ATD 2021 Assassination Thread

[Johnny Engine]

I gave both Makarov and Kharlamov 90. Martinec got an 80.

I just finished looking at that - so this was arbitrary?
I don't have a problem with that, just checking.

 

[Dreakmur]

I just finished looking at that - so this was arbitrary?
I don't have a problem with that, just checking.

Somewhat arbitrary, though a lot of thought went into most of them. I've bounced a lot of those guys around, trying to find comparable players with known stat lines.

 

[tinyzombies]

I gave both Makarov and Kharlamov 90. Martinec got an 80.



I didn't use ES numbers. That chart is from 1960 forward, not all time.

If there ES numbers are better than their overall numbers, they cannot be good on the PP too.

Ratelle is 53%/1.18

Mahovlich is 67%/1.04 but that's only because Imlach made him play goalie.

 

[Dreakmur]

Ratelle is 53%/1.18

Mahovlich is 67%/1.04 but that's only because Imlach made him play goalie.

That's how much they played, and how good the PP was compared to league average. It doesn't measure how productive they were as individuals.

 

[RustyRazor]

Guelph Platers
1986 Memorial Cup Champions

Home Rink: Guelph Memorial Gardens (1948)
GM: BraveCanadian
Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Syl Apps Sr.
Alternates: Hap Day / Alf Smith


Alexander Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Paul Thompson - Syl Apps Sr. - Alf Smith
Kevin Stevens - John Tavares - Bobby Rousseau
Gilles Tremblay - Don Luce - Jean Pronovost

"Moose" Johnson - Brad Park
Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
Andrei Markov - Jiri Bubla

Ken Dryden
Pekka Rinne

Reserves
Nathan MacKinnon - Bill Hajt - Jason Pominville

Powerplay:
PP1: Alexander Ovechkin - Syl Apps Sr. - Bryan Hextall Sr. - Andrei Markov - Brad Park
PP2: Paul Thompson - Adam Oates - Kevin Stevens - Bobby Rousseau - Jiri Bubla

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Don Luce - Gilles Tremblay - Moose Johnson - Sylvio Mantha
PK2: Adam Oates - Jean Pronovost - Hap Day - Brad Park​

I feel completely under-qualified to do one of these, since I have to look up most of these guys in the bio thread every time I see their names in order to keep them straight, but I'll give it a shot with a team I like.

Arbour is obviously a top 5 coach of all time and could have his teams play any style he needed.

I love the first line -- one of my favorite in the draft. Ovechkin and Hextall can play a heavy game and Oates can win faceoffs and set up Ovechkin for his patented one-timer while Hextall crashes the net looking for loose change. Very well constructed. I like your second line as well although it doesn't feel like a classic second line with less scoring and more of a defensive conscious. I can see the scoring, but not sure about the defense. Apps was a solid defensive center but when researching Smith and Thompson for my team I didn't find much on their defense. So, that's a question mark for me. I still like this line.

The third and fourth lines feel more like 3a/3b to me with one as more of a scoring group and one as a pure checking trio. I really like the checker unit of Tremblay - Luce - Pronovost. The Stevens - Tavares - Rousseau line is the weakest spot of your team to me, as I don't know if they score that well on an ATD level, don't really seem like an energy line, and don't provide great defense.

Johnson and Park is a terrific pairing -- Johnson playing physical and allowing Park to excel in the tw0-way role that he played throughout his career. Day and Mantha will be a tough match-up for any coach as a second pairing. They both can distribute the puck but will be very strong inside their own end. Great top 4, I think. Bubla is an enigma to me and I feel like I didn't appreciate Markov during his career. Not a great bottom pair, but with your top 4, I don't think they'll be playing a ton of minutes.

Dryden is a legend and is a money goaltender in the playoffs. I don't know of a Top line, Top pairing and starting netminder combo that I think is better in the draft. Great job. Rinne is meh to me, but you aren't winning or losing on the strength of your back-up goalie.

PP1 will be be lethal with Ovechkin in his office and Hextall screening in front - I'd be tempted to use Oates on your top unit as he was wonderful at setting Hull up in a similar role in StL but I understand not wanting to over use him as well. Apps will be no slouch.

Both PKs look like they will be middle of the pack as far as this ATD goes.

Overall I like the look of your team a lot. Nice job.

 

[nabby12]

Montreal Maroons​

​

Home: Montreal Forum; Montreal, QC
Two-Time Stanley Cup Champs (1926, 1935)

Coach: Fred Shero
Captain: Jack Stewart
Alternates: Howie Morenz & Aurele Joliat

Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Brett Hull
Vladimir Krutov - Bill Cowley - Bill Mosienko
George Hay - Frank Fredrickson - Bernie Morris
Murray Murdoch - Dick Irvin - Rick Tocchet

Lionel Hitchman - Jack Stewart
Lionel Conacher - Red Horner
Jim Neilson - Red Dutton

Terry Sawchuk
Gump Worsley

Extra Skaters: Ab McDonald, Dan Bain, Sandis Ozolinsh

PP1: Krutov, Cowley, Morenz - Conacher, Hull
PP2: Joliat, Irvin, Hay - Neilson, Mosienko
PK1: Morenz-Joliat, Hitchman, Stewart
PK2: Murdoch, Fredrickson, Conacher, Dutton​

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm planning to spend an afternoon/evening on this sometime this week

When do we think voting should start?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Thank you for jumping in to take over this team!

