ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[The Macho King]

I added him, and he's packed in with the rest.

That's an insane take.

Scoring finishes of 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, and outscoring his linemates by 20+ points every season is not "packed in with the rest".

 

[BenchBrawl]

Howe and Jagr are 1-2 pretty easily.

After that, you've got Richard-Cook-Conacher-Bathgate-Makarov-Lafleur all piled in close together. Which of that group really stands out in regular season offensive production? The one thing that stands out to me is that Bathgate had the least help and the most competition for the leader board.

Which of those guys is definitively better than Bathgate in regular season offense?

Wasn't the fact Bathgate had least help actually contributing to his offensive scores? Be it because all the plays ran through him, or because he had more icetime, not to mention he probably saw more PP time from playing the point, although I can't verify his ratio because stupid NHL.COM stats page isn't working right now.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's an insane take.

I think you're under-rating Bathgate's offense. He went head to head with Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, and Bobby Hull and often came out ahead.

 

[The Macho King]

I think you're under-rating Bathgate's offense. He went head to head with Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, and Bobby Hull and often came out ahead.

He actually never came out ahead, which is why he doesn't have an Art Ross.

Like look - I'm not even trying to knock Bathgate. He's a fantastic player. But it's hyperbolic to call him the third best offensive RW.

 

[Dreakmur]

Wasn't the fact Bathgate had least help actually contributing to his offensive scores? Be it because all the plays ran through him, or because he had more icetime, not to mention he probably saw more PP time from playing the point, although I can't verify his ratio because stupid NHL.COM stats page isn't working right now.

Fair enough. Team quality often evens out, unless the team is ridiculously good or bad. More help and less ice time balances out.

 

[Dreakmur]

He actually never came out ahead, which is why he doesn't have an Art Ross.

He lost an Art Ross in a tie-breaker. He doesn't own the trophy but he did lead the league in scoring.

And here's the statistical results of his peak:
5 Year Peak: 1959 to 1963
1st in Points
2nd in Goals
1st in Assists

10 Year Peak: 1956 to 1965
2nd in Points
3rd in Goals
1st in Assists

During that time, all of Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, and Bobby Hull were all in the heart of their primes.

Like look - I'm not even trying to knock Bathgate. He's a fantastic player. But it's hyperbolic to call him the third best offensive RW.

I didn't say he was, I said he might be..... and it's completely reasonable discussion.

 

[Sturminator]

He actually never came out ahead, which is why he doesn't have an Art Ross.

He did tie Bobby Hull in points one year, but I guess lost on the tiebreaker, which was goals.

I think I understand Dreak's point that on talent Bathgate is arguably as good as any RW besides Howe and Jagr. But, of course, talent isn't the only thing we're drafting here. It's why nobody bats an eye when Richard goes before Jagr. I don't personally have Andy on quite the same talent level as Richard, Lafleur and Makarov, at least, but he was a tremendous talent. And, of course, results matter, and guys like Cook, Bossy, and Kane have that over Andy in spades.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He lost an Art Ross in a tie-breaker. He doesn't own the trophy but he did lead the league in scoring.

And here's the statistical results of his peak:
5 Year Peak: 1959 to 1963
1st in Points
2nd in Goals
1st in Assists

10 Year Peak: 1956 to 1965
2nd in Points
3rd in Goals
1st in Assists

During that time, all of Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, and Bobby Hull were all in the heart of their primes.



I didn't say he was, I said he might be..... and it's completely reasonable discussion.

Just a nitpick, but that was post-peak (but still long prime) Howe, and half comprised of pre-peak Hull.

 

[Dreakmur]

Just a nitpick, but that was post-peak (but still long prime) Howe, and half comprised of pre-peak Hull.

Does that reduce your view of his competition to think it isn't stronger than all the other guys in that pile?

 

[The Macho King]

Does that reduce your view of his competition to think it isn't stronger than all the other guys in that pile?

I mean, Lafleur is going up against Gretzky in the last year of his peak, Trottier, Esposito, UNDRAFTED who has a similar sort of resume as Bathgate, and Bobby Clarke. I don't think Bathgate's competition was qualitatively that much more impressive when you consider it's post-prime (or perhaps Late Prime?) Howe, a mostly post-dynasty Beliveau, and an early Hull and Mikita.

But like I said - I don't have any issues with Bathgate as a player and also not as a selection in that particular instance. For a guy with no postseason resume, he probably went right about where you would expect him to go, but he still brings a good skillset to the table.

Anyway - this is probably somewhat academic and I honestly wouldn't have commented on the pick at all absent that talking point.

 

[tinyzombies]

A case can be made for Lafleur as being 2nd or 3rd best winger ever. I don't know why Bobby Hull is ranked so far ahead and I don't know why Hull is ahead of the great Rocket Richard either. The Rocket carried teams on his back to the Cup and was a playoff monster and maybe the second best goal scorer ever? Maybe people are sick of all the Montreal players.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Does that reduce your view of his competition to think it isn't stronger than all the other guys in that pile?

I think it's weaker than the competition for mid/late prime Richard, who actually did compete with peak Howe, and Howe-boosted Lindsay.

