ATD 2021 Assassination Thread

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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I'd be interested in seeing what people thought of Makarov and Kharlamov in terms of relative VsX. I consider them way up in the 90's.

Martinec showed very well against the Soviets more often than not based on everything I've seen posted by our Euro brethren here and the HoH section. His international numbers are sterling.

I mean how far would we be willing to put him below a Recchi? (88) Hossa (82) or Cecil Dillon (78)? You said 85-90 is overly generous so I assume you don't think he's even an 80+ player?

I'd put him a lot lower than Recchi, for sure.

His international scoring rates are fantastic, on par or better than all but a handful of players from the era. And again, he didn't have the benefit of an absolutely loaded roster year in and year out.

7th all-time leading scorer in World Championships, with 110 points (52 goals and 58 assists) in 102 games, 1st among Czech players

Here's how Vladimir Martinec's 1.12 assists per goal ratio at the WC's compares to some of the other stars of his generation…

Alexander Maltsev: 1.16 (89A:77G)
Valeri Kharlamov: 1.15 (85A:74G)
Vladimir Martinec: 1.12 (58A:52G)
Vladimir Petrov: 1.08 (80A:74G)
Boris Mikhailov: 0.72 (71A:98G)

Martinec made the WC AS roster as a RW over Mikhailov 4 years in a row (74-77). A significant bullet point.

Those world championships were made up of non-NHL talent. Sure, some guys could have come to the NHL, but most couldn't.

Point Scoring Vs2:
Domestic - 107, 100, 100, 98, 85, 78, 78, 78, 78, 70, 69, 66, 56, 52

That Czech league wasn't close to NHL level. It isn't even as good as the pre-expansion AHL. I'm not sure how much value you think we should put into those numbers.

You would have to get a couple other people to convince me he's not at least a relative low to mid 80's on a traditional VsX scale. 90 might be too high a ceiling certainly. But I'd be hard pressed to drop him below an 80 valuation.

How high do you think Fred Glover or Willie Marhsall should be?

The guy played in the third best league in the world, and he only led scoring once. That's not an impressive offensive resume.

Was he a better scorer than Novy? Nedomansky? Hlinka?

I disagree with your assessment of comparing Orr to other Dmen exclusively. That's not how hockey works, comparing forwards to forwards/D to D. Though in the end the offensive totals are still going to come out how they come out here.

That's not how hockey works today. It wasn't always that way, which is why I think it's unfair to compare defensemen to forwards prior to expansion.

Glenn Anderson is absolutely not a shutdown player defensively (didn't say he was FTR), but he is a plus IMO. He'll put the effort in to stick with a guy all game and put a wicked body on them repeatedly at the very least.

Ok, a few more quotes than I found, but that's still pretty weak praise. It's essentially saying he's not bad. But I'll give you that, he's not bad.
Martinec (as shown above) reads like a plus defensively. Clearly not saying Selke/great but above average? Yes. His PK'ing is easily ATD unit good if you read everything Batis and company fleshed out. High end wheels.

Above average, sure.

Anderson is solid. Elite wheels.

Above average.

Guerin's average.

Wasn't he average during his career?
 

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I'd put him a lot lower than Recchi, for sure.



Those world championships were made up of non-NHL talent. Sure, some guys could have come to the NHL, but most couldn't.



That Czech league wasn't close to NHL level. It isn't even as good as the pre-expansion AHL. I'm not sure how much value you think we should put into those numbers.



How high do you think Fred Glover or Willie Marhsall should be?

The guy played in the third best league in the world, and he only led scoring once. That's not an impressive offensive resume.

Was he a better scorer than Novy? Nedomansky? Hlinka?



That's not how hockey works today. It wasn't always that way, which is why I think it's unfair to compare defensemen to forwards prior to expansion.



Ok, a few more quotes than I found, but that's still pretty weak praise. It's essentially saying he's not bad. But I'll give you that, he's not bad.


Above average, sure.



Above average.



Wasn't he average during his career?



I look at international tournament numbers before all else for pre NHL Euro's. Maybe others don't. And that's fine. The discussion is a good one!

