTS % when determining the order teams can make waiver claims?
I assume PTS%, it wouldn't be fair the other way, but not really sure.

 

[Notsince67]

The easier thing would be to realize that points percentage is the only thing that matters. Points are literally irrelevant.

At the end of 82gms, points percentage and points are exactly the same standings, so that's the only time points are actually useful - but even then, you don't need them, because points percentage tells you the standings anyways.

At any point prior to the end of the season, when teams have all played different amounts of games, then points percentage is always the only thing that matters - and the NHL uses points percentage at all times - I.e. when determining waivers order, or when determining final standings and draft order in seasons where all teams haven't played the same amount of games.

Points Percentage is the only number that matters for the standings. Realize that, and then be consistent regardless of whether it makes the Leafs look better or worse.

If you find a leafs-hating poster switching between points and points percentage just to make the Leafs look worse, then make fun of him.

The only thing that matters is a literal translation of what place in standings are.

Pull up the league standings and #2 is the leafs.
If you want to take the data and order it in a different way, it isn't standings anymore.
If you put the teams in random order, it isnt standings anymore.
If you don't like the semantics then I guess....

 

[Gary Nylund]

With the disparity in games I wonder if the NHL uses PTS or PTS % when determining the order teams can make waiver claims?
I assume PTS%, it wouldn't be fair the other way, but not really sure.

It does seem like a logical assumption, I obviously don't know for sure either.

The only thing that matters is a literal translation of what place in standings are.

Actually, the standings in December don't matter at all. But if you're really sure that ordering by PTS% is illogical, perhaps you should fire off a letter to the NBA/MLB/NFL, if they realize they're all been doing it wrong all these years then maybe they'll fix it and send you some swag by way of thanks, wouldn't that be cool! Let us know how it goes. Oh, and good luck.

 

[Notsince67]

With the disparity in games I wonder if the NHL uses PTS or PTS % when determining the order teams can make waiver claims?
I assume PTS%, it wouldn't be fair the other way, but not really sure.

Good question. I have no idea but it is a very relevant question. I just find the insistence that the % advocates to have the points advocates qualify their language regarding standings opposed to the other way around to be a bit annoying. In the long run it is pretty meaningless but it appears to be yet another way to temper enthusiasm by the Debbie Downers

 

[Notsince67]

It does seem like a logical assumption, I obviously don't know for sure either.



Actually, the standings in December don't matter at all. But if you're really sure that ordering by PTS% is illogical, perhaps you should fire off a letter to the NBA/MLB/NFL, if they realize they're all been doing it wrong all these years then maybe they'll fix it and send you some swag by way of thanks, wouldn't that be cool! Let us know how it goes. Oh, and good luck.

You are completely mischaracterizing my point yet again. Gas lighting.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are completely mischaracterizing my point yet again. Gas lighting.

Well I'm sorry dude, mischaracterizing your point was certainly not my intention. You said this:

The only thing that matters is a literal translation of what place in standings are.

And I responded with this:

Actually, the standings in December don't matter at all.

So ... what exactly is it that I am "mischaracterizing"?

 

[Confucius]

The easier thing would be to realize that points percentage is the only thing that matters. Points are literally irrelevant.

At the end of 82gms, points percentage and points are exactly the same standings, so that's the only time points are actually useful - but even then, you don't need them, because points percentage tells you the standings anyways.

At any point prior to the end of the season, when teams have all played different amounts of games, then points percentage is always the only thing that matters - and the NHL uses points percentage at all times - I.e. when determining waivers order, or when determining final standings and draft order in seasons where all teams haven't played the same amount of games.

Points Percentage is the only number that matters for the standings. Realize that, and then be consistent regardless of whether it makes the Leafs look better or worse.

If you find a leafs-hating poster switching between points and points percentage just to make the Leafs look worse, then make fun of him.

Well why doesn't NHL.com position teams by percentage, I do know they list the stat but they choose to position teams by points on their site?

 

[Notsince67]

Well I'm sorry dude, mischaracterizing your point was certainly not my intention. You said this:



And I responded with this:



So ... what exactly is it that I am "mischaracterizing"?

Nice clip of your quote...you continued...But if you're really sure that ordering by PTS% is illogical....

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well why doesn't NHL.com position teams by percentage, I do know they list the stat but they choose to position teams by points on their site?

They try to simplify things as much as possible for the casual fan, and it's more straightforward to follow playoff races and such when you're counting out whole numbers instead of calculating percentages in your head. Also, the NHL is archaic in how they operate in most aspects. But even they realize that point percentage is what actually matters.

 

[zeke]

The only thing that matters is a literal translation of what place in standings are.

Pull up the league standings and #2 is the leafs.
If you want to take the data and order it in a different way, it isn't standings anymore.
If you put the teams in random order, it isnt standings anymore.
If you don't like the semantics then I guess....
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The NHL doesn't even use points standings. They just think their fans are too dumb to change.

 

[zeke]

Well why doesn't NHL.com position teams by percentage, I do know they list the stat but they choose to position teams by points on their site?

They must think their fans are dumb or something. Or at least too resistant to change. I don't know, I think it's silly.

