ATD 2022 Draft Thread II

[RustyRazor]

Portland Penguins select Vladimir Petrov.

Vladimir Petrov shoots and scores! And Donna needs a donut!

 

[Professor What]

I can't believe this guy fell this far, but he's falling no further. A very big guy for his time, and the first player to win multiple Harts joins the TARDIS. Nels Stewart!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can't believe this guy fell this far, but he's falling no further. A very big guy for his time, and the first player to win multiple Harts joins the TARDIS. Nels Stewart!
View attachment 506872

Shit defensive centers generally fall far.

Made even more so by the glut of Cs in a smaller draft.

One of my considerations going into this draft was that I was going to wait forever to draft a #2C because I knew some good but flawed ones would drop. But obviously I threw that plan away when I drafted Malone.

But yes, obviously good value.

And he's at least somewhat believable at LW at this point. I'm still not entirely sure exactly how much value to give him there though.

 

[tinyzombies]

Marty Barry
Harry Grayson said: "...big and strong and a hard worker, is as fine a playmaker as he is a defensive player."

Born: Quebec City; Hometown: Montreal, QC

Adjusted Height/Weight: 6'2", 210 lbs.

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1936, 1937)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (1937)
1st Team All-Star (1937)


Offensive Accomplishments:
Points - 2nd(1936), 3rd(1937), 4th(1934), 4th(1939), 7th(1933), 8th(1935), 11th(1932), 13th(1931), 18th(1930)
Goals - 2nd(1934), 3rd(1933), 3rd(1936), 8th(1932), 8th(1935), 9th(1931), 10th(1937), 16th(1939)
Assists - 2nd(1937), 4th(1939), 7th(1936), 12th(1938), 14th(1932), 16th(1935)

Play-off Points - 1st(1930), 1st(1937), 5th(1936), 6th(1933)
Play-off Goals - 1st(1937), 2nd(1930), 4th(1939), 6th(1933), 10th(1936)
Play-off Assists - 1st(1937), 2nd(1930), 2nd(1936), 6th(1933)


5 Year Peak: 1933 to 1937
1st in Points, 106% of 2nd place Charlie Conacher
1st in Goals, 101% of 2nd place Charlie Conacher
6th in Assists, 88% of 2nd place Art Chapman

1st in Play-off Points

10 Year Peak: 1930 to 1939
2nd in Points, 99% of 1st place Nels Stewart
3rd in Goals, 91% of 2nd place Charlie Conacher
2nd in Assists, 88% of 1st place Frank Boucher

1st in Play-off Points


Scoring Percentages:
Points - 100(1936), 98(1937), 93(1939), 91(1934), 85(1935), 84(1933), 76(1932), 72(1931), 66(1938), 53(1930)

Best 6 Seasons: 551


​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Marty Barry
Harry Grayson said: "...big and strong and a hard worker, is as fine a playmaker as he is a defensive player."

​

Wait, does that quote mean he was pretty average at both?

Good value though; fantastic goal scorer and playoff performer, and not bad at the rest.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And he's at least somewhat believable at LW at this point. I'm still not entirely sure exactly how much value to give him there though.

To expand on this, by this point we know Stewart played a higher percentage of his career at LW than Alex Delvecchio did. And Stewart's best season (his rookie year) was spent largely at LW.

The downside is that after the forward pass was allowed, he was strictly a plodding C, which begs the question to how well his game at LW could translate in a forward-pass game.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any details)

 

[Sturminator]

I can't believe this guy fell this far, but he's falling no further. A very big guy for his time, and the first player to win multiple Harts joins the TARDIS. Nels Stewart!

I was really wondering when Nels Stewart would get selected. I had sorta thought that RB/rmartin might take him and kinda reproduce the Esposito line in concept on their 2nd unit, but it was not to be. Very curious to see what you do with him.

 

[ImporterExporter]

To expand on this, by this point we know Stewart played a higher percentage of his career at LW than Alex Delvecchio did. And Stewart's best season (his rookie year) was spent largely at LW.

