ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[Sturminator]

No reason a winger can't fill the role of the puck-transitioner.

The Soviets almost exclusively used wingers to carry the puck up ice, while the centers played more defensive roles. It's why we haven't seen a Soviet center drafted yet, and probably won't for some time now. It's still something of an odd-duck concept in the NHL, but there's a long history.

Going back to pre-war NHL days, I've always gotten the impression that the teams built around the old hook-checking centers (Nighbor, Boucher, et. al.) followed a similar concept. Wings driving the play offensively obviously allows the center to hang back a bit more and control the middle of the ice.

edit: typo

 

[The Macho King]

The Soviets almost exclusively used wingers to carry the puck up ice, while the centers played more defensive roles. It's why we haven't seen a Soviet center drafted yet, and probably won't for some time now. It's still something of an odd-duck concept in the NHL, but there's a long history.

Going back to pre-war NHL days, I've always gotten the impression that the teams build around the old hook-checking centers (Nighbor, Boucher, et. al.) followed a similar concept. Wings driving the play offensively obviously allows the center to hang back a bit more and control the middle of the ice.

70s Habs dynasty is also an example of this. And to an extent the 2010s Blackhawks. I won't mention a couple of others that come to mind because none of those players have been drafted yet, but while it is rare, I don't think it's unique in the NHL.

 

[overpass]

Bobby Clarke also had his LW do a lot of the puck carrying for the line in transition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The LW-as-grinder meme probably has a lot to do with the fact that most centers (and hockey players, generally), are left-handed, and therefore pass to the RW on their forehand.

Esposito's challenge mainly comes from the fact that he fulfills none of the defensive duties normally associated with playing center, and from the fact that almost everything about the 70s Bruins is distorted by the presence of Bobby Orr, and it's hard to know how the individual players would look outside of that context.

Espo also pretty much exclusively played with grinding wingers in Boston, as well as the 1972 Summit Series. (Though Bobby Hull would be something of a counter to this setup)

 

[Sturminator]

And yeah - the lack of defense is obviously a problem, but we don't say "oh geez it's so hard to build around Mario Lemieux."

Puck possession is it's own form of defense. Guys like Lemieux who could rag the puck for decades take a lot of pressure off of their own bluelines, and even they were well-served by wingers who could take the normal defensive responsibilities of a center (like Jari Kurri). Esposito doesn't fulfill this function, either, though. Other than maybe one undrafted, he's as much of a defensive black hole as you're likely to find at center.

It's certainly a surmountable challenge, but you don't want too many of those challenging players on one team. To me, the idea of starting an ATD team with Hull - Esposito sounds like playing chicken with a freight train.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That was my impression, so it checks. I just don't see the "hard to build around" issue. I mean - you have to put some thought into his wingers, I guess - which you don't really need to do with guys like Trottier or whatever. And I suppose you don't want a traditional sniper on his wing a la Kurri or Geoffrion. But beyond that it doesn't seem *too* bad. And he dragged around some wingers to great seasons in Boston (although obviously Orr played a role in that), so he knows how to use them and isn't a guy you have to worry trying to do it all on his own.

Unless I'm missing something.

"No traditional snipers" removes a very large number of top ATD wingers

 

[The Macho King]

"No traditional snipers" removes a very large number of top ATD wingers

Yeah fair I guess. I mean - there are a few others that look like they present similar challenges (and certain playmaking wingers probably provide a similar problem depending on the C you draft).

Puck possession is it's own form of defense. Guys like Lemieux who could rag the puck for decades take a lot of pressure off of their own bluelines, and even they were well-served by wingers who could take the normal defensive responsibilities of a center (like Jari Kurri). Esposito doesn't fulfill this function, either, though. Other than maybe one undrafted, he's as much of a defensive black hole as you're likely to find at center.

It's certainly a surmountable challenge, but you don't want too many of those challenging players on one team. To me, the idea of starting an ATD team with Hull - Esposito sounds like playing chicken with a freight train.