How did guys fare against the best? Domestic leagues were shallow in depth of talent, even in the USSR, certainly into at least the early 70's. You wouldn't have been able to patch together 5, 6 rosters worth of NHL caliber talent during this time period. Top end talent? Sure. They could compete with the Canadiens, but I don't think looking at those leagues they had the depth of the NHL.

Knocking competition for Martinec doesn't help the Soviets of the era either, especially considering they had the best rosters by a wide margin and generally consolidated all the top players on what, 2 teams? Disparity in who these guys were skating with as linemates is significant as well. All those Soviets were beating up on the same non NHL Euro's, most of whom weren't good enough to make the NHL as you put it.

I mean according to your view, Maltsev must be about a 100 relative VsX considering he led the Soviet league, what 5, 6 times?

Martinec then being a 70 something. Worse? Is there really that kind of gap between 2 players ranked in almost identical fashion all time?

If I thought, or any person though Martinec wasn't even an 80 for instance, drafting him where he is drafted every year wouldn't make much sense given offense is his primary calling card.

But if you're going to Fred Glover and Willie Marshall (how many sub drafts would we need to get these guys) then I'd wager even a 70 something grade would be high for you and again, I don't know why anyone would draft Martinec if that's how voters view him offensively speaking. I mean it just seems absurd to consider him that low. There's no point in him even being a scoring line player if we're going to settle on that. I would never consider him again. Not inside the top 150 or possibly even 200 at least.

I'd love to hear from a couple of other people. I might have been out of my mind all these years haha.

.......

We're not really arguing against each other as it pertains to Orr. Like I said, we can do the F vs F and get a total and then do D vs D. It's all going to add up the same way at the end of the day.

......

I don't know how you go from being labeled solid to "not bad" haha. I think there is some more grey area in there.

Basically I grade as follows:

Elite: Nobody
Good to Great - Lemaire, Crawford, Cook, Poulin, Metz
Average to Above average (solid) - Anderson, Martinec, Bucyk, Goyette,
Average to Below average - Hawerchuk, Malone, Guerin, Cournoyer
Bad/Very bad - Tanguay
Worthless: Nobody

Again, not a world class collection of defensive talents but a nice mix, void of anyone I'd label a glaring weakness outside Tanguay, or maybe Cournoyer though I don't see the evidence on the latter being that bad outside the very early stages of his career.

Roster mostly full of guys who will be average or better defensively IMO, w/an obvious uptick in scoring in the depth roles relative to other squads (typical 3rd/4th liners) which was a point after going D heavy early.
 

Dreakmur

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I look at international tournament numbers before all else for pre NHL Euro's. Maybe others don't. And that's fine. The discussion is a good one!

How did guys fare against the best? Domestic leagues were shallow in depth of talent, even in the USSR, certainly into at least the early 70's. You wouldn't have been able to patch together 5, 6 rosters worth of NHL caliber talent during this time period. Top end talent? Sure. They could compete with the Canadiens, but I don't think looking at those leagues they had the depth of the NHL.

How did Martinec do against the best? I don't think he ever even played against the best.

I mean according to your view, Maltsev must be about a 100 relative VsX considering he led the Soviet league, what 5, 6 times?

I had Maltsev a few years back, and I think I had him as an 85.

Martinec then being a 70 something. Worse? Is there really that kind of gap between 2 players ranked in almost identical fashion all time?

Depends how much better you think Maltsev's competition was.

If I thought, or any person though Martinec wasn't even an 80 for instance, drafting him where he is drafted every year wouldn't make much sense given offense is his primary calling card.

Guys move up and down the draft as we learn more.

But if you're going to Fred Glover and Willie Marshall (how many sub drafts would we need to get these guys) then I'd wager even a 70 something grade would be high for you and again, I don't know why anyone would draft Martinec if that's how voters view him offensively speaking. I mean it just seems absurd to consider him that low. There's no point in him even being a scoring line player if we're going to settle on that. I would never consider him again. Not inside the top 150 or possibly even 200 at least.

Yes, those guys shouldn't be drafted. They dominated a lesser league, just like Martinec did.

