ATD 2021 Assassination Thread

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
19,255
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Orillia, Ontario
If you don't post your roster, yeah that's bad. It's not a death knell, but it's a sign of a bigger issue. Generally, GMs who don't post their roster also didn't research their picks. They likely didn't construct bios for their players. They likely didn't put forth convincing arguments in favour of their teams.

Just like most things in life, this draft takes work to do well. The more you put in, the more you get out.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Generally, GMs who don't post their roster also didn't research their picks. They likely didn't construct bios for their players.
I put a lot of effort into researching my pick annoucements, a full paragraph full of info plus at least one quote. It takes an hour or so of effort, usually more when I change my mind in the process.

Yet it seems GMs who just drop a name "Give me player x", are wiser because their picks get more attention in terms of commentary. I suspect many don't even read the pick announcement paragraphs I build. Oh well. They are fun to do.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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1,426
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
If you don't post your roster, yeah that's bad. It's not a death knell, but it's a sign of a bigger issue.
To speak metaphorically, Roster Posts in the Assassination Thread ~ Training Camp.
Detailed Roster Posts in the Assassination Thread ~ Really thorough Training Camp.
Assassinations performed in the Assassination Thread ~ Scouting.
One caveat to that- I suppose some dispensation is due rookies and other relative newcomers on the issue of performing Assassinations. Otherwise, I stand by my previous statement.
 
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Ben Grimm

🔥
Dec 10, 2007
25,327
6,415
ATL
Cleveland Spiders

View attachment 403463

coach; Joel Quenneville

Captain: Bobby Clarke
Alternates: Larry Robinson, Carl Brewer

Bill Barber-Bobby Clarke-Teemu Selanne

Ivan Johnson- Larry Robinson

Martin Brodeur
4844-1172790Fr.jpg


This is just a brief post on the starters, not an official assn. Joel Quennville won 3 cups and brings a tough no nonsense old school style of coaching that players such as Clarke and Robinson will feel comfortable with.

Clarke is a top 10 center and the best 2 way center in the post-O6 era. His real life LCB Line LW Barber's 420 goals are even better than Clarke's. The RW Teemu scored 76 goals as a rookie. Clarke brings leadership, the Flyers bring grit and toughness, and Teemu brings offense. I really like this line.

Larry Robinson is a top 10 dman whose 6 cups bring plenty of leadership. (trivia - the Habs won 7 cups in the Norris division) Hall of Famer Johnson won 2 cups, was a 4 time AS, and brings old school toughness. I really like this pairing.

Brodeur is a top 10 goalie who won 3 cups. I think your coach and starters are as solid as they come and have good leadership. Good luck.
 

Ben Grimm

🔥
Dec 10, 2007
25,327
6,415
ATL
If you don't post your roster, yeah that's bad. It's not a death knell, but it's a sign of a bigger issue. Generally, GMs who don't post their roster also didn't research their picks. They likely didn't construct bios for their players. They likely didn't put forth convincing arguments in favour of their teams. Just like most things in life, this draft takes work to do well. The more you put in, the more you get out.
I agree with the first sentence of the post. It only takes a minute to post your roster and if you expect feedback from other GMs in any thread you need to make a minimal effort.

The rest of my post is not directed at Dreak personally. A team of the best SIHR historians could spend decades planning, researching, and thinking about the ultimate ATD team. One of them could execute the plan perfectly, but if they didn't jump through the hoops and make the "necessary" posts GMs would make the assumptions Dreak made in his post and they would lose in the first round. It's a really peer pressured childish environment in here where GMs feel they have the right to tell others what to do in what is supposed a fun exercise. Since it's not based on active players only, there are no live stats to decide winners and losers. In a more mature setting this would be a mock draft only. Impossible? I run mock drafts that include former ATD GMs.
 
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Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
I agree with the first sentence of the post. It only takes a minute to post your roster and if you expect feedback from other GMs in any thread you need to make a minimal effort.

