ATD 2022 Draft Thread II

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Three Rivers will round out their top 4 with a giant of a man for the era (40's hockey) at 6'2'' 205 lbs, a ridiculously strong player and physical presence who should fit nicely next to JC Tremblay. He'll join his long time running mate Elmer Lach (whom he joined with to have his jersey lifted to the rafters in 2009) and a more brief teammate, Jacques Plante.

The Confluence will select:

Emile "Butch" Bouchard, D

Émile Bouchard - Wikipedia

There is study attached to this page from McGill University which highlights the changes in the average size of players over hockey history. Bouchard was a half foot taller and 40 lbs heavier than the average player for his time.

D.L. Montgomery (deceased) McGill University (2006). "Physiological profile of professional hockey players — a longitudinal comparison"

Along with a strong work ethic and keen intellect, Bouchard was physically imposing. At 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) and 205 pounds (93 kg) he was considered a giant compared to NHL players of the 1940s, when the average height was 5 ft 8 in (1.73 m) and average weight was 165 pounds (75 kg).[16] Moreover, since he also practiced heavy weight training in an era before NHL players were concerned about upper body strength[17] he became a very effective defensive presence.[2] Hockey Hall of Fame leftwinger and teammate Dickie Moore said of Bouchard: "He appeared to have been chiseled out of stone."[3]

By the time of Bouchard's arrival to the Montreal Canadiens the club had not won the championship for 10 years and attendance at the Forum was very low, often less than 3,000 a game,[3][18] and there was talk of folding the franchise.[6] A few years earlier, in 1935, Canadien owners had seriously considered an offer to sell the team to be moved to Cleveland.[19]

After finishing last or near the bottom of the league for several years, apathy of the fans was matched by the players themselves who had accepted losing as way of hockey life. In his first training camp, he showcased his physical play by body-checking players, including veterans, with abandon. When the season started other teams discovered that with Bouchard in the lineup they could no longer push Canadien players around. Bouchard's presence reinvigorated the Canadiens and he is credited with playing an important part in keeping the franchise from leaving Montreal.[2][3]

However, Bouchard was more than just a physical presence. He learned to play good positional hockey and became skilled at passing the puck.[2] He also possessed a flair for judging the flow of the game and knew when to join the attack and when to retreat.[7] Despite his role as a stay-at-home defenceman, due to his skills for the long breakout pass, he was a contributor to the style of firewagon hockey[20] for which the Canadiens exemplified.[2][6][11][21]

As physical on the ice as Bouchard was, he was also regarded as a clean player and only rarely participated in hockey fights. Immensely strong, most players avoided engaging him in fights and Bouchard more often would be the person to break up combatants.[2] However, it was a fight involving Bouchard which led to a significant change in the role of referees.

During the 1946–47 season, Bouchard became involved in a prolonged and one-sided fight with Boston's Terry Reardon. Due to the fight, Clarence Campbell, president of the NHL, added to the duties of referees; for the first time they had the responsibility of breaking up fights.[29] Then there was the time in March 1947, in a game in Boston, as the Canadiens were coming back onto the ice for the beginning of the third period, a female fan attacked Bouchard spearing him with a hat pin. Bouchard responded by pushing the woman away forcefully. A few moments later, Boston police were leading Bouchard out to a police car. According to Bouchard, Pat Egan of the Boston Bruins, interceded and talked the police out of the arrest.[30

In 1948, Bouchard became the first Quebec-born captain of the Canadiens, a position he retained for eight years until his retirement. At the time of his retirement no player had served more years as captain of the Canadiens than Bouchard.[3] Hall of Famer Jean Béliveau, a teammate of Bouchard for Beliveau's early years with the Canadiens, said Bouchard was the model for his time as captain in the 1960s.[6] Bouchard was a well-respected leader and played a role in supporting and mentoring the younger players.[21][31] Never afraid to speak up to management, in 1950 on Bouchard's recommendation to Selke to "give the kid a shot", Bernie Geoffrion was given a tryout and eventually joined the Canadiens.[6]

Legends of Hockey Biography (Official HHoF website)

Bouchard developed into a tough stay-at-home defenseman whose physical game was a superb complement to defense partner Doug Harvey, one of the game's all-time great rushing blueliners. And it shouldn't be overlooked that Bouchard's exceptional hockey sense and accurate passing often started the offensive rushes for which the Canadiens became famous in the 1940s and 1950s. Physically, Bouchard was remarkably strong and often broke up fights on the ice by grabbing hold of each combatant with his enormous hands. To his credit, he never abused his powerful attributes and most opponents wisely avoided provoking him. In turn, he rarely fought.