That's probably the lesson here. ATD functions more on "who doesn't have any significant holes" rather than anything else, and Espo provides a pretty significant hole you have to deal with. I just wonder if whether his draft position is already controlling for that when compared to his resume.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hull 1965 vs. 1975.?

Vs. 1975 .... ?!!!

He owned the mighty Soviets in 1974 then scored 77 points in 1975 in the higher-paying WHA.

Hull may be the 5th best player of all time.
(He may only be a marginal top-10 player, the gap is that small)

The point was in style - Bobby Hull was criticized on and off for not being a team player pretty much through the entire 1960s. But if you watch games from the 1970s, he backchecks and uses his linemates as well as you would expect from a star winger.

(Disclosure: I haven't seen much of 1960s Hull myself; I'm going on reporting. I have watched 1970s Hull)

____________

And just so I'm not exclusively picking on Bobby Hull, his competitors for #2 wing of all time have their own easy derogatory names as well:

Bobby Hull = puck hog!
Maurice Richard = cherry picker!
Jaromir Jagr = moody prima donna!

 

[VanIslander]

But Hull was NO LESS EFFECTIVE 1974-75 as he was in 1965.

So style points is beside the point, in this discussion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's probably the lesson here. ATD functions more on "who doesn't have any significant holes" rather than anything else, and Espo provides a pretty significant hole you have to deal with. I just wonder if whether his draft position is already controlling for that when compared to his resume.

You want units without big holes. So someone like Espo gives you big holes that you have to plug with other players. It's possible. It just takes more. And I tend to agree with Sturminator that it's probably easier to build around such players in a smaller draft.

 

[tinyzombies]

The Soviets almost exclusively used wingers to carry the puck up ice, while the centers played more defensive roles. It's why we haven't seen a Soviet center drafted yet, and probably won't for some time now. It's still something of an odd-duck concept in the NHL, but there's a long history.

Going back to pre-war NHL days, I've always gotten the impression that the teams built around the old hook-checking centers (Nighbor, Boucher, et. al.) followed a similar concept. Wings driving the play offensively obviously allows the center to hang back a bit more and control the middle of the ice.

edit: typo

Jack Han has a great analysis of their transition game. The centers would charge the middle, drop it and set a pick. If the opening wasn’t there they’d double back as we know. They were inspired by Knute Rockne.

 

[tinyzombies]

The point was in style - Bobby Hull was criticized on and off for not being a team player pretty much through the entire 1960s. But if you watch games from the 1970s, he backchecks and uses his linemates as well as you would expect from a star winger.

(Disclosure: I haven't seen much of 1960s Hull myself; I'm going on reporting. I have watched 1970s Hull)

____________

And just so I'm not exclusively picking on Bobby Hull, his competitors for #2 wing of all time have their own easy derogatory names as well:

Bobby Hull = puck hog!
Maurice Richard = cherry picker!
Jaromir Jagr = moody prima donna!

Harvey and Rocket had that stretch pass play down to perfection. That’s why he was the fastest from the blue line in, he always hit the line with speed. Hardly a cherry picker, that was by design.

 

[Sturminator]

That's why I think Lafleur was the better player skillwise, because nobody knew what he was going to do, he could skate and create lanes and set up teammates or he could shoot from far, or go one-on-one.

For the record, here are their respective top-10 regular-season assists records in the NHL:

Lafleur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5
Hull: 5, 5, 6, 6, 6

Lafleur was certainly the better playmaker of the two, but they're not that far apart, and at least one of Lafleur's regular linemates will get drafted in the ATD, while most GMs (myself included) still have to look up the names of Hull's regular linemates (other than Espo for a couple of seasons). It's simply not possible to produce like Hull did if you're playing a predictable style of hockey.

 

[tabness]

Yes, for that moment in time. The time of the games matters. If you watch Scott Stevens games from the late 1980s, it's a vastly different thing from Scott Stevens of the late 1990s. Same with Steve Yzerman.