And thanks for the feedback. To touch on some interesting points you made...

My biggest concern in selecting Gorman was how he'd handle the relationship with Suchý. I satisfied myself that the discoverer/successful courtier of King Clancy would appreciate and utilize Suchý's transition-play skills. [Was curious that you opined about a possible "lack-of-talent" from the Ragulin-Suchý combo. There are legitimate criticisms that can be directed against Suchý- but I'd never heard lack-of-talent applied as one of them.]

I had earlier been a Nighbor-skeptic... but I've seen the light and now believe, as evidenced by my HoH top-100 Preliminary Ranking of 23, behind Messier but ahead of Cyclone Taylor (sorry, Beast), Trottier and certainly Mikita. Those who've looked at the matter are well aware that Nighbor's absence from the Ottawa line-up nerfed the entire team's GAA. What might not be so clear is that he is his era's prime Dishmeister. He ascended to the top of the NHL-charts in Assists in his 2nd season, and held that place all the way to his retirement. If Nighbor was any less than a very good set-up man, then one would have to claim that very good set-up men simply didn't exist in that era. [It's also why I'm cool with him on PP1(!)]

You laid your cards on the table re: Madden early- and have been consistent in your viewpoint. For me, I think that the player who man-marked young Jágr won't be in-too-deep in this setting. Besides (if it even matters), all of the other LWs are playing more ES minutes than Madden. He has a role- and there are enough quality RWs in the Division/Conference that I think it'll work out.

Don't have a big problem with your assessment of Claude Lemieux- but honestly, no-one picks him with the idea of competing for the ATD "Presidents-Trophy."

As pertains to the set-up of Special Teams, particularly Power Play, I discovered that one could ask 10 different people about the set-up and probably get 10 different answers. The common denominator is Denneny in deep, and Potvin on First Unit.

I preferred Giordano to Ragulin on PK-2 for the increased mobility. That said, I could use Ragulin a bit more in the smaller arenas where the reduction of mobility isn't as big a deal.

I went for Dzurílla at back-up, not because he's statistically the finest Goaltender I could have selected- but because he could well be the most harmonious one I could have chosen. I also considered Glenn "Chico" Resch. Nice to have one "Deacon" type on a squad (c.f.: Paddy Moran). However, I already have my "Deacon." [Jack Darragh.]

 

[BraveCanadian]

I feel completely under-qualified to do one of these, since I have to look up most of these guys in the bio thread every time I see their names in order to keep them straight, but I'll give it a shot with a team I like.

Arbour is obviously a top 5 coach of all time and could have his teams play any style he needed.

I love the first line -- one of my favorite in the draft. Ovechkin and Hextall can play a heavy game and Oates can win faceoffs and set up Ovechkin for his patented one-timer while Hextall crashes the net looking for loose change. Very well constructed. I like your second line as well although it doesn't feel like a classic second line with less scoring and more of a defensive conscious. I can see the scoring, but not sure about the defense. Apps was a solid defensive center but when researching Smith and Thompson for my team I didn't find much on their defense. So, that's a question mark for me. I still like this line.

The third and fourth lines feel more like 3a/3b to me with one as more of a scoring group and one as a pure checking trio. I really like the checker unit of Tremblay - Luce - Pronovost. The Stevens - Tavares - Rousseau line is the weakest spot of your team to me, as I don't know if they score that well on an ATD level, don't really seem like an energy line, and don't provide great defense.

Johnson and Park is a terrific pairing -- Johnson playing physical and allowing Park to excel in the tw0-way role that he played throughout his career. Day and Mantha will be a tough match-up for any coach as a second pairing. They both can distribute the puck but will be very strong inside their own end. Great top 4, I think. Bubla is an enigma to me and I feel like I didn't appreciate Markov during his career. Not a great bottom pair, but with your top 4, I don't think they'll be playing a ton of minutes.

Dryden is a legend and is a money goaltender in the playoffs. I don't know of a Top line, Top pairing and starting netminder combo that I think is better in the draft. Great job. Rinne is meh to me, but you aren't winning or losing on the strength of your back-up goalie.

PP1 will be be lethal with Ovechkin in his office and Hextall screening in front - I'd be tempted to use Oates on your top unit as he was wonderful at setting Hull up in a similar role in StL but I understand not wanting to over use him as well. Apps will be no slouch.

Both PKs look like they will be middle of the pack as far as this ATD goes.

Overall I like the look of your team a lot. Nice job.