The downside is that after the forward pass was allowed, he was strictly a plodding C, which begs the question to how well his game at LW could translate in a forward-pass game.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any details)

From the bio I did on him in 2018:

He was not a LW during his rookie year. I went year by year, game by game through his time in Montreal, and compiled where he started/played LW at. You can see here. Predominately 27-28 and 28-29.

ATD 2018 Bio Thread (sucks a lot of the pictures are now gone)

 

[tinyzombies]

To expand on this, by this point we know Stewart played a higher percentage of his career at LW than Alex Delvecchio did. And Stewart's best season (his rookie year) was spent largely at LW.

The downside is that after the forward pass was allowed, he was strictly a plodding C, which begs the question to how well his game at LW could translate in a forward-pass game.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any details)

Speaking of, for Marty Barry:

Harry Grayson said:

There are numerous other remarkable players today. Marty Barry isn't far removed from the front rank. Indeed many competent critics rate the Detroit center smack up there.
Barry, big and strong and a hard worker, is as fine a playmaker as he is a defensive player. He has played left wing during the greater part of his career, but is the clever, snappy type of center who feeds his wings exceptionally well.​

 

[Sturminator]

Speaking of, for Marty Barry:

What year is that quote from, tiny?

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ResilientBeast did a wonderful follow up bio in 2020 which is constructed with tables and makes it easier to see which position Stewart was at in Montreal

ATD2020 Bio Thread

 

[tinyzombies]

What year is that quote from, tiny?

That's in his ATD bio, no clue. Dreak did the Marty Barry bio. @Dreakmur

Does this mean I'm screwed now?

 

[Sturminator]

That's in his ATD bio, no clue. Dreak did the Marty Barry bio. @Dreakmur

Does this mean I'm screwed now?

You're planning on using Barry as a wing? Yeeeah...that might not be such a great idea. I just checked this thread:
Award & All-Star Voting (1912-present)

...and it looks like he played LW through the 1932-33 season. Problem is that he peaked at 4th in all-star voting as a left wing. By far the lion's share of his success came as a center.

Lucky for you, Barry has enough of a two-way game to be a fine start to a 3rd line if you're not trying to construct a pure checking unit.

 

[tinyzombies]

You're planning on using Barry as a wing? Yeeeah...that might not be such a great idea. I just checked this thread:
Award & All-Star Voting (1912-present)

...and it looks like he played LW through the 1932-33 season. Problem is that he peaked at 4th in all-star voting as a left wing. By far the lion's share of his success came as a center.

Lucky for you, Barry has enough of a two-way game to be a fine start to a 3rd line if you're not trying to construct a pure checking unit.

No I need him as a 2C. I guess 3C then.

 

[Sturminator]

No I need him as a 2C. I guess 3C then.

You're all set, then. Nice value at this point.

 

[tabness]

Also pleasantly surprised this guy fell to me, I'll take Frank Foyston

I'm sure some will point to other undrafteds from this time with better stats or whatnot, but Foyston fits my team best, and he certainly was held in the same sort of regard if not better.

I don't have any shirtless pictures of Foyston, but he also seemed to be held in nice regard by the puck bunnies of the time:

(this was after beating the Eskimos in 1926 and getting to play for the Stanley Cup, Foyston scored "only" two goals which were all Victoria needed but he dominated the game)

 

[Dreakmur]

To expand on this, by this point we know Stewart played a higher percentage of his career at LW than Alex Delvecchio did. And Stewart's best season (his rookie year) was spent largely at LW.

The downside is that after the forward pass was allowed, he was strictly a plodding C, which begs the question to how well his game at LW could translate in a forward-pass game.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any details)

Rule changes are irrelevant. He did what he did under the rules of the time, just like all his contemporaries.

Quite a few people have dug into Stewart and it seems he wasn’t always slow. I have a feeling a lot of these old guys had a quote talking about them when they were 36 years old and that gets attributed to their entire careers.