And probably the same with Bobby Hull in 1965 vs 1975

Of course the development of the player throughout the career takes effect, but as @zffssk calls out, linemate changes and team systems change when a player is in one period of his skills development as well, but you can still get a good idea of general things how that player skates, his shot, puck control, even the decision making somehwat and so on teased out from the team system or linemates situation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For the record, here are their respective top-10 regular-season assists records in the NHL:

Lafleur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5
Hull: 5, 5, 6, 6, 6

Lafleur was certainly the better playmaker of the two, but they're not that far apart, and at least one of Lafleur's regular linemates will get drafted in the ATD, while most GMs (myself included) still have to look up the names of Hull's regular linemates (other than Espo for a couple of seasons). It's simply not possible to produce like Hull did if you're playing a predictable style of hockey.

Hull had some pretty stellar players to pass to on the PP though.

Didn't he also play the point on the PP a lot? That would increase his assists vs goals ratio. (This came up s few years back with Andy Bathgate, who was more of a goal scorer at even strength than his overall stats would have him appear - that's because he got tons of assists playing the point on the PP).

All that said, yes, I don't think anyone is saying Hull was a total shit passer, more that he held the puck in transition a lot. But yes, his assist numbers were certainly at least somewhat better than Rocket's or Ovechkin's.

 

[tinyzombies]

For the record, here are their respective top-10 regular-season assists records in the NHL:

Lafleur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5
Hull: 5, 5, 6, 6, 6

Lafleur was certainly the better playmaker of the two, but they're not that far apart, and at least one of Lafleur's regular linemates will get drafted in the ATD, while most GMs (myself included) still have to look up the names of Hull's regular linemates (other than Espo for a couple of seasons). It's simply not possible to produce like Hull did if you're playing a predictable style of hockey.

probably shot assists no?

 

[Dreakmur]

Orillia selects a smooth-skating power forward, Frank Mahovlich.

 

[nabby12]

Evgeni Malkin

 

[Sturminator]

That's probably the lesson here. ATD functions more on "who doesn't have any significant holes" rather than anything else, and Espo provides a pretty significant hole you have to deal with. I just wonder if whether his draft position is already controlling for that when compared to his resume.

Real-world hockey often functions this way, as well, so I don't have a problem with "ATD culture" in this sense.

There are certain players whose ATD draft positions are discounted relative to their historical achievements (i.e. where they'd place in an all-time top xxx list) due to perceived difficulties in building a team around them. Phil Esposito and Paul Coffey are the poster children for this phenomenon, though guys like Jagr, Taylor and Lalonde also fall into this category.

 

[Theokritos]

Saying Hull can't pass the puck is asinine. I've read it countless times on here.

Interestingly, a famous undrafted Soviet coach said Bobby Hull differed favorably from other NHL players by his willingness to pass the puck.

 

[The Macho King]

Real-world hockey often functions this way, as well, so I don't have a problem with "ATD culture" in this sense.

There are certain players whose ATD draft positions are discounted relative to their historical achievements (i.e. where they'd place in an all-time top xxx list) due to perceived difficulties in building a team around them. Phil Esposito and Paul Coffey are the poster children for this phenomenon, though guys like Jagr, Taylor and Lalonde also fall into this category.

Not dispositive in the least, but I think Coffey, Espo, and even Jagr go roughly the same place they ended up in the HoH top 100.

Only guys that get hit really hard in that regard are goalies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Orillia selects a smooth-skating power forward, Frank Mahovlich.

Love the pick (almost picked him over Abel), but wasn't he criticized for NOT using his size?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interestingly, a famous undrafted Soviet coach said Bobby Hull differed favorably from other NHL players by his willingness to pass the puck.

That Soviet coach was only familiar with age 36+ Hull, correct?

(Hull was 36 in the 1974 Summit Series)

 

[The Macho King]

Love the pick (almost picked him over Abel), but wasn't he criticized for NOT using his size?

A lot of his bio and the stuff you can find about him are his undrafted coach kinda hating him.

It's one of those things where I'm sure if you dig enough (especially about a Leafs player in their last Cup winning team), you can probably find quotes to bolster him however you want. But my image is along the lines of what you are saying.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Orillia selects a smooth-skating power forward, Frank Mahovlich.

I pegged you for this pick next to Clarke. Real solid value as well.