Thanks for the review. I did originally think of putting Oates in that first PP unit but then I decided to go with all the big guns because Apps was a fine playmaker as well as a goal scoring threat himself. Plenty of options on that first PP and Oates still has a couple of strong PP finishers to dish to on the second unit.

As for Stevens - Tavares - Rousseau: They are a 3rd scoring line and I think they have all the elements.

Tavares could be a 2nd liner in this draft.. offensively he's close to that 80s cadre of centers that are second liners every year, and defensively I'm pretty confident he's better than some of them. Rousseau could probably be offensively, but he has his warts so he is safer here sheltered on a third line. Rousseau and Tavares are both good enough two-ways and Stevens gives the line (especially Rousseau) size and someone to get dirty in the corners and in the front of the net. Stevens' longevity limits some of the offensive metrics that we use here pretty badly, but he's not out of place on a 3rd line even still. We have threats throughout the lineup.

Even our 4th line which could be employed as an old school checking line has 3 players who can pop some at even strength.

 

[tony d]

Pittsburgh AC:

Original Red and White colours of the AC

"No individuals. One TEAM."

Many thanks for the review, I'll do yours now with my comments in bold.

Coach: Pete Green

Pete is one of those coaches all-time who is in the bottom half of coaches in a 24 team draft. That's saying more about the small number of teams in this draft than about Green's qualities as coach.

Captain: Scott Stevens
Alternate: Bobby Orr
Alternate: Yvan Cournoyer
Alternate: Joe Malone

Leadership looks solid. Stevens and of course Orr especially.

ROSTER:


Forwards:

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone (A) - Vladimir Martinec

Malone was one of my first favorite players all time. Could be argued he may be one of the first real superstars in hockey history. He was a pick of mine and @DaveG in my first ATD in 2011. Martinec will add some offensive punch to the line and should work well with Malone. Bucyk may be the glue guy here, he's a good add for your team because of his talents but as well as his familiairization with Orr, overall a solid 1st line.

Bun Cook - Jacques Lemaire - Yvan Cournoyer (A)

Cook is another player I've always liked, seems like he may provide a bit of everything to your team. Had Lemaire on one of my teams last year, he's more towards the end of 2nd line centers in this thing though but again this is more about the small draft size this year than anything else. Cournoyer was a pick of mine in 2012. The Roadrunner as he was known will provide goal scoring to your team and the familarity is there with Lemaire as well. Overall a solid 2nd line.

Rusty Crawford - Dale Hawerchuk - Glenn Anderson

Crawford and Hawerchuk should make for a solid offensive duo. I've had both players before. Hawerchuk was always such a solid player and probably would be more regarded had he not played his prime in Winnipeg. Glenn Anderson is the glue guy here, that is a role he'll enjoy. This 3rd line is more of the offensive variety but it still will work fine.

Nick Metz - Phil Goyette - Bill Guerin

This looks like your checking line, if so you got a good one. Metz is one of the better defensive left wingers of all time. Goyette will provide some added defense to this line as well. Guerin is your team's power forward/goon player who will chip in some offense as well. Overall a 4th line that will get the job done.

Dave Poulin

Alex Tanguay

Your typical extra forwards, one will provide good defensive play (Poulin), and the other offensive play (Tanguay). Should be able to fill in on your team in a pinch.

Defensemen:

Scott Stevens (C) - Bobby Orr (A)

This is an awesome pairing. Both guys would be believable #1 defensemen in a draft this size and you got both of them here. I know a lot of people called it the best defensive pairing in this draft and I think they're right.

Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert

I had scouted Laperriere because of the familiarity with Robinson. Solid pick for your team. Seibert is another great defensemen on your team. Your top 4 on defense is one of the top things to like on your team.

Flash Hollett - Ken Morrow

Hollett is another solid offensive defenseman on your team, I could see him getting some time in the top 4 as well in a close game if you want some added offensive punch. Morrow will handle the defensive aspect of the pairing quite well. A classic offensive guy defensive guy defensive pairing. Overall a good way to complement your strong group of starting defensemen.

Gennadiy Tsygankov

A solid extra dman for your team, I can see him filling in for Morrow from time to time.


Goalies:

Johnny Bower

Hap Holmes

Given the strength of your defense you didn't have to pick one of the top tier of goalies of all time and you never. You went Bower who I have in the middle tier of goalies here. He shouldn't hurt your team though. Hap Holmes is going to be one of the better backups in the league so you'll be fine in a pinch if Bower wants/needs a night off.

Special Teams:

PP1

Malone

Seibert - Cournoyer - Bucyk

Orr

PP2

Martinec - Lemaire - Anderson
Hawerchuk - Hollett

PK1

Cook - Metz
Stevens - Orr

PK2

Goyette/Poulin - Crawford/Martinec
Laperriere - Morrow/Tsygankov

Good special teams here. Very good balance on your 2 power plays. Your pk is solid as well. Stevens,Orr and Metz will be a formidable trio on your top pk.

Overall thoughts

A very strong team here as usual, good luck to you in the rest of the ATD process.

