ATD 2022 Draft Thread II

[Dreakmur]

I know people draft Dit Clapper to be a winger.

And he has a 98 point, 45 goal season on the wing (as well as 29 in 57 games). Not to mention this season, where he has been top 10 in points from (mostly) the wing, although the past couple of weeks he's been moved around a bit more - although yes active season and all that.

Ive never seen Clapper drafted as a forward… and he was a 2-time second team all star on RW.

 

[The Macho King]

Name one HHOF winger or defenseman Thornton played with during his...

1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 8th, 10th in NHL assist seasons.

... opponents had a simple game plan: don't let Thornton touch the puck (hard to do when he's bot one of the top 5 scorers on an ATD team.

I mean - xxx is probably going into the Hall. Also, while yes his wingers aren't necessarily in the HHOF, that doesn't mean he was dragging around boat anchors. xxx was a legit sniper for a few years. xxx was a f***ing all-star. xxx is a very good player.

But yeah - you're getting a tremendous playmaker with Thornton. We all know that. We also know what else you're getting with him. Indifferent defense a lot of times and playoff production that craters through the f***ing floor.

Edit: My bad on the undrafteds.

 

[The Macho King]

Ive never seen Clapper drafted as a forward… and he was a 2-time second team all star on RW.

And yet he's still D/RW when listed. That's all I was saying.

Also I think consider a) the similarity of the position (especially considering the role because of how Stamkos' wingers played) and b) the proof of concept of him excelling at W, I wouldn't dock him at all for lining up there at this point. Literally his best point producing season was played 90% on the wing (and this season is another that is trending toward a top 5 point producing season for him).

 

[Dreakmur]

And yet he's still D/RW when listed. That's all I was saying.

Also I think consider a) the similarity of the position (especially considering the role because of how Stamkos' wingers played) and b) the proof of concept of him excelling at W, I wouldn't dock him at all for lining up there at this point. Literally his best point producing season was played 90% on the wing (and this season is another that is trending toward a top 5 point producing season for him).

Clapper was a RW for the first 10 years of his career.

Why has Stamkos played wing the last while? It’s not because he’s better on the wing, it’s because there are better centres on the team that bumped him out of his primary position.

 

[VanIslander]

...with Thornton... playoff production that craters through the f***ing floor.

ABSURD.

He is tied with Brendan Shanahan and Guy Lafleur for playoff scoring with 134 NHL playoff points! (with no dynasty or HHOF-studded cast).

Only 20 centers have ever scored more in the NHL playoffs).

Yeah, he has never been on a Stanley Cup team. That is true.

 

[The Macho King]

Clapper was a RW for the first 10 years of his career.

Why has Stamkos played wing the last while? It’s not because he’s better on the wing, it’s because there are better centres on the team that bumped him out of his primary position.

Actually there's a pretty good argument that he is better on the wing. He's not great defensively so reducing his role there has been a positive (look at his possession metrics when him and MSL were a line and they were abysmal with frequent +/- in the negative despite high point totals). He's gotten better, but he's clearly below Tampa's two other top centers in that regard, and has often played wing even when there was injury to one or the other (see - when top C got injured in the playoffs, third C became second C instead of Stamkos moving to C).

Clapper's situation is notably different because playing D and playing RW are two wildly different positions, with different responsibilities and different expectations on play styles. If Clapper is getting drafted as a winger, he's going in the 150-200 range. But because he was *so good* at D, he goes much higher. The reason no one puts him on the wing is because #1D is way more important than #2RW.

I mean, you can disagree all you want but the fact is, Stamkos is a winger now, and there's sufficient proof of concept to put him there and expect his production to maintain. He has a top 10 point finish from the wing (with one still potentially pending) despite being post-peak and after injury, and has done it for long enough that it isn't a flash in the pan. I can't tell you how to value him, but if he's put as a RW he gets full value from me.

 

[Dreakmur]

ABSURD.

He is tied with Brendan Shanahan and Guy Lafleur for playoff scoring with 134 points! (with no dynasty or HHOF-studded cast). Only 20 centers have ever scored more in the NHL playoffs).

Yeah, he has never been on a Stanley Cup team. That is true.

Yeah, his famous choker reputation is all just made up out of nothing…

He’s an elite second line scorer in the regular season, and I was going to pick him if he dropped to me this round… but he has always sucked most in the most important games.