-- Lasting Legacy --

Bouchard displayed some of that trademark poise under pressure while joining forces with Doug Harvey to form the top defensive pairing in the league in the 1940s and ‘50s. Despite leading all Canadiens defensemen in scoring twice in his career, it was his bone-crunching work along the boards that drew the most attention from opposing forwards. A physical presence even during practice, the 6-foot-2 blue-liner never passed up an opportunity to teach his teammates valuable lessons in self-defense.

“You learned to stay away from him in practice,” joked fellow Hall-of-Famer Dickie Moore, who took his share of Bouchard body checks during their five seasons together. “He definitely kept our heads up. And [in games], if anything was getting out of hand, he would come in and take care of business and stand up for us.”

-- "Wo Were Habs Butch Bouchard And Elmer Lach?" --

One camp later, in 1941, it was Bouchard's turn to impress the coach. Bouchard had played in the Canadiens system for a season, showing surprising progression for a kid who had only begun skating at age 17. Four seasons later, he wanted to make the Canadiens so badly, he would bike the roughly 25 km trek from Longueuil to the Habs camp in St. Hycinthe. Not only was the youngster in better physical shape than most veterans on the club, Bouchard had the strength of an ox and the perseverance of a mad bull.

In Bouchard's day, the Norris Trophy had yet to be awarded, but his stature in the game is shown by his four successive All Star team berths, starting with the second team in 1944, followed by three first team awards from 1945 to 1947. As coach xxxxxx had often stated, had there been a Conn Smythe Trophy for playoff MVP in the day, his vote in '44 and '46 would have gone to Bouchard.

The roles played by Bouchard and Lach on the ice were a mere fraction of their contribution. They were cornerstones in launching the Canadiens into greatness.

-- Canadiens great Emile ‘Butch’ Bouchard dies of lengthy illness at age 92--

Highlights how Bouchard was the first Montreal Captain chosen by the players and not managment

In an era when most hockey players were well under six feet, Bouchard was a powerful six-foot-two and weighed in at 205 pounds. He worked out lifting steel-plated railway ties at a time when most players didn’t begin conditioning until training camp. Bouchard arrived at his first camp in top shape. His punishing checks, work ethic and hockey savvy quickly won him a spot on the roster.

Bouchard later paired up with hockey legend Doug Harvey, allowing the great rushing defenceman to lead the Canadiens’ attack confident that Bouchard was covering his back. Other legends Bouchard played with and helped mentor included Maurice (Rocket) Richard, Bernard (Boom Boom) Geoffrion and Dickie Moore.
...
In addition to his rock-solid defence, he was considered a great mentor to the younger players who went on to win an unprecedented five straight Cup championships from 1956 to 1960.

Longtime Montreal Gazette hockey writer Red Fisher, who began covering the Canadiens in Bouchard’s final season, said that before Bouchard’s captaincy, management always chose the captain. “But this time the players voted and (Bouchard) was their unanimous choice, which gives you an idea how they felt about him,” Fisher said.

“He was always a jovial guy, always with a quip here and there, with a smile on his face and always a Canadien. He was a terrific human being. I have never met anyone who ever said anything but good about Butch Bouchard. That’s a pretty good record.”

 

[The Macho King]

I mean I wanted to take him 20 picks ago so I think that's excellent value. Good defender, RHS, and can wear a letter.

 

[rmartin65]

Shame you won't have him on the ice 20 games out of a season

That's built into his resume already, though. His awards are what they are because of his injuries. His stats/VsX are what they are because of injuries.