 

[Dreakmur]

my biggest concern in selecting Gorman was how he'd handle the relationship with Suchý. I satisfied myself that the discoverer/successful courtier of King Clancy would appreciate and utilize Suchý's transition-play skills. [Was curious that you opined about a possible "lack-of-talent" from the Ragulin-Suchý combo. There are legitimate criticisms that can be directed against Suchý- but I'd never heard lack-of-talent applied as one of them.]

It's not a comment about the skill or style of a player. I just look at players and compare them to other rosters.

I had earlier been a Nighbor-skeptic... but I've seen the light and now believe, as evidenced by my HoH top-100 Preliminary Ranking of 23, behind Messier but ahead of Cyclone Taylor (sorry, Beast), Trottier and

certainly Mikita. Those who've looked at the matter are well aware that Nighbor's absence from the Ottawa line-up nerfed the entire team's GAA. What might not be so clear is that he is his era's prime Dishmeister. He ascended to the top of the NHL-charts in Assists in his 2nd season, and held that place all the way to his retirement. If Nighbor was any less than a very good set-up man, then one would have to claim that very good set-up men simply didn't exist in that era. [It's also why I'm cool with him on PP1(!)]

Yes, Nighbor is one of the top 3 defensive forwards of all time.

Here are Nighbor's consolidated Assist finishes: 1st(1926), 2nd(1920), 3rd(1917), 3rd(1919), 5th(1924), 8th(1921), 11th(1918), 15th(1915), 16th(1916), 17th(1922)

I think he's in the pack of players that includes Clarke, Messier, and Trottier.

You laid your cards on the table re: Madden early- and have been consistent in your viewpoint. For me, I think that the player who man-marked young Jágr won't be in-too-deep in this setting. Besides (if it even matters), all of the other LWs are playing more ES minutes than Madden. He has a role- and there are enough quality RWs in the Division/Conference that I think it'll work out.

He's not a winger, so he cannot play that position well. Using him to match up against RWs is going to be a disaster.

As I said, he's a 4th liner at his proper position. Take him out of his position, and bring him up the line-up? That's not going to work at all.

Don't have a big problem with your assessment of Claude Lemieux- but honestly, no-one picks him with the idea of competing for the ATD "Presidents-Trophy."

Claude Lemieux is better in the play-offs than regular season, that's for sure. The questions are how much better, and better than what?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pittsburgh AC:

Original Red and White colours of the AC

"No individuals. One TEAM."

Many thanks for the review, I'll do yours now with my comments in bold.

Coach: Pete Green

Pete is one of those coaches all-time who is in the bottom half of coaches in a 24 team draft. That's saying more about the small number of teams in this draft than about Green's qualities as coach.

Captain: Scott Stevens
Alternate: Bobby Orr
Alternate: Yvan Cournoyer
Alternate: Joe Malone

Leadership looks solid. Stevens and of course Orr especially.

ROSTER:


Forwards:

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone (A) - Vladimir Martinec

Malone was one of my first favorite players all time. Could be argued he may be one of the first real superstars in hockey history. He was a pick of mine and @DaveG in my first ATD in 2011. Martinec will add some offensive punch to the line and should work well with Malone. Bucyk may be the glue guy here, he's a good add for your team because of his talents but as well as his familiairization with Orr, overall a solid 1st line.

Bun Cook - Jacques Lemaire - Yvan Cournoyer (A)

Cook is another player I've always liked, seems like he may provide a bit of everything to your team. Had Lemaire on one of my teams last year, he's more towards the end of 2nd line centers in this thing though but again this is more about the small draft size this year than anything else. Cournoyer was a pick of mine in 2012. The Roadrunner as he was known will provide goal scoring to your team and the familarity is there with Lemaire as well. Overall a solid 2nd line.

Rusty Crawford - Dale Hawerchuk - Glenn Anderson

Crawford and Hawerchuk should make for a solid offensive duo. I've had both players before. Hawerchuk was always such a solid player and probably would be more regarded had he not played his prime in Winnipeg. Glenn Anderson is the glue guy here, that is a role he'll enjoy. This 3rd line is more of the offensive variety but it still will work fine.

Nick Metz - Phil Goyette - Bill Guerin

This looks like your checking line, if so you got a good one. Metz is one of the better defensive left wingers of all time. Goyette will provide some added defense to this line as well. Guerin is your team's power forward/goon player who will chip in some offense as well. Overall a 4th line that will get the job done.

Dave Poulin

Alex Tanguay

Your typical extra forwards, one will provide good defensive play (Poulin), and the other offensive play (Tanguay). Should be able to fill in on your team in a pinch.

Defensemen:

Scott Stevens (C) - Bobby Orr (A)

This is an awesome pairing. Both guys would be believable #1 defensemen in a draft this size and you got both of them here. I know a lot of people called it the best defensive pairing in this draft and I think they're right.

Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert

I had scouted Laperriere because of the familiarity with Robinson. Solid pick for your team. Seibert is another great defensemen on your team. Your top 4 on defense is one of the top things to like on your team.