 

[rmartin65]

The Vancouver Millionaires select Patrice Bergeron, C!

Given our top two centers bring little value defensively, we decided to draft one of the best defensive centers of all time. Bergeron will anchor the 3rd line and see considerable time on the penalty kill.

@RustyRazor is on the clock

 

[Professor What]

From the bio I did on him in 2018:

He was not a LW during his rookie year. I went year by year, game by game through his time in Montreal, and compiled where he started/played LW at. You can see here. Predominately 27-28 and 28-29.

ATD 2018 Bio Thread (sucks a lot of the pictures are now gone)

When he kept falling and I saw it might be possible to get him, I found that bio while reading up on him. Very useful. It pretty much convinced me that he was absolutely the way I wanted to go should he fall to me.

Shit defensive centers generally fall far.

Made even more so by the glut of Cs in a smaller draft.

One of my considerations going into this draft was that I was going to wait forever to draft a #2C because I knew some good but flawed ones would drop. But obviously I threw that plan away when I drafted Malone.

But yes, obviously good value.

And he's at least somewhat believable at LW at this point. I'm still not entirely sure exactly how much value to give him there though.

Based on the quotes IE dug up in that bio, I'm not so sure the idea of him being a sieve defensively is fair. I'm not going to suggest that he was a defensive stalwart, but the sheer number of quotes found really flies in the face of his being garbage defensively. I get the feeling that he's one of the guys who have gotten the most undeserved knocks against his game, both in that and in his supposedly being slow.

I was really wondering when Nels Stewart would get selected. I had sorta thought that RB/rmartin might take him and kinda reproduce the Esposito line in concept on their 2nd unit, but it was not to be. Very curious to see what you do with him.

He's only gone lower than where I got him twice, and the lowest spot ever was only five spots lower than where I just took him. Honestly, I wasn't even planning anything around getting him until pretty recently. I had other things I wanted to fill with my 8th and 9th round picks, and I never would have thought he'd still be there when I came up in the 10th.

For the moment, I've got him penciled in at#3C, but I'm not sure if he'll stay there or not. I think his work at LW looks good enough to merit some consideration at that position, so we'll see who else comes along to make the decision in the end.

 

[ImporterExporter]

When he kept falling and I saw it might be possible to get him, I found that bio while reading up on him. Very useful. It pretty much convinced me that he was absolutely the way I wanted to go should he fall to me.



Based on the quotes IE dug up in that bio, I'm not so sure the idea of him being a sieve defensively is fair. I'm not going to suggest that he was a defensive stalwart, but the sheer number of quotes found really flies in the face of his being garbage defensively. I get the feeling that he's one of the guys who have gotten the most undeserved knocks against his game, both in that and in his supposedly being slow.



He's only gone lower than whew I got him twice, and the lowest spot ever was only five spots lower than where I just took him. Honestly, I wasn't even planning anything around getting him until pretty recently. I had other things I wanted to fill with my 8th and 9th round picks, and I never would have thought he'd still be there when I came up in the 10th.

For the moment, I've got him penciled in at#3C, but I'm not sure if he'll stay there or not. I think his work at LW looks good enough to merit some consideration at that position, so we'll see who else comes along to make the decision in the end.

My opinion on Stewart having literally looked on a game by game basis through is Maroon days is that he was actually solid defensively in his rookie and second year. As you mentioned, there are numerous quotes (more than average for that time period) mentioned his ability to break up plays in neutral ice using his long reach and poke/sweep check. He was shifted by the coach in (IIRC) multiple games, during the '26 SCF (win) on the blue line and was highly regarded in that role.

With that being said, I think by about year 3 or 4 you start to see less and less mentions of the same kind of defensive effort and having skimmed through his Boston and NY resume, don't really see anything mentioned, in fact, that's where you see more assertions of loafing. Not to mention he played many games out of a sub role rather than the every game starter, which probably lends itself to him slowing down/becoming more lazy. So I think he's definitely below average defensively, but showed enough early in his career to avoid the label of a complete liability. Good leadership and a good coach would probably aid in this regard IMO.