 

[The Macho King]

ABSURD.

He is tied with Brendan Shanahan and Guy Lafleur for playoff scoring with 134 NHL playoff points! (with no dynasty or HHOF-studded cast).

Only 20 centers have ever scored more in the NHL playoffs).

Yeah, he has never been on a Stanley Cup team. That is true.

134 playoff points and -35 in 186 playoff games. .72 points per game.

He's played forever. Don't try and bring up his total points as an argument. Shit - Nikita Kucherov is like 8 points back of him in playoff scoring despite playing almost 100 fewer games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I had anticipated that whichever one of the zero defense trio of McDavid, Cowley, and Stewart would be drafted last would be the steal of the draft, but "steal of the draft" ended up basically a tie between Cowley and Thornton. Joe has his issue, but terrible defense isn't it.

Ken Reardon is always good value as a defenseman because his skillset is just so... Confusing. A hard hitting rushing defensman who was also a really slow skater... Huh.

 

[Dreakmur]

Actually there's a pretty good argument that he is better on the wing. He's not great defensively so reducing his role there has been a positive (look at his possession metrics when him and MSL were a line and they were abysmal with frequent +/- in the negative despite high point totals). He's gotten better, but he's clearly below Tampa's two other top centers in that regard, and has often played wing even when there was injury to one or the other (see - when top C got injured in the playoffs, third C became second C instead of Stamkos moving to C).

Clapper's situation is notably different because playing D and playing RW are two wildly different positions, with different responsibilities and different expectations on play styles. If Clapper is getting drafted as a winger, he's going in the 150-200 range. But because he was *so good* at D, he goes much higher. The reason no one puts him on the wing is because #1D is way more important than #2RW.

I mean, you can disagree all you want but the fact is, Stamkos is a winger now, and there's sufficient proof of concept to put him there and expect his production to maintain. He has a top 10 point finish from the wing (with one still potentially pending) despite being post-peak and after injury, and has done it for long enough that it isn't a flash in the pan. I can't tell you how to value him, but if he's put as a RW he gets full value from me.

Tampa Bay has played more games than the rest of the league. Stankos isn’t even top-20 in per game scoring.

You can put him wherever you want, but he’s accomplished nothing that is worthy of the ATD there, and that means he should be treated as way less effective.

 

[The Macho King]

I had anticipated that whichever one of the zero defense trio of McDavid, Cowley, and Stewart would be drafted last would be the steal of the draft, but "steal of the draft" ended up basically a tie between Cowley and Thornton. Joe has his issue, but terrible defense isn't it.

Ken Reardon is always good value as a defenseman because his skillset is just so... Confusing. A hard hitting rushing defensman who was also a really slow skater... Huh.

Max Bentley is the steal of the draft and I won't hear a counter-argument.

 

[VanIslander]

134 playoff points and -35 in 186 playoff games. .72 points per game.

That just over 5 points average in every 7-game series.

If you don't recognize experience, at least don't cite an average that includes him at 19 and 41 !!

 

[ResilientBeast]

That just over 5 points average in every 7-game series.

If you don't recognize experience, at least don't cite an average that includes him at 19 and 41 !!

You're the one who brought up career totals like they mean something for a perennial choker

 

[VanIslander]

I had anticipated that whichever one of the zero defense trio of McDavid, Cowley, and Stewart would be drafted last would be the steal of the draft, but "steal of the draft" ended up basically a tie between Cowley and Thornton. Joe has his issue, but terrible defense isn't it.

Thornton was 5th in Selke voting and got several other votes other years.

Cowley admitted he didn't backcheck, confirming his coach's disdain.

Thornton on the other hand has worn a captaincy letter for more than a dozen years of his career and is said to be a vocal, hard-working leader.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The reason I take Cowley over Thornton 100 times out of 100 is because he produced no matter who his linemates were, was good in the postseason, and can be sheltered easier with the proper wingers. Winning 2 Hart's in an era when defensive play (players) were actually considered among voters for the Hart is pretty telling IMO. There isn't much to suggest his defensive reputation crippled teams he was on. It's a wart, absolutely, but one I'd rather work with than someone who disappeared in almost every big game/series he ever played in. I understand if some might not see it that way though. For me, it was simply a value pick. At some point a guy like Cowley or Thornton are just so much better from a pure resume standpoint than current players going off the board.