Flash Hollett - Ken Morrow

Hollett is another solid offensive defenseman on your team, I could see him getting some time in the top 4 as well in a close game if you want some added offensive punch. Morrow will handle the defensive aspect of the pairing quite well. A classic offensive guy defensive guy defensive pairing. Overall a good way to complement your strong group of starting defensemen.

Gennadiy Tsygankov

A solid extra dman for your team, I can see him filling in for Morrow from time to time.


Goalies:

Johnny Bower

Hap Holmes

Given the strength of your defense you didn't have to pick one of the top tier of goalies of all time and you never. You went Bower who I have in the middle tier of goalies here. He shouldn't hurt your team though. Hap Holmes is going to be one of the better backups in the league so you'll be fine in a pinch if Bower wants/needs a night off.

Special Teams:

PP1

Malone

Seibert - Cournoyer - Bucyk

Orr

PP2

Martinec - Lemaire - Anderson
Hawerchuk - Hollett

PK1

Cook - Metz
Stevens - Orr

PK2

Goyette/Poulin - Crawford/Martinec
Laperriere - Morrow/Tsygankov

Good special teams here. Very good balance on your 2 power plays. Your pk is solid as well. Stevens,Orr and Metz will be a formidable trio on your top pk.

Overall thoughts

A very strong team here as usual, good luck to you in the rest of the ATD process.

Thanks for the review Tony! Appreciate the kind words bud. Good luck to you as well.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I really don't want to spend a lot of time on this, as there are so many interesting teams left to discuss.

As I said, [Madden]'s a 4th liner at his proper position. Take him out of his position, and bring him up the line-up? That's not going to work at all.

I went looking through some old drafts to see if there was any suggestion that use of Madden at LW would somehow be fatal. [There are plenty to peruse, seeing as how it's happened more than half-a-dozen times within the last half-decade or so.] Sub-optimal use? Sure- okay (but even then, you kind of have to dig for it). Disastrous, though(?!) No- never heard that one- until now. What changed?!?

I got a guess.

The idea that using Madden at LW (for 8 minutes of ES-time) is a disaster- along with the assertion that Suchý "lacks talent" [I mean, the eye-test really is Suchý's calling card, isn't it? He just freaking POPS on the eye-test] don't appear to me to be suggestive of anything other than sometimes, one just has to have a water-softener-size block of the ol' NaCl when dealing with in-Division Assassinations.

 

[Dreakmur]

I really don't want to spend a lot of time on this, as there are so many interesting teams left to discuss.I went looking through some old drafts to see if there was any suggestion that use of Madden at LW would somehow be fatal. [There are plenty to peruse, seeing as how it's happened more than half-a-dozen times within the last half-decade or so.] Sub-optimal use? Sure- okay (but even then, you kind of have to dig for it). Disastrous, though(?!) No- never heard that one- until now. What changed?!?

Sub-optimal... for a guy who should be a 4th liner at his true position.

I got a guess.

I'm just being honest in my evaluations. Sure there's bias in them, but I don't want to give flowery reviews, and then try to bury you in a series.

I know I want real feedback to I can make adjustments before voting starts.

The idea that using Madden at LW (for 8 minutes of ES-time) is a disaster- along with the assertion that Suchý "lacks talent" [I mean, the eye-test really is Suchý's calling card, isn't it? He just freaking POPS on the eye-test] don't appear to me to be suggestive of anything other than sometimes, one just has to have a water-softener-size block of the ol' NaCl when dealing with in-Division Assassinations.

The idea that Madden can't play LW comes from him not being a LW. He can't do it, at all.

As for Suchy, he's got 2 elite seasons. After that, it's hard to evaluate. How good is a 2nd or 3rd place scoring finish in the Czech league? Probably not top-10 world-wide, right?

 

[The Macho King]

Re: The Madden thing.

There's two ways of looking at it. One - could he do it? Answer - probably. LW isn't a super complicated position to play. Some teams move Centers to Wing all the time with little to no ill effects (I couldn't even tell you who of Gourde Stamkos Cirelli and Point played C last game because Tampa puts two Cs per line and it works out just fine). Like in the real world, some Coach says "hey Madden - line up on Wing this game" do I think he would be an embarassment? Probably not. He'd probably be fine, and maybe even good.

But if you go down that road, why aren't we just drafting 80% Centers for all the forward spots? Center is by far the deeper position historically, and LW is generally weaker, so unless it's Bobby Hull or Alex Ovechkin, why aren't we just putting any ol' Left Shot Center on the wing? I think the spirit of the project is to look at how the players were actually used, and not say "eh I think they would be fine there" absent some historical support.

 

[tabness]

The reasoning for the positional unwritten rule seems very arbitrary though. Players are played in all sorts of anachronistic ways.

We have modern roster sizes (four forward lines, three defense pairings, two goalies) that does not represent the early periods of hockey (and even when formally represented for sone periods it was really still three lines for example).

We also don’t draft rovers as rovers, or formally play players in the point or coverpoint role but just fit that into a pretty modern view of defense (sometimes forward).