It's one of those things that I think we (the ATD community) needs to step back and re-evaluate, as it seems to me that of-injured players get punished twice in this format- once for having lower numbers than healthy players, and again for being an injury risk.

 

[The Macho King]

That's built into his resume already, though. His awards are what they are because of his injuries. His stats/VsX are what they are because of injuries.

It's one of those things that I think we (the ATD community) needs to step back and re-evaluate, as it seems to me that of-injured players get punished twice in this format- once for having lower numbers than healthy players, and again for being an injury risk.

Based on his numbers - is he going in a range comparable to his actual performance versus his per game pace?

Strikes me as these guys actually go quite higher than their vsx would indicate, so highlighting injury proneness is necessary.

 

[tinyzombies]

Based on his numbers - is he going in a range comparable to his actual performance versus his per game pace?

Strikes me as these guys actually go quite higher than their vsx would indicate, so highlighting injury proneness is necessary.

Some injuries are also era-specific, like the headshots for instance.

 

[The Macho King]

Some injuries are also era-specific, like the headshots for instance.

Ummm... what era would that be exactly? Because that seems like a risk in any era.

 

[rmartin65]

Based on his numbers - is he going in a range comparable to his actual performance versus his per game pace?

That is another matter entirely- I was defending players with injury concerns in general, not Neely specifically. Personally, I think he went early. That said, I think just about every power forward goes earlier than I want to take them, but that is part of the ATD- it is a team-building exercise, not a ranking exercise.

Strikes me as these guys actually go quite higher than their vsx would indicate, so highlighting injury proneness is necessary.

Like who? I'm struggling to think of more than a handful of examples.

 

[tinyzombies]

That is another matter entirely- I was defending players with injury concerns in general, not Neely specifically. Personally, I think he went early. That said, I think just about every power forward goes earlier than I want to take them, but that is part of the ATD- it is a team-building exercise, not a ranking exercise.



Like who? I'm struggling to think of more than a handful of examples.

I agree he went early and it was about building a team. It was also specific to the position, because it was getting thin on second liners at RW. Since there aren't really any rules to this thing lol.

 

[The Macho King]

That is another matter entirely- I was defending players with injury concerns in general, not Neely specifically. Personally, I think he went early. That said, I think just about every power forward goes earlier than I want to take them, but that is part of the ATD- it is a team-building exercise, not a ranking exercise.



Like who? I'm struggling to think of more than a handful of examples.

Forsberg, Lindros, Neely, Kariya are the examples off the top of my head (less so Forsberg than the others).

 

[rmartin65]

Forsberg, Lindros, Neely, Kariya are the examples off the top of my head (less so Forsberg than the others).

Interesting; I don't know if I can agree with all of those players being listed. Maybe by VsX they are overdrafted, but if we are looking at on-ice impact, I think that most of them are drafted in roughly the right ranges.

 

[The Macho King]

Interesting; I don't know if I can agree with all of those players being listed. Maybe by VsX they are overdrafted, but if we are looking at on-ice impact, I think that most of them are drafted in roughly the right ranges.

Then highlighting their propensity to get injured is the counter to that.

That's why they're "punished " in assassinations. Their "on ice impact" can only be a factor to the extent they are actually on the ice.

 

[tinyzombies]

The rules back then favored defense at the expense of offensive skill. That is no longer the case and never should have been. It was a sign of the times. It was a social disease- especially after the wars. You also had to deal with the potential of getting into a fight all the time back then as well. A lot of those people moved out of my neighborhood and it's a totally different place now. There were a lot of psychos back then.

Look at what Lafleur had to go through as opposed to what McDavid faces, for example. Lafleur deserves fair compensation. Look at his string of injuries post-dynasty. The kneeing injuries from Potvin and Boutette. Just ridiculous bs.

Those players had to fight through a lot more and their legacies should be compensated not penalized.

Potvin goes too high in this thing for my liking, that guy belonged in the box every shift. That's not defense, that's crime.

 

[The Macho King]

The rules back then favored defense at the expense of offensive skill. That is no longer the case and never should have been. It was a sign of the times. It was a social disease- especially after the wars. You also had to deal with the potential of getting into a fight all the time back then as well. A lot of those people moved out of my neighborhood and it's a totally different place now. There were a lot of psychos back then.