Martinec's 7 season vs.X in the Czech league was 92.3. You really think that league was so close to the NHL that his offense should only be adjusted by a few percentage points?

I don't know how you go from being labeled solid to "not bad" haha. I think there is some more grey area in there.

When I read those quotes, they sound like they're describing a player who was responsible, but not great.
 

Dreakmur

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Philadelphia Phantoms: Founder- ted2019, GM- ChiTownPhilly

Thank you for jumping in to take over this team!

Coach: Tommy Gorman

Gorman is one of the many coaches who I would consider to be in the 3rd tier, who coaches a pretty specific style of team. I think his best attribute as a coach is his ability to devise an effective forecheck, so I think he needs players who can execute that tactic to make him fully effective. I think your roster compliments him pretty well.

#10 Cy Denneny - #6 Frank Nighbor - #7 Hooley Smith

Nighbor is one of the absolute elite defensive centres. He's not a great offensive player, but he's decent enough to be the 3rd wheel on a 1st line. He and Denneny have proven chemistry, and Denneny is a good scoring wringer who brings a lot of what Nighbor lacks.

I'm not sure Hooley Smith brings enough offense to make this line an effective scoring unit. He's an excellent checker who would excel as a glue-guy. I'm also not how much he played on RW.

This line should be pretty plucky and tough to play against. They should be very good defensively. I'm not sure they can score.

#40 Henrik Zetterberg (A) - #26 Milan Nový - #20 Vaclav Nedomanský

Novy and Nedomansky are tough to evaluate. Both guys scored really well in weaker leagues, and wihile they both showed they were NHL calibre players, neither scored at a very high level.

Zetterberg was an excellent all-around player, and was a lot more physical than a lot of fans thought. Much like Smith on the top line, Zetterberg is an excellent glue-guy.

#11 John Madden - #37 Patrice Bergeron (A) - #32 Claude Lemieux

Patrice Bergeron gives this team two of my top-3 defensive centres of all time. He's not a great ES scorer, but I think his two-way play has helped change the view around the NHL of what a truly elite player is.

Claude Lemieux, in a draft this size, is probably more of a 4th line agitator than a 3rd line checker. John Madden is a 4th line centre, playing out of position, so he's way over his head here.

#22 Daniel Sedin - #33 Henrik Sedin - #27 Odie Cleghorn

The Sedins will form the most dangerous duo on any 4th line in this draft. I'm not sure this shouldn't be the core of your second line. I think they're both better than Novy and Nedomansky respectively. Cleghron compliments them nicely.

This 4th line brings some offensive punch that's lacking higher up in the line-up, so it was a good strategy to make a 4th line like this.

#5 Denis Potvin (C) - #16 Shea Weber

This is a scary pairing. Big, mean, good defensively. Weber is a solid puck-mover, and Potvin is a really strong offensive defenseman. If not for the ridiculous Orr-Stevens pair, this pair would be in the conversation for best in the draft.

Potvin is going to be relied upon to create a lot of offense.

#4 Alexander Ragulin - #17 Jan Suchy

Good mix here. Ragulin is a big, stay-at-home crease-clearer, and he actually makes a good first pass too. Suchy is a lot tougher to gauge, since his peak was so short. He'll join the rush a lot, which is needed on this roster.

Think they'll have chemistry to maximize each other, but I think the talent is lacking compared to a lot of other second pairs.

#46 Mark Giordano- #2 Terry Harper

I really like this pair. Harper is like Ragulin. Giordano is a pretty well-rounded heart-and-soul kind of guy.

#1 Bernie Parent
#31 Vladimír Dzurilla

Average starter with clutch ability.

Don't like the back-up.

PK-1: Madden-Bergeron-Giordano-Weber
PK1a: Nighbor-H. Smith-Potvin-Harper
Spare PKers: Zetterberg, Suchý, Ragulin

The way you built your team, it's no surprised you've got a really good PK. The forwards, are likely the best in the draft.

I think Ragulin should be in there somewhere. I think he's better than Giordano.

