Dreakmur
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What exactly is that worth? I think we need to at least attempt to come up with a way to actually measure Suchy's career so we can compare it to NHLers.
ATD 2022 Draft Thread II
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What exactly is that worth? I think we need to at least attempt to come up with a way to actually measure Suchy's career so we can compare it to NHLers.
Dreakmur
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
All Soviets and Czechoslovakians face the same question. Heck, all PCHA players do!
We usually respect the best of the best, though some GMs shy away from drafting them.
Every ATD team can carry one question mark (shorter career, injury proneness, etc). I guess you would put Soviets and Czechoslovakians in that box?
Dreakmur
Registered User
Yes, the best of the best... but how do we evaluate him to decide if he's one of those?
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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Its incomplete information but we have been doing this for years. This feels like the foundation of a "Morenz would suck if he was transplanted today" argument.
We know how the Soviets did against the Canadians in a heat on best. We know how Suchy did against the Soviets (and common rivals) in best on best sans Canada. Is it a ton? No, but it's not nothing and it's good enough for me.
Dreakmur
Registered User
If you gave Suchy a world-wide Norris record, what would it look like? 1st, 5th, 10th, and nothing else seems about fair for what he did.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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I mean - this goes to the "short peak" issue with him, which is a legit criticism. Not the "played in CSSR" issue - which is much less salient to me.
Dreakmur
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It has nothing to do with playing in a certain league, but he still has to be ranked on the world-wide ranking.
Batis
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I think that @DN28 during the top-200 players project did a good job of showing that there actually is some more substance to the career of Suchy even outside of his peak years. Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10
This is how DN28´s Norris projections for Suchy and Vasiliev looks.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Those ranking look very generous to me. I gave him a Norris win in 1969 because he was the best non-Bobby Orr defenseman in the world that year. 1968 and 1970, I don’t see how his domestic accomplishments are more impressive than what at least a handful of NHLers did those seasons. Unless I’m missing something, Suchy didn’t even play in his domestic league in 1971, so how exactly is he getting a Norris runner-up that season?
Batis
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Dreakmur
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tabness
be a playa 🇵🇸
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Happy to get to pick Doug Wilson, D, needs to get more love as one of the very best defensemen of the eighties, just too many injuries to get those end of year awards votes. Wilson and Chelios overlapped in 1990-1991, and while they weren't paired together much at even strength (point together for just one even strength goal), they did play the powerplay together. Here, I have the luxury of casting them together, Wilson and Chelios compliment each other nicely. While Chelios had nice skating and finesse skills, he kept it safe and simple, Wilson has better skating and finesse skills to continue to let Chelios be the mainstay on the defensive end. Wilson was a (clean) bodychecker, so he can continue to do that, and Chelios can do the dirty stuff. One thing Chelios wasn't excellent at was his shot, and in Chicago, sometimes he had to shoot too much because of lack of options. No issues now being paired with Wilson, one of the best shots from the blueline ever.
Wilson unfortunately has average, if not slightly worse than average, even strength home/road splits than most top notch defensemen. Part of that has to be Chicago being so light on defense beyond him in the eighties. The good thing is Chelios has one of the best ever splits on the road, almost identical to home, and of course, Coffey sees a much smaller drop than you'd expect, and has larger gaps between him and Orr on the road than in general!
Wilson unfortunately has average, if not slightly worse than average, even strength home/road splits than most top notch defensemen. Part of that has to be Chicago being so light on defense beyond him in the eighties. The good thing is Chelios has one of the best ever splits on the road, almost identical to home, and of course, Coffey sees a much smaller drop than you'd expect, and has larger gaps between him and Orr on the road than in general!
Professor What
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I very strongly considered Suchy with my last pick. In fact, at one point, while I was trying to work out a trade, I was almost sure I'd pick him if I stayed put. In the end, Johnson's reputation as a rock-solid defender and his longevity made me go that way, but it was a close call.
I don't know that I'd go as far as to say that he was the 2nd best defenseman in the world for four years, but at the same time, I recognize that might be because of my own feeling of incomplete information. I don't think it's unfair to say it seems generous, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea as nutty either. I'll also say that he was one of the players I struggled with the most in the top 200 project. But that said, a lot of what we do here requires us to do the best we can with guesswork and incomplete information. While I certainly wish we had more direct comparative evidence, we simply don't, and that just is what it is. What we do have (and I'll echo the previous praise for the thread by @Batis) looks quite good. There's really nothing we know about him that gives me any pause, save the lack of longevity. That alone is enough for me to have a good impression.
I don't know that I'd go as far as to say that he was the 2nd best defenseman in the world for four years, but at the same time, I recognize that might be because of my own feeling of incomplete information. I don't think it's unfair to say it seems generous, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea as nutty either. I'll also say that he was one of the players I struggled with the most in the top 200 project. But that said, a lot of what we do here requires us to do the best we can with guesswork and incomplete information. While I certainly wish we had more direct comparative evidence, we simply don't, and that just is what it is. What we do have (and I'll echo the previous praise for the thread by @Batis) looks quite good. There's really nothing we know about him that gives me any pause, save the lack of longevity. That alone is enough for me to have a good impression.
