ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[Sturminator]

"xxx reasoned that Hull did not maximize his ability by being a stick-handler/playmaker. So xxx switched Hull to left wing and Mikita to center. Hull initially resisted.
"xxx decided that I was too dumb to be a center and Stan was too smart to be a winger," Hull said jokingly."

Interestingly, Hull's career ES/PP assists ratio is also higher than Mikita's: 2.25 vs. 1.95. If anything, Bobby was a better playmaker at even-strength than his already strong raw assist totals would indicate. He seems like a shoot-first player who should have feasted on powerplay assists, but he really didn't.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I agree I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'll look into it, but I have no issues with playing a LHS at his "natural" side

Sure, I'm fine with it. I didn't want to single you out, but I'm interested in this issue, and well, you picked Eddie Gerard and he's like my main example I'd like to get to he bottom of things with.

Also, I'm slightly annoyed at so many GMs not giving any second thoughts to defensemen sidedness, while I operate with that obstacle in mind. I am not saying this is your case here. I too am not sure of the sidedness of every defenseman around.

 

[Theokritos]

That Soviet coach was only familiar with age 36+ Hull, correct?

(Hull was 36 in the 1974 Summit Series)

No, he first watched Hull in his rookie season and attended NHL games whenever the Soviets toured North America, so he saw him (and other Canadian stars) in the NHL multiple times between 1957 and 1972.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Sure, I'm fine with it. I didn't want to single you out, but I'm interested in this issue, and well, you picked Eddie Gerard and he's like my main example I'd like to get to he bottom of things with.

Also, I'm slightly annoyed at so many GMs not giving any second thoughts to defensemen sidedness, when I operate with that obstacle in mind. I am not saying this is your case here. I too am not sure of the sidedness of every defenseman around.

I get it and your knowledge on Gerard is comparable/superior to mine on Taylor so if you say he was almost always a RD I differ to you on that

 

[Professor What]

Iain's listings in that thread aren't entirely accurate - he has Robinson/Savard on the wrong sides, among others.

We should really make an updated list at some point.

That would be an excellent resource for any new players in this. That was one of the things I struggled with most last year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I get it and your knowledge on Gerard is comparable/superior to mine on Taylor so if you say he was almost always a RD I differ to you on that

That's not what I am saying actually. My belief that he was RD lays on very thin ice, but that's the only data I have. A handful of games at best. Usually, they just never mentioned sides, which makes this problem hard to crack.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Iain's listings in that thread aren't entirely accurate - he has Robinson/Savard on the wrong sides, among others.

We should really make an updated list at some point.

I'm re-upping my newspaper.com and finishing the completion of my pre-consolidation newspaper scans soon so we'll finally have all this position mess sorted out.

Edit: Really just need to pace myself better it's so easy to get burned out and I'd like to be done before we really start the pre consolidation project

 

[RustyRazor]

Sure, I'm fine with it. I didn't want to single you out, but I'm interested in this issue, and well, you picked Eddie Gerard and he's like my main example I'd like to get to he bottom of things with.

Also, I'm slightly annoyed at so many GMs not giving any second thoughts to defensemen sidedness, while I operate with that obstacle in mind. I am not saying this is your case here. I too am not sure of the sidedness of every defenseman around.

I do this too and use that thread as a reference when I'm unsure. It would be great to get an update from those in the know.

 

[overpass]

Iain's listings in that thread aren't entirely accurate - he has Robinson/Savard on the wrong sides, among others.

We should really make an updated list at some point.

I don’t know if Robinson is wrong. He played LD in the 70s as a young player and moved to RD in the 80s as a veteran. He said he preferred playing the left side but moved to the right for the good of the team to babysit their young LDs.

I think Cleghorn also played both sides at different times. Bourque played mostly on the right but moved to the left in Colorado. Pronger did the same in Edmonton.

So yeah, many of these guys played both sides at different times in their career.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

The Hull Olympiques are proud to select, from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Norris and Conn Smythe winner, Duncan Keith.

Sorry for those expecting a shirtless picture of Keith, I only found a toothless one.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I do this too and use that thread as a reference when I'm unsure. It would be great to get an update from those in the know.

I think you linked the wrong thread.

I know which thread you were talking about though.

Here's another one for Soviet defensemen: Some soviet defensemen, Left or Right?

 

[BenchBrawl]

The way I understand it, the 1970's Canadiens Big Three all played on both sides, although Savard/Lapointe were a little more RD and Robinson a little more LD.

 

[RustyRazor]

I think you linked the wrong thread.

I know which thread you were talking about though.

Here's another one for Soviet defensemen: Some soviet defensemen, Left or Right?

Yeah, duh. 700 tabs open at all times for this thing. Thanks for the additional info.

 

[rmartin65]

Sure, I'm fine with it. I didn't want to single you out, but I'm interested in this issue, and well, you picked Eddie Gerard and he's like my main example I'd like to get to he bottom of things with.

Also, I'm slightly annoyed at so many GMs not giving any second thoughts to defensemen sidedness, while I operate with that obstacle in mind. I am not saying this is your case here. I too am not sure of the sidedness of every defenseman around.

I think you know more about Gerard than probably anyone on this board, so if you say you are fine with him playing, LD, I’m happy with it. I think the fact that he played part of his career in the point/coverpoint era also indicated that he would be able to play his natural side.