Some participants list (very recent) ice time charts, which really only reflects the maturation of the short shift game in the last twenty years or so?

Even beyond those examples, you have players playing way down in the lineup where they were accustomed to playing top line or top pairing roles. Just about every backup goalie taken in this thing was a starter.

Fundamentally, the draft encourages a mixing and matching between vastly different eras of play with an eye to how the players and their skillsets could adapt, in just about every way except positionally (which also seems to be enforced more strictly on more recent players as just contextually the position listings were less fluid than in hockey’s earliest times).

 

[Professor What]

Well, if we decided any center could play wing (which I don't really agree with since we know that there are plenty of players who don't look so comfortable out of their regular position) and started drafting them as such, a whole position would get all but ignored, save for the top few of them. @The Macho King vey rightly pointed out that center is much deeper than left wing, and it's even more pronounced than that, really. We're basically talking about the single position with the most depth vs the single position with less depth. So, let's just say that half of the left wing spots were filled by centers (probably not so far-fetched in this example), ignoring right wing for a moment. In a draft this size, we'd end up with 144 centers and only 48 left wings. If we then bring right wing into it and say replace a quarter of them with centers, now we have 168 centers. Honestly, depth aside of positions aside, are we really more interested in learning about the 168th best center than the 49th best left wing? When it gets down to it, there's a reason that players play where they do, and if we so broadly ignored a position's history, there's a major knowledge gap. I see nothing good that comes from that.

There's no ignoring that this puts a twist on history, but shouldn't it do it in a way that broadens understanding of that history? Before I joined in this draft, I'd never put any significantly deep thought into how these various players would compare, contrast, and cooperate on the ice together, but piecing together how it would work and discussing it here has broadened my understanding a lot. I'd never thought about Lindsay, Francis, and Richard playing together, but figuring out how to build that line forced me to learn more about their respective games and how they played their positions by thinking about how their skills would compliment. I don't see how we get that by ignoring established positional associations.

 

[ImporterExporter]

New York Americans

Coach: Tommy Ivan
Toe Blake - Steven Stamkos - Gordie Howe (A)
Dany Heatley - Elmer Lach - Larry Aurie
Bob Pulford - Walt Tkaczuk - Tony Leswick
Vic Stasiuk - Eric Staal - Alexei Kovalev
Ryan O'Reilly - Ron Stewart

Zdeno Chara (C)- Tim Horton
Harvey Pulford (A)- Brent Burns
Vitali Davydov - Joe Hall
Reed Larson

Clint Benedict
Mar-Andre Fleury

PP
Gordie Howe - Elmer Lach
Steven Stamkos - Dany Heatley
Brent Burns

Toe Blake - Eric Staal - Alexei Kovalev
Joe Hall - Zdeno Chara

PK
Bob Pulford - Tony Leswick
Zdeno Chara - Tim Horton

Walt Tkaczuk - Larry Aurie
Harvey Pulford - Vitali Davydov

PK3
Toe Blake - Elmer Lach​

Great effort rmart! That top line is probably my favorite of the draft. Looking forward to seeing how your team does sir.

Coaching:

Ivan is a good coach here. I have him just inside the top 10 all time. Could have probably ended up higher if not for the meddling of the mega asshole Jack Adams. Players coach, offensively slanted but those Detroit teams finished 1st or 2nd in goals against every year of Ivan's tenure from 47-48 through 53-54 which saw 3 Cups come to Detroit. He's got his old war horse in Howe. Blake should replicate a lot of the things Lindsay did on LW. Let's not forget you also gave him more real life ammo with Leswick and Stasiuk. The one thing he had in Detroit that doesn't really exist here, is that top flight puck mover from the back end. Burns is good but on a 2nd pair. Overall though, it's a roster I think he can do good things with.

Leadership:

Chara is a solid captain here. Long time C at the NHL level and won a Cup in that role w/Boston. Howe and Pulford are excellent alternates. Marc Andre Fleury was such a calming and light character over the years for Pittsburgh in real life. His presence, even when Matt Murray took his job was talked about as being a hidden factor in keeping the team loose during the back to back title runs.

Forwards:

That top line is lethal. Howe is the obvious centerpiece. He'll pot his fare share of goals regardless, but more importantly his ability to get into the corners and dominate there in terms of puck possession and getting the puck to other players is legendary. 22 STRAIGHT seasons top 10 in assists including 3 first place finishes. He's the perfect RW for Stamkos, who's only real black mark on this resume is the multitude of injuries and lack of big postseason bullet points. Even with that he's a 90+ VsX type, multi time Rocket winner and supported extremely well by players who can do all the heavy lifting and get him the puck in prime scoring areas. When I see a line like this I'm glad I have the top 4 I do haha.

Really like that 2nd line as well. You have a big power forward who had a short peak but a strong one at that in Heatley. Lach should love having him to the left as a slanted playmaking C. Aurie is a nice glue guy, though certainly on the lowest end of scoring line forwards this year, it being mitigated by having 80+ players in Lach/Heatley. Just a well balanced line that coupled with the top one provides excellent scoring capabilities on the cumulative.