Stewart played, cumulatively about a year and half at LW and his goal scoring average doesn't drop much at all. He seemed to be quite as effective at potting markers in that role. Obviously moving him out to LW diminishes his traditional VsX score somewhat as a year and half is probably a little light to assume maximum value. But I'd wager he can be played there and not be docked massively as someone would be had they no experience at a secondary position.

Toe Blake was quoted as comparing his skating to that of Beliveau. Took longer to get up to speed but when he decided to go full tilt, was hardly slow. And because of his size, didn't appear to be moving as fast as the much smaller players (which was 99% of the league). So while I don't think he's Cyclone Taylor or Morenz, I wouldn't label him as having cement on his skates either.

 

[Professor What]

My opinion on Stewart having literally looked on a game by game basis through is Maroon days is that he was actually solid defensively in his rookie and second year. As you mentioned, there are numerous quotes (more than average for that time period) mentioned his ability to break up plays in neutral ice using his long reach and poke/sweep check. He was shifted by the coach in (IIRC) multiple games, during the '26 SCF (win) on the blue line and was highly regarded in that role.

With that being said, I think by about year 3 or 4 you start to see less and less mentions of the same kind of defensive effort and having skimmed through his Boston and NY resume, don't really see anything mentioned, in fact, that's where you see more assertions of loafing. Not to mention he played many games out of a sub role rather than the every game starter, which probably lends itself to him slowing down/becoming more lazy. So I think he's definitely below average defensively, but showed enough early in his career to avoid the label of a complete liability. Good leadership and a good coach would probably aid in this regard IMO.

Stewart played, cumulatively about a year and half at LW and his goal scoring average doesn't drop much at all. He seemed to be quite as effective at potting markers in that role. Obviously moving him out to LW diminishes his traditional VsX score somewhat as a year and half is probably a little light to assume maximum value. But I'd wager he can be played there and not be docked massively as someone would be had they no experience at a secondary position.

Toe Blake was quoted as comparing his skating to that of Beliveau. Took longer to get up to speed but when he decided to go full tilt, was hardly slow. And because of his size, didn't appear to be moving as fast as the much smaller players (which was 99% of the league). So while I don't think he's Cyclone Taylor or Morenz, I wouldn't label him as having cement on his skates either.

Yeah, I'm not saying he's some kind of all-time elite at those aspects of his game. I didn't take that impression from your bio either. I'm just pointing out that the evidence says he wasn't inept or garbage at those aspects. I guess it just bothers me that he's so often viewed as a one-dimensional goal scoring machine, considering the evidence that's out there.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yeah, I'm not saying he's some kind of all-time elite at those aspects of his game. I didn't take that impression from your bio either. I'm just pointing out that the evidence says he wasn't inept or garbage at those aspects. I guess it just bothers me that he's so often viewed as a one-dimensional goal scoring machine, considering the evidence that's out there.

I think a lot of these weaknesses get overblown. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll overblown the hell out of them when making my arguments at playoff time, but I’ve taken the fact is even the worst defensive guy in this draft is going to do some things right on defense, and even the best is going to make mistakes.

Just like puck battles - Gordie Howe is the best puck battler in this whole thing, but he’s not coming away with the puck 100% of the time. Even as the best, I don’t see hm winning much more than 60%.

 

[RustyRazor]

Portland Penguins select Jacques Lemaire.

Jacques Lemaire! He shoots and scores! Look out Loretta!

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Montreal Canadiens take elite fighter, crease-clearing shot-blocking feared defensive physical defenseman who was ranked 2nd toughest player in the NHL by the six general managers in 1958 behind Gordie Howe, respected Boston captain and leader Fern Flaman, D.

 

[The Macho King]

Roanoke selects Yvan Cournoyer, RW.