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Batis
Registered User
Here is an excellent breakdown of Suchy´s 70/71 season.
As you can see Suchy´s scoring was unusually low during the 70/71 season (both domestically and internationally) but he did lead the Czechoslovakian league in both +/- and shorthanded ice time as well as winning the Directorate Best Defenceman award and being the leader in the media All-Star voting among defencemen at the 1971 World Championships.
I would however agree on that out of the four peak seasons of Suchy 70/71 is the one where his case for being the second best defenceman in the world is somewhat weaker considering that he was edged out in the Czechoslovakian golden stick voting by a undrafted defenceman. But considering how close that voting was and that those two clearly were the two best defencemen in Europe during that season (only one year before the Summit Series took place) I don´t think that it is farfetched to view Suchy as the second best defencemen in the world during this season either.
Dreakmur
Registered User
It’s so strange that such a high profile player has such incomplete statistics. That’s one of my biggest stumbling blocks when trying to evaluate him. It’s hard enough to compare between different leagues of different levels, but I’m not even exactly sure how much he dominated his own league.
I think it’s a huge leap to call him the second best defenseman in the world when he wasn’t even the best one in the third best league. Being as generous as you post could be, he’s 3rd, and that’s a huge stretch.
Batis
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I don´t think that a voting edge as small as the one between those two defencemen is enough to say that one was better than the other one during that season. DN28 (who I would call the most knowledgeable poster on this board when it comes to Czechoslovakian hockey) is obviously aware of that the undrafted defenceman edged out Suchy in the golden stick voting but he still evidently considers Suchy to have been the best defenceman in Europe and the second best in the world.
Dreakmur
Registered User
That’s fair, but I’m not sure it matters if he was slightly better or slightly worse than the other defenseman in the Czech league. If he’s not the clear-cut best defenseman in a much weaker league, I find it very hard to imagine he was better than every defenseman in the NHL outside Bobby Orr.
The Best Defensemen awards are great, but I’m not sure exactly what they mean when most of the best players in the world don’t participate.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Orillia selects the guy who I think is the last power forward with a legit top-6 offensive resume, Jamie Benn
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Is Benn a HHOFer?
He has just been drafted before a lot of them.
97th Shea Weber
169th Jamie Benn
The highest EVER...
He has just been drafted before a lot of them.
97th Shea Weber
169th Jamie Benn
The highest EVER...
Batis
Registered User
Yes the Czechoslovakian league was only the third best league in the world at that time but when it comes to quality of defencemen I would say that they ranked higher than that as most people would have ranked those two defencemen as the two best in Europe during that season. Considering how well Czechoslovakia did against the Soviets during the 1971 World Championships (3-3 tie and 5-2 win) I would guess that these two defencemen also would have ranked rather high on a list of the best players in Europe even with the tough competition of all the elite Soviet forwards (Firsov, Kharlamov, Maltsev etc).
But like I said earlier I do agree on that this is the season during Suchy´s peak where I am less convinced of the strenght of the case for him having been the second best defenceman in the world.
Dreakmur
Registered User
If he died today, he might get in. He’s a lot better than a lot of HHOFers, though the standards are a lot higher now than they used to be.
This is a team building exercise, not an all-time ranking.
The Czechoslovak Golden Stick voting thoroughly considered domestic and international play through the entire season. The undrafted d-man who narrowly edged out Suchý in this 1971 voting carried his (much weaker than Suchý's dynasty team) own team, had a solid WHC 1971 himself and he also earned the award for best d-man of that mid-season Izvestia Cup.
If I remember correctly, Suchý missed December '70 Izvestia Cup due to injury (though not 100% certain).
Suchý won the Golden Sticks two previous years, he also won a less known "best hockey player of the year" a type of award or awards before the Golden Sticks... Overall, it was not non-sensical that 1971 voters finally found someone other to recognize.. But considering all things and mainly the outcome of the WHC 1971 top games (Czechs vs. Soviets), I would still lean toward Suchý as the best d-man (and arguably best player) in Europe even for this season.
By the end of the season, the sentiment or narrative surrounding Suchý was that he revolutionized the game the way Orr did in the NHL. I'd quote my translation of the article "A Hockey Player’s Year. SUCHÝ attacks in Europe, Bobby ORR attacks in Canada!" but it includes several undrafted names..
Still, anyone can read it at the very end of this post (Hockey in Czechoslovakia and Europe from 1968 to 1990 (some awards and stats)).
tony d
New poll series coming from me in June
Going with a guy I had in 2020 but someone I've always liked as a player. Going with left winger Michel Goulet.
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