PP1: Denneny (Net Front)- Nighbor (Facilitator/Office Manager)- H. Smith (Half-Wall)
Suchý (QB)- Potvin (Trigger)

PP2: C. Lemieux (L Net-Front to Corners)- H. Sedin (Top of Circle to Slot)- D. Sedin (R Net-Front to Top of Circle) >> Weber (L Point)- Nový (R Point)
Spare PPers: Zetterberg, Nedomanský, O. Cleghorn, Giordano

Likewise, no surprise these units are weaker. I'm not sure the Sedins with Denneny isn't your best bet for top unit.
 
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Theokritos

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How did Martinec do against the best? I don't think he ever even played against the best.

3 assists in 3 games against Team Canada in Canada Cup 76. Czechoslovakia played Team Canada tight in two games out of three in that tournament (one close win Czechoslovakia, one close win Canada, one blowout for Canada). Martinec also had 4 points in 4 games against NHL clubs (Flyers, North Stars, Red Wings, Islanders) when his club Pardubice toured the NHL in 1977-78.

Without going into the argument on where to put Vladimír Martinec in a VsX fudge: I don't quite get the sentiment that the best Czechoslovak players of the 1970s should be treated as something like unproven commodities. We know how good the Soviets were and we know that the Czechoslovaks were the next in line. Martinec, in particular, was known to give the Soviets trouble. Sure the World Championship had plenty of players on the weaker teams that weren't on NHL level. But those weren't the ones Martinec was competing with for All-star berths. It were the likes of Boris Mikhailov and Alexander Maltsev that he beat out for the All-star berths. Rod Gilbert too in 1977. The last name should remind us that Canada actually did send NHL players to the World Championship from 1977 on. With those players, Canada went 1-4-1 in six games against Czechoslovakia during the last years of Martinec's prime.
 

Dreakmur

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3 assists in 3 games against Team Canada in Canada Cup 76. Czechoslovakia played Team Canada tight in two games out of three in that tournament (one close win Czechoslovakia, one close win Canada, one blowout for Canada). Martinec also had 4 points in 4 games against NHL clubs (Flyers, North Stars, Red Wings, Islanders) when his club Pardubice toured the NHL in 1977-78.

Good to know. Thanks for the info.

Without going into the argument on where to put Vladimír Martinec in a VsX fudge: I don't quite get the sentiment that the best Czechoslovak players of the 1970s should be treated as something like unproven commodities. We know how good the Soviets were and we know that the Czechoslovaks were the next in line. Martinec, in particular, was known to give the Soviets trouble. Sure the World Championship had plenty of players on the weaker teams that weren't on NHL level. But those weren't the ones Martinec was competing with for All-star berths. It were the likes of Boris Mikhailov and Alexander Maltsev that he beat out for the All-star berths. Rod Gilbert too in 1977. The last name should remind us that Canada actually did send NHL players to the World Championship from 1977 on. With those players, Canada went 1-4-1 in six games against Czechoslovakia during the last years of Martinec's prime.

It's not just about being unproven. It's about gauging where a player ranked world-wide. That's tough to do for guys who played in lesser leagues.
 

Leaf Lander

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Coach: Mike Babcock
(C) Trottier (A)Armstrong
(A) Sittler (A) MacInnis

Delvecchio -Trottier-Kurri
Shutt - Sittler- Armstrong
Propp-Draisaitl -Vaive
Klukay-Kasper- Nevin
Sloan- Risebrough

Suter- MacInnis
Tremblay-Howell
Thomson -Mortson
Stanowski



Smith
Quick

Specialty Teams

PP Unit 1
Delvecchio -Trottier-Kurri
Suter MacInnis


PP Unit 2
Draisaitl -Sittler-Vaive
Tremblay-Howell

PK Unit 1
Propp -Kasper
Thomson -Mortson

PK Unit 2
Klukay -Armstrong
Suter MacInnis
 
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3 assists in 3 games against Team Canada in Canada Cup 76. Czechoslovakia played Team Canada tight in two games out of three in that tournament (one close win Czechoslovakia, one close win Canada, one blowout for Canada). Martinec also had 4 points in 4 games against NHL clubs (Flyers, North Stars, Red Wings, Islanders) when his club Pardubice toured the NHL in 1977-78.