The rest of my post is not directed at Dreak personally. A team of the best SIHR historians could spend decades planning, researching, and thinking about the ultimate ATD team. One of them could execute the plan perfectly, but if they didn't jump through the hoops and make the "necessary" posts GMs would make the assumptions Dreak made in his post and they would lose in the first round. It's a really peer pressured childish environment in here where GMs feel they have the right to tell others what to do in what is supposed a fun exercise. Since it's not based on active players only, there are no live stats to decide winners and losers. In a more mature setting this would be a mock draft only. Impossible? I run mock drafts that include former ATD GMs.

I would just say there’s a difference between causation and correlation. GMs that are inactive during the playoffs tend to be the same ones who failed to do research and prepare arguments to support their players.

Drafting the best team isn’t all there is to it. If you don’t explain why your team works well then some people may not understand. If your opponent makes a good argument why his team will win, and you don’t make any argument, it shouldn’t be surprising if your team gets fewer votes.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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... If you don’t explain why your team works well then some people may not understand. If your opponent makes a good argument why his team will win, and you don’t make any argument, it shouldn’t be surprising if your team gets fewer votes.
Yes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

But voters aren't ignorant, are they?

A mediocre team built by a popular GM doesn't trump (pun intended) an elite core great team, does it?
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
19,255
7,682
Orillia, Ontario
Yes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

But voters aren't ignorant, are they?

A mediocre team built by a popular GM doesn't trump (pun intended) an elite core great team, does it?

Personally, I don't just vote for the team I think it the best. Match-ups matter. GMs who make compelling arguments can convince me why their team should win.

In a play-off series, the best team doesn't always win. Sometimes, the better team plays poorly, or the weaker teams plays extremely well. That's how I view the arguments. Good arguments mean your team played well. No argument means your team played poorly. Sometimes, the gap is so wide that it doesn't matter, but usually the matchups are close, so active GMs have an advantage from me.

I've told you before - focus on your current team. Start making arguments for your current team. Start doing research for your current team. Start making bios for your current team. Do that, and maybe you won't need to whine so much about your past teams.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Time grows short- and there is ONE un-reviewed team that posted a roster- that aggregation of Generation Jones and Gen-X taking the ice as our...
Florida Sunbursts

florida-sunburst-png.383044

coaching
Glen Sather

forwards
John LeClair • Eric Lindros (A) • Jaromir Jagr [legion of cool]
Luc Robitaille • Phil Esposito (C) • Ziggy Palffy [sub for Stumpel]
Esa Tikkanen • Bernie Nicholls • Steve Larmer [physical counter]
Don Marshall • Ralph Backstrom • Bengt Ake Gustafsson [speed counter]

defense
Doug Wilson • Paul Coffey (A)
Ulf Samuelsson • Larry Murphy
Mark Tinordi • Ted Green
Ed JovanovskiRobert Svehla

goalies
Roberto Luongo
John Vanbiesbrouck

spares
Brett Lindros

powerplay
  • Robitaille/Nicholls/Palffy with Coffey/Wilson
  • Esposito/Lindros/Jagr with Wilson/Murphy
  • LeClair/Esposito/Jagr with Coffey/Murphy
penalty kill
  • Samuelsson/Murphy and Tinordi/Green will be the main penalty killers
  • Gustafsson/Marshall and Tikkanen/Larmer will be the main penalty killing forwards
  • when a shorty is needed Nicholls and Palffy along with Wilson and Coffey can do their thing
If we take a chronological blanket and have as its outer edges the birth years 1957 (at one end) and 1979 (at the other), and throw it over this team, it would cover over 80% of them. They will bring a consistent vision of how Hockey's played, I suppose.

Coaching- was there going to be any other choice?!?
Leadership- Esposito got his leadership bona fides in the Summit Series, but (remarkably) only NHL-Captained during his twilight years with the Rangers. I love Lindros, feel as though he's undervalued, for the most part- but have some wilis about assigning him a letter in a 24-team league. Coffey with the other A. Let's just move on...

First Line: I love. Just need to stay healthy.
Second Line: there's gotta be a better way than Robitaille-Esposito.
Third Line: nice. Tikkanen might deserve a promotion, though.
Fourth Line: chemistry experiment that should go well.