Look at what Lafleur had to go through as opposed to what McDavid faces. Lafleur deserves fair compensation. Look at the string of injuries post-dynasty. The kneeing injuries from Potvin and Boutette. Just ridiculous bs.

Those players had to fight through a lot more and their legacies should be compensated not penalized.

Whatever happened post-dynasty, Lafleurs on ice impact (a six season peak that puts almost any non Big 4 to shame) is enough to properly compensate him. We can wax on might have beens on the HoH board. Or if you want an "injuries off" draft, that could be neat too.

 

[rmartin65]

Then highlighting their propensity to get injured is the counter to that.

That's why they're "punished " in assassinations. Their "on ice impact" can only be a factor to the extent they are actually on the ice.

But bringing up their lower VsX scores/award finishes IS punishing them for their injury-proneness; their scores/awards would (likely, can't say for certain) be much more impressive if they weren't better. You don't need to then make a point of mentioning that the injury-prone player will be missing time, further lowering his scores.

 

[The Macho King]

But bringing up their lower VsX scores/award finishes IS punishing them for their injury-proneness; their scores/awards would (likely, can't say for certain) be much more impressive if they weren't better. You don't need to then make a point of mentioning that the injury-prone player will be missing time, further lowering his scores.

Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Draft them high for their "on-ice impact" but then not knock them for their propensity for injuries. VsX is just one method to highlight what that means, but it is far from the entirety of the issue.

Basically if you're missing Lindros for 23 games, that means your third line C is your second line C, and your 4th the third, etc. Injuries don't only ding their performance - they force the rest of the roster to compensate.

Is Lindros on the top PP? Well suddenly that's an issue.

 

[rmartin65]

Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Draft them high for their "on-ice impact" but then not knock them for their propensity for injuries. VsX is just one method to highlight what that means, but it is far from the entirety of the issue.

Basically if you're missing Lindros for 23 games, that means your third line C is your second line C, and your 4th the third, etc. Injuries don't only ding their performance - they force the rest of the roster to compensate.

Is Lindros on the top PP? Well suddenly that's an issue.

Yes, but I’d argue that the games you do have him in the lineup, you are getting much more value than his VsX score.

 

[tinyzombies]

There are two things at work, his record vs peers and the ATD environment. You are saying no to cake and then refusing to eat it. If you balance things like you are doing with everything else, a lot of those injuries don’t happen.

maybe have an injury adjustment by era

 

[Dreakmur]

Yes, but I’d argue that the games you do have him in the lineup, you are getting much more value than his VsX score.

That's a fair point.

 

[Sturminator]

I'll just chime in and say that I agree you can't take VsX at face value and then also question a player's health. The system is rough enough on guys who were banged up a lot.

Of course, it's a good idea to have strong depth at the position if you're drafting a Lindros//Neely/Moore type, but that's kinda beside the point in terms of how we evaluate the individual player. In a smaller draft, this kind of depth is easier to come by, so the value of these players probably rises somewhat.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll pick Babe Siebert, D/LW

Big, strong, fast, good at both ends of the ice.

 

[Sturminator]

The Montreal Canadiens are very pleased to select center Mike Modano.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Siebert was a good pick. All-arounders like him are usually gone by that point.

I feel lucky Modano made it that far. Didn't expect him at 173th, even with centers dropping from the small draft.

 

[Voight]

Bandits will take Defensemen #3 Harry Howell

 

[Johnny Engine]

I'm going to take Bill White, who's role might be to just link his impossibly long arms with 6'7" Victor Hedman and clothesline anyone who crosses the blueline.
In all seriousness, he's also the PK ace needed on a Pilote team, and a much needed steady, right-shooting #4 for our squad.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jonathan Toews, C

Very effective even strength player at both ends of the ice.

Just as an example, using overpass's adjusted points per season (because I have easy access to it): As of 2020, Toews had 53 adjusted even strength points per 82 games vs 21 adjusted PP points per game. Kopitar - 48 at even strength, 29 on the PP.