Probably a little stronger than average though (for Bathgate's competition)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A case can be made for Lafleur as being 2nd or 3rd best winger ever. I don't know why Bobby Hull is ranked so far ahead and I don't know why Hull is ahead of the great Rocket Richard either. The Rocket carried teams on his back to the Cup and was a playoff monster and maybe the second best goal scorer ever? Maybe people are sick of all the Montreal players.

To make that case, you'd pretty much have to ignore longevity. And if you ignore longevity, you should be consistent, and dock players like Lidstrom quite a bit.

But yes, Lafleur's peak was awesome, arguably #2 after Howe if we are only talking best 5-6 years

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Hull's rookie year was 57-58, the 10 year period

He lost an Art Ross in a tie-breaker. He doesn't own the trophy but he did lead the league in scoring.

And here's the statistical results of his peak:
5 Year Peak: 1959 to 1963
1st in Points
2nd in Goals
1st in Assists

10 Year Peak: 1956 to 1965
2nd in Points
3rd in Goals
1st in Assists

During that time, all of Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, and Bobby Hull were all in the heart of their primes.



I didn't say he was, I said he might be..... and it's completely reasonable discussion.

Hull's rookie year was 57-58, if the 10 year period started in 55-56, saying he scored more than Hull over that time period doesn't mean much.

That being said, I think your overall point stands, Bathgate had far and away the best regular season offense of any winger remaining when he was picked (and arguably best regular season offense of any forward, not just wingers).

 

[Dreakmur]

I think it's weaker than the competition for mid/late prime Richard, who actually did compete with peak Howe, and Howe-boosted Lindsay.

Probably a little stronger than average though.

There’s already been like 10 guys drafted who went head to head with Bathgate….

 

[The Macho King]

A case can be made for Lafleur as being 2nd or 3rd best winger ever. I don't know why Bobby Hull is ranked so far ahead and I don't know why Hull is ahead of the great Rocket Richard either. The Rocket carried teams on his back to the Cup and was a playoff monster and maybe the second best goal scorer ever? Maybe people are sick of all the Montreal players.

Hull has the goalscoring over both (at least in finishes). Hull also didn't really have a linemate to boost him (although neither did Lafleur).

 

[tabness]

There’s already been like 10 guys drafted who went head to head with Bathgate….

If I had gotten my four picks in the fifties Bathgate would be someone I looked very closely at. Like the guy who was a contemporary with Lafleur, he just seems to be a real underrated guy.

 

[The Macho King]

To make that case, you'd pretty much have to ignore longevity. And if you ignore longevity, you should be consistent, and dock players like Lidstrom quite a bit.

But yes, Lafleur's peak was awesome, arguably #2 after Howe if we are only talking best 5-6 years

Lafleur benefits from his regular season peak matching really strong postseason performances, too. Obviously Howe has that as well, but this does distinguish him from guys like Jagr (whose playoffs are fine but doesn't really tip the scales in his favor) or Kane (whose playoffs predate real impressive regular season finishes).

 

[Johnny Engine]

I’ll take Martin Brodeur.

 

[The Macho King]

I’ll take Martin Brodeur.

I was trying to trade up higher but @Voight apparently doesn't answer PMs.

BPA. Well done.

 

[tinyzombies]

To make that case, you'd pretty much have to ignore longevity. And if you ignore longevity, you should be consistent, and dock players like Lidstrom quite a bit.

But yes, Lafleur's peak was awesome, arguably #2 after Howe if we are only talking best 5-6 years

This is me ignoring longevity (whistles). Orr has longevity ignored compared to Gretzky, same goes for Lafleur in my book. Guy was a superstar, not just a star as he's portrayed here.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I’ll take Martin Brodeur.

Love Brodeur. Exactly what you want in a G. Stability, workhorse, third defenseman abilities. May not be as clutch as a Roy or Sawchuk, but you could always rely on him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Last of the "traditional #1 defensemen"* available:

*from back when ATD was bigger

Bill Gadsby, D

Hard hitting, high scoring defenseman who transitioned to being more of a stay-at-home guy later in his career.

3x 1st Team All Star
4x 2nd Team All Star

Peaked at more or less the same time as Harvey and Kelly.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Love Brodeur. Exactly what you want in a G. Stability, workhorse, third defenseman abilities. May not be as clutch as a Roy or Sawchuk, but you could always rely on him.

I was very impressed with the studies HO did on his playoff contributions along with the adjusted save % metrics. He was very good in the playoffs. My #4 all time at the position behind Roy, Hasek, and Plante. To me, Brodeur is Glenn Hall (his longevity and # of times starting 70 games are absurd, like Hall) with an upgraded resume in the postseason.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Last of the "traditional #1 defensemen"* available:

*from back when ATD was 30ish teams

Bill Gadsby, D

Hard hitting, high scoring defenseman who transitioned to being more of a stay-at-home guy later in his career.

3x 1st Team All Star
4x 2nd Team All Star

Peaked at more or less the same time as Harvey and Kelly.

Solid #2. Probably underrated but it's hard to say, since he was alone on his island as #3 of his era. Would have considered him if the fit was better with Cleghorn.