Love that 3rd line. Has a ton of grit, top flight pest abilities from Leswick. Pulford is a high end defensive winger, capable of moving around on the line if need be. Tkaczuk provides ok scoring depth at C but again, his bread and butter here will be of the defensive variety. Just a really good energy line capable of scoring a little bit and while making life difficult for opposing forwards.

I'd honestly get O'Reilly on that 4th line. He is a tremendous defensive player, proved to be clutch on that Smythe run 2 years ago. Very good in the dot. Plus with Kovy on the right wing, I'd want as much defensive acumen as possible here. RO isn't a black hole offensively either. Stasiuk is a really nice 4th liner here. He'll handle the depth/energy/checking role well. Kovy is not a typical bottom 6 forward but with ROR and Stasiuk I think he's a nice complimentary scoring player.

Power Play:


How can you not love the Howe, Stammer, Lach, and Heatley forward group on the top unit? There is play making, high end goal scoring. Power forwards capable of winning puck battles. If I had one small gripe, it's the notion Burns is the only Dman on the unit. It's a high risk/high reward move but one that is basically necessary due to having Horton/Chara/Pulford as your 3 most prominent Dmen who were all mainly defensive presences. But to be sure, it's an extremely potent unit overall. Just one that will be prone to counters more than others IMO.

2nd group seems ok. Hall and Chara is an acceptable 2nd pairing here.

Defensemen:

Great top pairing! Obviously it's not good offensively, but from a defending standpoint, few will be better. It's a lethal combo as well physically speaking. I think teams that can skate up and down the lineup may give it some tough moments but both are top 20-25 defensemen all time IMO.

Classic D-O for the 2nd unit. I like it though. Pulford was a big star pre 1910. Big time force for the Silver Seven. He'll defend well opposite Burns who I'm not the biggest fan of but think works here well in a #4 role, especially with the quality of the #3.

Solid 3rd pair.

Overall, while not explosive in moving the puck they'll do it at an acceptable level. Very strong defensively with the top 3 names. If they can mitigate turnovers getting out of the zone I think they'll be a solid overall group.

Penalty Kill:

Elite top unit. That simple. 2nd unit is above average.

Goaltenders:

Benedict is a rock solid goalie this year. He's got a strong trio in front of him defensively speaking and the forward group, especially if ROR plays, has a solid amount of defensive chops themselves. It's not a trap dynasty like he had for part of his career in Ottawa so I do think he'll see a bit more volume on the whole but he's a goalie that generally played very well in the big games. Fleury is an OK backup from a regular season standpoint. He can handle a workload so Benedict will benefit from a few extra nights off during a regular season. At this level though I wouldn't want MAF manning the nets for a playoff run.

Overall:

For a Tommy Ivan team you're missing that top pairing, Red Kelly catalyst type but he does have Howe and a few others he coached in real life. You have arguably the best top line in the draft. Solid 2nd scoring line as well. Good defensive chops in the bottom 6 mostly, especially w/ ROR. Great defensive players on the back end minus Burns. Solid goaltending. Very strong top special team units. This team will be a pain in the ass to play against and has a nice blend of scoring and defending.

Always like keeping an eye on the big 4 in these drafts. Great job as usual sir. Good luck to you!

 

[Dreakmur]

Re: The Madden thing.

There's two ways of looking at it. One - could he do it? Answer - probably. LW isn't a super complicated position to play. Some teams move Centers to Wing all the time with little to no ill effects (I couldn't even tell you who of Gourde Stamkos Cirelli and Point played C last game because Tampa puts two Cs per line and it works out just fine). Like in the real world, some Coach says "hey Madden - line up on Wing this game" do I think he would be an embarassment? Probably not. He'd probably be fine, and maybe even good.

But if you go down that road, why aren't we just drafting 80% Centers for all the forward spots? Center is by far the deeper position historically, and LW is generally weaker, so unless it's Bobby Hull or Alex Ovechkin, why aren't we just putting any ol' Left Shot Center on the wing? I think the spirit of the project is to look at how the players were actually used, and not say "eh I think they would be fine there" absent some historical support.

That’s exactly it. This is about drafting teams that honour the players. Dropping guys into positions they didn’t play does a disservice to the history of the draft.

I thought Giroux played more RW than he actually did. I wasn’t going to play him out of position, so I traded him to a team that wanted him in his correct position.

Could John madden play LW? Probably. I don’t care. It goes against the spirit of the draft. As far as I’m concerned - when I evaluate that line - he won’t play LW and you have two guys playing center and nobody on LW.

 

[Professor What]

That’s exactly it. This is about drafting teams that honour the players. Dropping guys into positions they didn’t play does a disservice to the history of the draft.

I thought Giroux played more RW than he actually did. I wasn’t going to play him out of position, so I traded him to a team that wanted him in his correct position.