First pairing: Wilson will have to modify his game around Coffey.
Second pairing: Should work.
Third pairing: can envision a mix-match situation with the remaining four, depending on ice-surface, rink size, and nature of opponent(s).

Goaltending- many (most?) would say Luongo is below-average in a 24 team league... but I think he'll be just fine in the Regular Season. When getting his spot-starts, Vanbiesbrouck figures to be stylistically familiar with what the Defense will be doing in front of him.

Special Teams- Sather will take the recommended Forwards list for Penalty Kill and donate it to CornHolio- and will put Ralph Backstrom there a lot- so that Florida will be prevented from routinely losing short-handed face-offs.

Would pay to watch this squad. Fun team... PLUS you ran a Training Camp, which is more than can be said for a few of the teams in your Division. That counts for something in MY book.

The Cathedrals and Megachurches of Florida will be saying prayers for the health of (ALL) of your Forwards. May the supplications be granted. Good luck.
 

tabness

be a playa 🇵🇸
Apr 4, 2014
3,017
5,406
Appreciate you taking the time and effort.

I got called out for not posting in this thread last draft so this year I posted it early. Now it is not for naught lol

second line

I like Robitaille with Espo, always planned to have him on his line even when I was figuring Espo with Jagr. It would have been very easy for me to just put Tikkanen with Espo for a more "conventional" Espo line (with the plus that Robitaille with Nicholls was obviously a nice pairing in 1988-1989), but I kept it as is because I believe in it.

I can speculate why some people do not like this line at all (perhaps just considering that there are two net front guys), but quite frankly, that is really underselling both players. Robitaille for example was noted for his work in the corners and could shoot from beyond the slot, and it is pretty obvious to me that Espo would not have staggering assist numbers if he could not carry and dish the puck.

In fact, the second line is supposed to be a souped up version of the brief Kings line around the turn of the millennium with Espo subbing for Stumpel. I consider it close enough to be stylistically similar, with the added bonus that Stumpel just did not shoot enough, whereas Esposito won't have that issue. Gives Palffy and even Robitaille more options for their playmaking as well. Not to mention that I'd assume Coffey and Wilson spend a lot of time with these guys.

The line is slow for sure, but hey, Espo thrived in the slower paced seventies and the Kings line thrived in the slower paced dead puck era. There are also the defensemen and other lines that are quick for those matchups, and these guys can be more tactically deployed behind the Lindros line that would just be a killer at even strength or the bottom two which were built for a variegated set of even strength matchups.

penalty kill forwards

For the penalty kill, Gustafsson was a natural center so no issues taking draws.

Tikkanen could play all forward positions and took faceoffs as well (I mean he actually played with Larmer on the penalty kill a bit when they were both in New York).

I was thinking that Backstrom's game and skillset easily suits itself to penalty killing, but @TheDevilMadeMe pointed out that he rarely killed penalties (and Marshall took draws shorthanded as well). That may have been Toe Blake's decision, and perhaps Sather would want to use him differently though (I still don't get drafting coaches and then setting lines/tactics).

leadership

I don't consider it super important who gets the letters. Leaders are going to be leaders regardless. I just wanted to get letters on the players who would see the most ice time. Gave Espo the "C" cause he's like the oldest member of the core and he has to take a slightly lesser role behind Lindros.

Would have actually given Coffey the "C" otherwise, basically everything I've read about Coffey from his teammates suggests he was a great leader and mentor. I get there's a stigma against him, not on my part though. Last draft in those summary things pretty much everyone and their mama put him for the worst pick of the first round - well I thought he was the best.

goalies

I'm pretty adamant in my view that goalies really don't matter that much after a certain point. Like maybe Hasek would be a differentiator, but beyond that? I'm not even with the general view of gaps between skaters' abilities that some here have, it is much more important to get fit and style right for the team.