As for your broader point- I generally agree with you. That said, I am somewhat lenient when it comes to putting D on their natural sides. I wouldn’t put a LHS at RD without him having played there before, but a guy going to his natural side? I’m probably going to be fine with that unless there is something that indicates he can’t.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here's Canadiens1958 post in the "defensemen side" thread talking about the Big Three. I think he's a very good source for 1960's/1970's Canadiens teams.

Big Three

Canadiens Big Three - Savard, xxx, Robinson.

Serge Savard, initially came up with the xxxx. Rotated thru playing RD and LD, plus some time as a PK forward.
1969 Conn Smythe year mainly RD. After two serious leg injuries played mainly RD but would play LD to accommodate filler or rookie d-men or due to match-ups.

xxx. Initially played RD with xxx, mainly RD throughout his career except for match-ups/strategic reasons or when the Big 3 was being rotated - played ywo at a time.

Larry Robinson. Initially LD - OT goal against Flyers in 1973 and hit on Dornhoefer in 1976 Finals until he was comfortable on defence. Then tended to play both according to the pairing and match-up/strategic reasons. Post 1979 when the Canadiens were in the process of rejuvenating their defence would take the side opposite to the "rookies" strength. RD with Petr Svoboda, LD with Chris Chelios. etc.

Big 3 in rotation. Lapointe played more often at RD but depending on game situations you would see both combinations. Robinson RD with Savard LD or Robinson LD with Savard RD etc. Also the two would switch during a shift.

Example in the video showing the Yvon Lambert goal in Game 7. Serge Savard is lined-up at RD for the face-off, Robinson at LD. Yet on the Bruins rush Savard is playing LD ,stripping the puck cleanly after reading the play and transitioning for the winning goal:

 

[tabness]

The way I understand it, the 1970's Canadiens Big Three all played on both sides, although Savard/Lapointe were a little more RD and Robinson a little more LD.

I'm more familiar with Robinson in his (still excellent) eighties years (just more games readily available), where he was more a righty D, but @ChiTownPhilly had pointed out to me that he actually preferred his left side even if he seemed to play a lot more on the right in his later years.

That's the beauty of a guy like Robinson or Coffey (or both as I was very proud of getting in the OPPF draft lol) they both have significant time of proven play on both sides, so much easier to build with.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think you know more about Gerard than probably anyone on this board, so if you say you are fine with him playing, LD, I’m happy with it. I think the fact that he played part of his career in the point/coverpoint era also indicated that he would be able to play his natural side.

As for your broader point- I generally agree with you. That said, I am somewhat lenient when it comes to putting D on their natural sides. I wouldn’t put a LHS at RD without him having played there before, but a guy going to his natural side? I’m probably going to be fine with that unless there is something that indicates he can’t.

Even if I know Gerard pretty well, I don't know everything about him. For this sidedness business I only went with what the newspapers showed, and there's also that Point/Coverpoint factor, plus other, better sources might exist that I'm unaware. Books and interviews, perhaps.

For your second paragraph, my leniency will depend on how much we know a D played a specific side. If we KNOW the guy played LD as a RHS all his career, I will punish it more severely if you play him at RD. But I don't have anything close to that degree of proof for Gerard. Even Dreakmur's point was maybe "sides" didn't really exist because of the P/CP era should be taken into account. I'm not entirely sure when this stopped existing or what it means, given the newspapers interchangeably used P/CP and D as notation, until only D was used.

 

[VanIslander]

Robinson played both sides a lot.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Here's Canadiens1958 post in the "defensemen side" thread talking about the Big Three. I think he's a very good source for 1960's/1970's Canadiens teams.

a couple of undrafteds in there lol

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm more familiar with Robinson in his (still excellent) eighties years (just more games readily available), where he was more a righty D, but @ChiTownPhilly had pointed out to me that he actually preferred his left side even if he seemed to play a lot more on the right in his later years.

That's the beauty of a guy like Robinson or Coffey (or both as I was very proud of getting in the OPPF draft lol) they both have significant time of proven play on both sides, so much easier to build with.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when was Coffey RD?

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when was Coffey RD?

Overpass said he was in the previously linked thread with the Oilers

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Overpass said he was in the previously linked thread with the Oilers

Farther down in the thread, it was pointed out that he was LD in the 1983 Cup finals (with Edmonton). This based on video.

I know he was LD in the 1987 Canada Cup, in the 1991 Cup run with Pittsburgh, and when paired with Lidstrom in Detroit (despite Lidstrom being LD basically the rest of his career).

It's a shame there aren't better records of this.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Robinson played both sides a lot.

Oh yes, I kind of wasn't clear earlier - they were mostly LD for Robinson and RD for Savard when paired together, but played other positions outside the time.

Regardless Iain Fyffe's list isn't totally accurate.

 

[VanIslander]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when was Coffey RD?

Seriously?

The Oilers dynasty, he was 80% easily on the right side, more so on the pp. I was in youth hockey and choose #7 and modeled my game after him, but with less wheels and shot, but equal gumption.

 

[The Macho King]

Seriously?

The Oilers dynasty, he was 80% easily on the right side, more so on the pp. I was in youth hockey and choose #7 and modeled my game after him, but with less wheels and shot, but equal gumption.

Players often switch on the PP because it gives them better shooting lanes. I don't think that's really a point in favor of Coffey being a RD generally (but otherwise I have nothing to contribute here).