Could John madden play LW? Probably. I don’t care. It goes against the spirit of the draft. As far as I’m concerned - when I evaluate that line - he won’t play LW and you have two guys playing center and nobody on LW.

There was a pretty extended discussion about Giroux, wasn't there? If I'm remembering that correctly, I have no problem with that, since I think it's perfectly okay to make a case for a player at a position. But I also think that the trade was a smart move because, unless a very compelling case is made, almost everyone will, and probably should, disagree with a player out of position. A strong case being made can help grow understanding of the player, but I don't think it should be an easy thing to do.

 

[Dreakmur]

There was a pretty extended discussion about Giroux, wasn't there? If I'm remembering that correctly, I have no problem with that, since I think it's perfectly okay to make a case for a player at a position. But I also think that the trade was a smart move because, unless a very compelling case is made, almost everyone will, and probably should, disagree with a player out of position. A strong case being made can help grow understanding of the player, but I don't think it should be an easy thing to do.

I thought Giroux played a full 4 seasons at RW before being moved to C. If that was true, I would have left him there, since that's like 1/3 of his career. Even if it wasn't his best time, he would have clearly demonstrated good success at that position.

That was, however, not the case. He started his transition much earlier than that. He had essentially no resume at RW, so I wasn't going to play him there.

Same goes for Marty Barry. I have a feeling he was a LW for longer than others, but I haven't been able to find evidence, so he's not a viable LW until I do.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I probably shouldn't wait until I get around do doing a bio on Toe Blake's coaching before posting my team here:

New Jersey Swamp Devils

Coach: Toe Blake

Sid Abel (A) - Jean Beliveau (C) - Bernie Geoffrion
Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Alexander Maltsev
Marty Pavelich - Anze Kopitar - Tony Amonte
Patrick Marleau - Phil Watson - Ed Westfall
Spares: Todd Bertuzzi, Jack Adams

*3rd and 4th lines swap wingers when playing against Bobby Hull

Serge Savard (A) - Pierre Pilote
Art Ross - Fern Flaman
Barry Beck - Si Griffis
spare: Nikolai Sologubov

Georges Vezina
Alec Connell

PP1: Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Alexander Maltsev - Bernie Geoffrion - Pierre Pilote
PP2: Patrick Marleau - Russell Bowie - Phil Watson - Art Ross - Si Griffis

PK1: Marty Pavelich* - Ed Westfall - Serge Savard - Fern Flaman
PK2: Anze Kopitar - Phil Watson - Barry Beck - Art Ross
PK spare: Alexander Maltsev - Patrick Marleau, Pierre Pilote

*See Pavelich's profile - he was shifted to C to shadow Jean Beliveau at one point. So he should be able to take faceoffs on penalties - in fact using an even strength winger at C on the PK is exactly something Toe Blake would do​

 

[Johnny Engine]

Who takes the last spot on the second power play when Sologubov is out of the lineup?

 

[overpass]

I probably shouldn't wait until I get around do doing a bio on Toe Blake's coaching before posting my team here:

New Jersey Swamp Devils

Coach: Toe Blake

Sid Abel (A) - Jean Beliveau (C) - Bernie Geoffrion
Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Alexander Maltsev
Marty Pavelich - Anze Kopitar - Tony Amonte
Patrick Marleau - Phil Watson - Ed Westfall
Spares: Todd Bertuzzi, Jack Adams

*3rd and 4th lines swap wingers when playing against Bobby Hull

Serge Savard (A) - Pierre Pilote
Art Ross - Fern Flaman
Barry Beck - Si Griffis
spare: Nikolai Sologubov

Georges Vezina
Alec Connell

PP1: Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Alexander Maltsev - Bernie Geoffrion - Pierre Pilote
PP2: Patrick Marleau - Russell Bowie - Phil Watson - Art Ross - Nikolai Sologubov

PK1: Marty Pavelich* - Ed Westfall - Serge Savard - Fern Flaman
PK2: Anze Kopitar - Phil Watson - Barry Beck - Art Ross
PK spare: Alexander Maltsev - Patrick Marleau, Pierre Pilote

*See Pavelich's profile - he was shifted to C to shadow Jean Beliveau at one point. So he should be able to take faceoffs on penalties - in fact using an even strength winger at C on the PK is exactly something Toe Blake would do​

Nice job with the Pilote bio. I said when you drafted him that I had a hard time imagining him compared to other defencemen in his range and the bio helped.

I watched a Hawks-Wings game from 1965 as well, keeping an eye out for Pilote. The biggest thing that struck me was that he was very aggressive to push the puck up his side whenever he had space, and he had excellent feel to push it as far as he could without getting caught. And then he was very good at using his advanced position to open up more aggressive passing lanes to the forwards, rather than just skating into dump-ins or dead ends.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Who takes the last spot on the second power play when Sologubov is out of the lineup?

Oops... I swapped Griffis and Sologubov at even strength mainly because I like Griffis' size in my division, but forgot to do it on the PP. Geez....

Fixed.