Without going into the argument on where to put Vladimír Martinec in a VsX fudge: I don't quite get the sentiment that the best Czechoslovak players of the 1970s should be treated as something like unproven commodities. We know how good the Soviets were and we know that the Czechoslovaks were the next in line. Martinec, in particular, was known to give the Soviets trouble. Sure the World Championship had plenty of players on the weaker teams that weren't on NHL level. But those weren't the ones Martinec was competing with for All-star berths. It were the likes of Boris Mikhailov and Alexander Maltsev that he beat out for the All-star berths. Rod Gilbert too in 1977. The last name should remind us that Canada actually did send NHL players to the World Championship from 1977 on. With those players, Canada went 1-4-1 in six games against Czechoslovakia during the last years of Martinec's prime.

Thanks for the specific info Theo!

Those threads outlining his performances against the Soviets and North Americans were a big selling point for me last year. I posted them yesterday but it's not out of this realm to think they might have gotten lost in my long winded novel haha.

Czechoslovak Players against the USSR

Czechoslovak Players against Canada, NHL, WHA

Not to mention the more detailed descriptions of his game beyond offense are why I'm firmly in the camp he's superior to Maltsev for example, especially in an ATD setting IMO. Now obviously there isn't really a gap in an all time sense, I'm just thoroughly impressed at Martinec's ability to continually post strong numbers against the best in Europe and North America when presented with those challenges.

upload_2021-3-7_23-55-33.png


Those 4 straight AS nods over Mikhailov should not be underappreciated, with gold in 76 and 77 in the WC and as you can see above/below he was rather dominant. Best RW in Europe for 4-6 years? I'd rather someone more educated than me answer that but 72-77 seem like a very dominant stretch of hockey.

4 Golden sticks is 3rd all time (Hasek/Jagr) in Czech history.

Another nuance is how consistent he was as a scorer on the world stage and obviously the career numbers are stellar.

upload_2021-3-7_23-44-49.png
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Lionel Hitchman - Jack Stewart
Lionel Conacher - Red Horner
Jim Neilson - Red Dutton
Sandis Ozolinsh
PP1: Krutov, Cowley, Morenz - Ozolinsh, Hull
Before any of us start analyzing this team, I think we need to know which of the twelve listed starting Forwards sits, in order to make room for this arrangement.
 

Dreakmur

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Took 10 minutes to rip through the 7 season vs.x scores for every team's first lines. I was surprised at how packed so many teams are in the middle. 16 teams were within 10 points of 273. Only 4 teams below that, and only 4 teams above.

326.8 - Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky - Charlie Conacher
302.0 - Toe Blake - Steven Stamkos - Gordie Howe
298.8 - Doug Bentley - Mario Lemieux - Martin St. Louis
294.2 - Ted Lindsey - Ron Francis - Maurice Richard
-----
282.9 - Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Bernie Geoffrion
280.9 - John Leclair - Eric Lindros - Jaromir Jagr
277.7 - News Stewart - Sidney Crosby - Boris Mikhailov
275.3 - Bobby Hull - Milt Schmidt - Blake Wheeler
273.1 - Valeri Kharlamov - Doug Gilmour - Andy Bathgate
272.8 - Aurel Joliat - Howie Morenz - Brett Hull
272.4 - AVERAGE
271.8 - Busher Jackson - Cyclone Taylor - Daniel Alfredsson
269.3 - Alex Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall
268.0 - Anatoli Firsov - Mark Messier - Mark Recchi
267.4 - Frank Mahovlich Jean Ratelle - Sergei Makarov
266.7 - Paul Kariya - Frank Boucher - Jarome Iginla
266.7 - Alex Delvecchio - Bryan Trottier - Jari Kurri
265.7 - Dickie Moore - Denis Savard - Mike Bossy
265.3 - Patrik Elias - Max Bentley - Bill Cook
263.7 - Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone - Vladimir Martinec
263.3 - Ilya Kovalchuk - Stan Mikita - Joe Mullen
-----
253.1 - Bill Barber - Bobby Clarke - Teemu Selanne
253.0 - Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Hooley Smith
246.8 - Brendan Shanahan - Evgeni Malkin - Rick Middleton
232.1 - Bert Olmstead - Steve Yzerman - Cam Neely


This takes nothing into account aside from scores. Line makeup, chemistry, balance, etc are not considered. I also did this quickly, so none of my normal adjustments were made (Milt Schmidt war years, Bill Cook pre-NHL years, Charlie Conacher's seasons at defense, etc), so some might be a little lower than I would otherwise have them. Just wanted to run the numbers fast to see if my gut was right about a lot of these lines.
 