Because anytime the NHL has to actually use the standings to determine stuff - they use points percentage. Which makes sense, because it's the only accurate method.

Using just points is like using just goals for and ignoring goals against. Every loss has a cost in points lost that the points standings simply ignore completely. doesn't make sense.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nice clip of your quote...you continued...But if you're really sure that ordering by PTS% is illogical....

And ... what's your problem?

 

[zeke]

They try to simplify things as much as possible for the casual fan, and it's more straightforward to follow playoff races and such when you're counting out whole numbers instead of calculating percentages in your head. Also, the NHL is archaic in how they operate in most aspects. But even they realize that point percentage is what actually matters.

Is it simpler?

every other sport uses percentage standings. the fans don't seem to have any problem with it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

With the disparity in games I wonder if the NHL uses PTS or PTS % when determining the order teams can make waiver claims?

It does seem like a logical assumption, I obviously don't know for sure either.

You guys could learn a thing or two from Zeke, who answered your question a couple posts above. The NHL uses point percentage.

 

[zeke]

You guys could learn a thing or two from Zeke, who answered your question a couple posts above. The NHL uses point percentage.

ACC is pretending to ignore me. So he repeats things I post that he obviously just read in my posts because he's not actually ignoring me. It's very cute.

 

[Confucius]

They must think their fans are dumb or something. Or at least too resistant to change. I don't know, I think it's silly.

Because anytime the NHL has to actually use the standings to determine stuff - they use points percentage.

maybe it has to do with the fact you can get points in the nhl by losing. An example to keep it simple. team A plays 30 games and loses all in OT they won 0 percent, but earn 30 points
Team B plays 30 games wins 10 but loses 20 all in regulation time winning % 33 but only gets 20 points. Team A advances more points smaller win percentage.

 

[zeke]

maybe it has to do with the fact you can get points in the nhl by losing. An example to keep it simple. team A plays 30 games and loses all in OT they won 0 percent, but earn 30 points
Team B plays 30 games wins 10 but loses 20 all in regulation time winning % 33 but only gets 20 points. Team A advances more points smaller win percentage.

same thing happens with ties, not just with loser points.

so the existence of ties (or any other single point games) has always meant that the NHL has to use points percentage instead of win percentage.

 

[Notsince67]

And ... what's your problem?

You need a definition for mischaracterizing or you don't understand why someone takes exception to being mischaracterized?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is it simpler?

More inaccurate, but I think a bit simpler for a casual fan, at least for how hockey media likes discussing playoff races and such. Honestly, the whole point system itself is pretty ridiculous though.

ACC is pretending to ignore me. So he repeats things I post that he obviously just read in my posts because he's not actually ignoring me. It's very cute.

Oh I know; it's not just you. It's amazing how many posts are directly addressing something just said by individuals that are supposedly "easy to ignore".

 

[zeke]

More inaccurate, but I think a bit simpler for a casual fan, at least for how hockey media likes discussing playoff races and such. Honestly, the whole point system itself is pretty ridiculous though.

I think that's just because how they learned the game. Because like I said every other sport uses percentage standings and nobody has any problem understanding it.

Oh I know; it's not just you. It's amazing how many posts are directly addressing something just said by individuals that are supposedly "easy to ignore".

must be exhausting.

 

[Notsince67]

The NHL doesn't even use points standings. They just think their fans are too dumb to change.

And why would point standings be so much more compelling? There is certainly no more clarity on the the quality of teams behind or in front or the odds of continuing at a given trend.
My advocacy is for communicative purposes....yours is pretty unclear. If you want to to be less "dumb" (your words) talk about playoff probability rankings or 1st in division rankings, cite a probabilistic playoff odds model like money puck. Rank ordering standings in the method you choose if you like but understand that it requires qualification. My citing is a reference to published standings in clearly delineated orders.

 

[zeke]

And why would point standings be so much more compelling? There is certainly no more clarity on the the quality of teams behind or in front or the odds of continuing at a given trend.
My advocacy is for communicative purposes....yours is pretty unclear. If you want to to be less "dumb" (your words) talk about playoff probability rankings or 1st in division rankings, cite a probabilistic playoff odds model like money puck. Rank ordering standings in the method you choose if you like but understand that it requires qualification. My citing is a reference to published standings in clearly delineated orders.

All I care about is accuracy and truth.

the Points standings are inaccurate, and a half-truth. they attempt to rank teams by their win-loss record but they actually ignore losses completely, which makes zero sense.

The points percentage standings are fully accurate, and list teams in order of who has the actual better record. This is why the NHL uses points percentage when it actually has to determine something based on teams' records.

 

[Gary Nylund]

maybe it has to do with the fact you can get points in the nhl by losing. An example to keep it simple. team A plays 30 games and loses all in OT they won 0 percent, but earn 30 points
Team B plays 30 games wins 10 but loses 20 all in regulation time winning % 33 but only gets 20 points. Team A advances more points smaller win percentage.

It's points %, not win %.

You need a definition for mischaracterizing or you don't understand why someone takes exception to being mischaracterized?

Explain why you think you're being mischaracterized.