Luongo I really like as the guy had to play in various different team situations (mostly not great), and despite that, carved out an incredibly long career as one of the top goalies, including in the current period where many would say goaltending technique has really reached its zenith far more than you can say of other aspects of the game. Vanbiesbrouck was taken obviously cause of the Florida aesthetic, but also because the guy dealt with platooning/sort of being a backup, and not just at the sunset of his career.

spares

Aside from the sentimental family connection, Brett Lindros was drafted as a paradigmatic testament to the way size and strength dominated hockey and scouting for a good period (reaching somewhat ridiculous levels in the mid to late nineties lol) :sarcasm:

Although the last spare would have been Kjell Samuelsson if not for Lindros. Wilson seemed to be hurt just as much as Eric, Tinordi tragically more so, Samuelsson and Coffey and Green played hurt a lot too. Harder to make up for a defenseman than a forward in these things, much like in reality.

For the forwards, so many players having to play less than they used to. I already took guys like Nicholls and Backstrom who generally played a level down of where they should have for this very reason. So should Eric and a couple other forwards hurt, ain't no thing, the other guys were used to playing more anyway, just roll three lines with them.

Oh, Tinordi came into the league as a winger too so no biggie lol
 

GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
608
474
The PK usage charts don't even include any of those guys.

NHL tracked ice time for most of Bondra's career. He did kill penalties, but he was only once one one his his team's top-4 pk forwards.

He still somehow managed to lead the league in shorthanded goals from 92-04
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,600
4,110
Ottawa, ON
He still somehow managed to lead the league in shorthanded goals from 92-04

Yeah, Bondra was a special case as a penalty killer. He didn't get that much ice time, but he still scored a ton of shorthanded goals.

Ice time was tracked from 97-98 on, so we know how much time he was actually out there shorthanded. From 97-98 through 02-03, Bondra was out there for 24% of Washington's SH icetime and 22% of their power play goals against. He also scored 1.34 goals/60 minutes while shorthanded, which would be a very good rate at even strength, let alone shorthanded.

PlayerGPPPGASH% (PPGA estimate)SHTOI/GSH% (actual time)PPGA/60SHGSHPSH Faceoffs
Peter Bondra4396622%1:5024%4.9218219
Adam Oates3708939%2:2232%6.102111137
Steve Konowalchuk3946927%1:5325%5.5812123
Andrei Nikolishin3485323%2:0227%4.4937740
Jeff Halpern2895927%2:0227%6.0278669
Joe Sacco2133827%1:5827%5.44023
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So was Bondra just Washington's best penalty killing forward? After all, he had one of the lowest goals against rates, and he scored a ton of goals while killing these penalties. But I think it's a little more complicated than that.

I would consider first unit penalty killers to be almost a different job description from second and third unit penalty killers. The first unit always begins play with a faceoff, so you need a strong faceoff man out there. And the first unit is usually playing against the first PP unit of the other team, which is often stacked with their best players and is significantly more of a threat to score than their second PP unit. First unit PKers have to spend more time playing against an opponent who has control. This is hard work, constantly starting and stopping and changing directions to close any gaps, and it requires a high defensive IQ. On the other hand, the second and third unit usually come on the ice on the fly. They have the opportunity to prevent the opponent from gaining the blueline, and they'll tend to play more in open ice. And the second PP units they are often facing are less skilled and less likely to have full control of the puck. So this is where you play your shorthanded scoring threats. They don't have to do as much of the hard work in their own zone, and they can take more chances, force turnovers, and be a threat to score.

If you look at the table above, I would say Adam Oates, a strong faceoff man, was probably going out for the start of the kill more often against opposing first units. Which is why he had a higher goals against number. He had the more difficult job. And Bondra was almost certainly not out there at the start. He would get on the ice later in the power play, and he appears to have been very good at forcing turnovers against second units or tired first units and taking the puck the other way to score. Maybe he was Washington's most valuable penalty killer in his role, but that doesn't mean he could do the same thing that Adam Oates did.

And then there's one more thing to consider with Bondra. While he could spam shorthanded goals in the regular season, he played 80 playoff games in his career and did not score a single shorthanded goal. That includes 61 SH minutes from 1997-98 on when we have ice time. It seems that whatever he did to force turnovers and score in the regular season didn't work so well against an opponent that was prepared for it.
 

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