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Professor What

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Took 10 minutes to rip through the 7 season vs.x scores for every team's first lines. I was surprised at how packed so many teams are in the middle. 16 teams were within 10 points of 273. Only 3 teams below that, and only 4 teams above.

326.8 - Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky - Charlie Conacher
302.0 - Toe Blake - Steven Stamkos - Gordie Howe
298.8 - Doug Bentley - Mario Lemieux - Martin St. Louis
294.2 - Ted Lindsey - Ron Francis - Maurice Richard
-----
282.9 - Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Bernie Geoffrion
280.9 - John Leclair - Eric Lindros - Jaromir Jagr
277.7 - News Stewart - Sidney Crosby - Boris Mikhailov
275.3 - Bobby Hull - Milt Schmidt - Blake Wheeler
273.1 - Valeri Kharlamov - Doug Gilmour - Andy Bathgate
272.8 - Aurel Joliat - Howie Morenz - Brett Hull
271.8 - Busher Jackson - Cyclone Taylor - Daniel Alfredsson
269.3 - Alex Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall
268.0 - Anatoli Firsov - Mark Messier - Mark Recchi
267.4 - Frank Mahovlich Jean Ratelle - Sergei Makarov
266.7 - Paul Kariya - Frank Boucher - Jarome Iginla
266.7 - Alex Delvecchio - Bryan Trottier - Jari Kurri
265.7 - Dickie Moore - Denis Savard - Mike Bossy
265.3 - Patrik Elias - Max Bentley - Bill Cook
263.7 - Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone - Vladimir Martinec
263.3 - Ilya Kovalchuk - Stan Mikita - Joe Mullen
-----
253.1 - Bill Barber - Bobby Clarke - Teemu Selanne
253.0 - Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Hooley Smith
232.1 - Bert Olmstead - Steve Yzerman - Cam Neely


This takes nothing into account aside from scores. Line makeup, chemistry, balance, etc are not considered. I also did this quickly, so none of my normal adjustments were made (Milt Schmidt war years, Bill Cook pre-NHL years, Charlie Conacher's seasons at defense, etc), so some might be a little lower than I would otherwise have them. Just wanted to run the numbers fast to see if my gut was right about a lot of these lines.

Hey! Best line without one of the big three forwards by this metric! At least I did one thing right. Lol
 

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Cleveland Spiders

View attachment 403463

coach; Joel Quenneville

Captain: Bobby Clarke
Alternates: Larry Robinson, Carl Brewer

Bill Barber-Bobby Clarke-Teemu Selanne
Syd Howe-Mike Modano-Gordie Drillon
Mats Naslund-Joe Primeau-Jimmy Ward
Dave Balon-Fleming Mackell-Owen Nolan

Extra: Charlie Simmer, Brad Richards

Ivan Johnson- Larry Robinson
Carl Brewer-Babe Pratt
Art Duncan-Lloyd Cook

Extra: Lars Erik Sjoberg

Martin Brodeur
Gerry Cheevers

Special Teams:

PP 1: Syd Howe, Mike Modano,Teemu Selanne, Babe Pratt, Bill Barber
PP 2: Mats Naslund, Bobby Clarke, Gordie Drillon, Larry Robinson, Carl Brewer

PK 1: Bobby Clarke, Jimmy Ward, Larry Robinson, Ivan Johnson
PK 2: Dave Balon, Fleming Mackell, Carl Brewer, Art Duncan


Thank you once again for your continued efforts Tony! You have a fantastic roster up there bud. Looking forward to seeing how you do.