 

[VanIslander]

Thornton was 1st in assists, 2nd in scoring for the Sharks his 1st year.
He led the team easily in points the 2nd postseason.
.
.
.
Would citing his many team leads in playoff scoring make any difference?

He didn't have great players to play with, and the opposition just had to put their best stoppers on him.

(G'night. 2am Tuesday here)


It's 2am Tuesday

 

[ResilientBeast]

Thornton was 1st in assists, 2nd in scoring for the Sharks his 1st year.
He led tge team easily in points the 2nd postseason.
.
.
.
Would citing his many team leads in playoff scoring make any difference?

He didn't have great players to play with, and the opposition just had to put their best stoppers on him.

(G'night. 2am Tuesday here)


It's 2am Tuesday

The Sharks finished 1st or second in their division for 7 straight years and in that stretch only made the conference finals twice

Then that streak gets broken by a 3rd place finish before they're second again and proceed to lose in the first round.

So the Sharks were good enough to make the playoffs as a high seed, but Thornton didn't have enough help lol

2005–06	2005–06	Western	Pacific	2nd	82	44	27	—	11	99	265	235	11	6	5	29	29	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–1 (Predators) Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2–4 (Oilers)
2006–07	2006–07	Western	Pacific	2nd	82	51	26	—	5	107	256	197	11	6	5	25	27	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–1 (Predators) Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2–4 (Red Wings)
2007–08	2007–08	Western	Pacific	1st	82	49	23	—	10	108	216	187	13	6	7	30	32	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–3 (Flames) Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2–4 (Stars)
2008–09	2008–09	Western	Pacific	1st	82	53	18	—	11	117	251	199	6	2	4	10	18	Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 2–4 (Ducks)
2009–10	2009–10	Western	Pacific	1st	82	51	20	—	11	113	264	215	15	8	7	41	41	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–2 (Avalanche) Won in Conference Semifinals, 4–1 (Red Wings) Lost in Conference Finals, 0–4 (Blackhawks)
2010–11	2010–11	Western	Pacific	1st	82	48	25	—	9	105	248	213	18	9	9	51	58	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–2 (Kings) Won in Conference Semifinals, 4–3 (Red Wings) Lost in Conference Finals, 1–4 (Canucks)
2011–12	2011–12	Western	Pacific	2nd	82	43	29	—	10	96	228	210	5	1	4	8	14	Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 1–4 (Blues)
2012–133	2012–13	Western	Pacific	3rd	48	25	16	—	7	57	124	116	11	7	4	25	22	Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–0 (Canucks) Lost in Conference Semifinals, 3–4 (Kings)
2013–14	2013–14	Western	Pacific	2nd	82	51	22	—	9	111	249	200	7	3	4	22	26	Lost in First Round, 3–4 (Kings)
2014–15	2014–15	Western	Pacific	5th	82	40	33	—	9	89	228	232	—	—	—	—	—	Did not qualify
2015–16	2015–16	Western	Pacific	3rd	82	46	30	—	6	98	241	210	24	14	10	75	56	Won in First Round, 4–1 (Kings) Won in Second Round, 4–3 (Predators) Won in Conference Finals, 4–2 (Blues) Lost in Stanley Cup Finals, 2–4 (Penguins)
2016–17	2016–17	Western	Pacific	3rd	82	46	29	—	7	99	221	201	6	2	4	14	12	Lost in First Round, 2–4 (Oilers)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[The Macho King]

Thornton was 5th in Selke voting and got several other votes other years.

Cowley admitted he didn't backcheck, confirming his coach's disdain.

Thornton on the other hand has worn a captaincy letter for more than a dozen years of his career and is said to be a vocal, hard-working leader.

Thornton is the only guy I can think of that got the C taken away twice.

Thornton is at times fine defensively, but it comes and goes. It's an interest thing with him - when he's on he can be a legit checking line player, but getting him on seems to take a herculean effort.

That just over 5 points average in every 7-game series.

If you don't recognize experience, at least don't cite an average that includes him at 19 and 41 !!

So first - you brought up his career totals, not me.

Second - Thornton has a total of three playoff appearances where he was at least a point per game - showings of 11 games, 6 games, and 5 games. He was exactly a ppg in each one. Taking him from 1999-2016 (including those years because they are literally the most flattering to his total and leaving them out would actually hurt his PPG), his totals are 121 points in 150 games, and a -25, for a total of...

.8 points per game.

So yeah - including his geriatric years barely hurt his production because he's played for so long. And it's not like the Sharks were bad. They were actually quite good for most of that stretch - they won a Presidents' Trophy and finished first or second in their division 8 out of 9 years. Trying to retcon Thornton into anything but an abject failure in the playoffs is a fools errand. You adjust by surrounding him with unquestionable talent, not by bolstering his wreck of a resume.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So yeah - including his geriatric years barely hurt his production because he's played for so long. And it's not like the Sharks were bad. They were actually quite good for most of that stretch - they won a Presidents' Trophy and finished first or second in their division 8 out of 9 years. Trying to retcon Thornton into anything but an abject failure in the playoffs is a fools errand. You adjust by surrounding him with unquestionable talent, not by bolstering his wreck of a resume.

The talent level thing is so baffling to me, sure the Sharks might not have had the HHOF level talent...but they were really f***ing deep and overall a great team evidenced by their regular season performances

 

[The Macho King]

The talent level thing is so baffling to me, sure the Sharks might not have had the HHOF level talent...but they were really f***ing deep and overall a great team evidenced by their regular season performances

The thing that's making me pull my hair out is I even acknowledged immediately after the pick that it was great value at this point in the draft.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I watched Crosby absolutely slam the door on Thornton going power on power in the Cup finals a handful of years back. 3 assists in 6 games and a -4. You could watch the frustration build over the entire series, especially when Sid was taking hacks and chops from Joe and simply skating away with a smirk on his face.

I don't know what it is with Jumbo, but he really seemed to go MIA in the postseason with regularity. Even on Team Canada he looked lost often.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Renowned for his physicality

Joe Thornton? I think before Lindros absolutely destroyed him, Thornton may have THOUGHT he was a powerforward type.. after that.. not even remotely close.

 

[tinyzombies]

Thornton is the only guy I can think of that got the C taken away twice.

Thornton is at times fine defensively, but it comes and goes. It's an interest thing with him - when he's on he can be a legit checking line player, but getting him on seems to take a herculean effort.


So first - you brought up his career totals, not me.

Second - Thornton has a total of three playoff appearances where he was at least a point per game - showings of 11 games, 6 games, and 5 games. He was exactly a ppg in each one. Taking him from 1999-2016 (including those years because they are literally the most flattering to his total and leaving them out would actually hurt his PPG), his totals are 121 points in 150 games, and a -25, for a total of...

.8 points per game.

So yeah - including his geriatric years barely hurt his production because he's played for so long. And it's not like the Sharks were bad. They were actually quite good for most of that stretch - they won a Presidents' Trophy and finished first or second in their division 8 out of 9 years. Trying to retcon Thornton into anything but an abject failure in the playoffs is a fools errand. You adjust by surrounding him with unquestionable talent, not by bolstering his wreck of a resume.

he played hurt a few times in the playoffs once with broken ribs. I lived in NorCal 17 years- Thornton was not the problem. They might have won the Cup in 2011 if not for a stanchion and in 2014 if not for key injuries vs Kings and several other times… bad luck was more a factor …

questionable move to play possession every regular season game for years also… took a lot out of the tank when it mattered… see what I did?

there are others I’d point a finger at as well…

 

[Voight]

he played hurt a few times in the playoffs once with broken ribs. I lived in NorCal 17 years- Thornton was not the problem. They might have won the Cup in 2011 if not for a stanchion and in 2014 if not for key injuries vs Kings and several other times… bad luck was more a factor …

questionable move to play possession every regular season game for years also… took a lot out of the tank when it mattered… see what I did?

there are others I’d point a finger at as well…

Theres bad luck and then theres going 1-8 in back to back conference finals also giving up a 3-0 lead in a different series/year.

 

[tinyzombies]

Theres bad luck and then theres going 1-8 in back to back conference finals also giving up a 3-0 lead in a different series/year.

that can happen when you lose your #1 dman. He doesn’t get a gold star but he’s not the problem either