Coaching:

Quenneville is a top 10 lock all time, ranking as high as 5th possibly IMO. Has the longevity, the great peak w/Chicago.

He should like the majority of the roster I think. While there are a few forwards subpar defensively (Selanne/Drillon/and Primeau IIRC) you did a nice job protecting them with elite (Clarke) or just plain good/solid 200 foot players (Modano/Howe/Ward) IMO. Patrick Kane isn't exactly a world beater defensively and he flourished under Q. I think he'll especially love the blue line you put together.

Leadership:

Clarke is fantastic here. Need to go through a brick wall while getting your teammates to follow? Clarke's your man. You have nice complimentary alternates with Robinson/Brewer. Howe was a captain with multiple teams during his day.

Forwards:

Solid top line Tony. You have the physicality and chemistry at C/LW. You have a really nice passer/shooter combo with Clarke and Selanne. Clarke is elite defensively and Barber solid which is nice as it allows the 2 best offensive players to get more aggressive in the O zone. Should make things happen on the cycle w/strong puck possession traits. Not the most potent top offensive line, namely because of Barber, but it's a line that just works and it'll be hard to push them around.

Strong 2nd line. All 80+ VsX types so it should come in at the very least average across the ATD board as a 2nd scoring unit, though I'd guess it ranks a little higher than that. Like the top line, it features 2 players with solid defensive acumen which helps insulate Drillon's weakness there. You'd like to see maybe a bit more playmaking from the C position w/ the wingers flanking Modano, but he and Howe were pretty evenly split between goal scoring and playmaking so I don't think it a glaring issue by any stretch. Drillon is a nice goal scorer for a 2nd liner. Not a lot of physicality on the whole but again, I don't think it's a paper soft group. Might struggle a little against uber physical players over the course of a series but again, I think it's an overall good 2nd line.

Bottom 6 has a mix of depth scoring, defensive players, physicality. It will be interesting to see how these lines match up head to head w/other teams. I'd imagine the Clarke line will see a lot of time against other top C's. I think against really explosive teams the bottom 6 can be taken advantage of but the flip side is your have an excellent blue line to mitigate some of that worry.

Power Play:

Normally I'd say try and get Drillon on the the top unit but with Clarke playing on the 2nd team, they make for a nice combo. That and you'd lose either Modano/Howe on the 1st unit leaving it very light on playmaking. Maybe get Owen Nolan on the 2nd unit and park him near the net. It's not a potent top PP by any means, partly because Clarke is playing on the top PK unit so you lose that premium play making. Barber and Pratt are just ok IMO.

I'd get Duncan on the 2nd PP unit with Robinson. If you are wary of putting a F on the point on the 1st unit you could even give him looks up there. Brewer should be a PK guy exclusively here. So you do have more of a 2 unit look as Clarke/Drillon/Robinson/Duncan would be fantastic for a 2nd group.

Defensemen:

Swap Duncan and Cook. Duncan was a righty so he should probably be on the right side.

Very good top pair especially defensively. It won't knock your socks off moving forward but it's a big, nasty duo capable of really putting the clamps down on some folks. Really strong skaters can possibly give them fits but overall Robinson is a good #1 this year and Johnson an above average #2.

Brewer-Pratt is a classic D-O combo. Again, this pair is certainly above average as Brewer is a pretty easy #3 and Pratt a cool #4, if not a low end 3. Physical, can skate. Brewer will spend more time than most in the box. Overall, this is yet another good duo.

Cook/Duncan is a fantastic bottom pair. One of the better in the draft. Obvious chemistry, nice defending, puck moving capabilities. This is a unit that can play more than the traditional 5/6 minutes IMO which can help keep the players above them fresher.

Penalty Kill:

Strong top unit. Clarke/Ward should do a great job being aggressive on the point men. Obvious combined threat going the other way thanks to Clarke especially. Johnson/Robinson is a great duo on the back end. Very physical pair, it'll be hard to maintain position close to the net.

2nd unit seems just average. I like Mackell there but not sure Balon was good enough to kill in a draft this size. I may be wrong though. I'd lean towards putting Nolan there with Mackell to be honest. Brewer is a nice 2nd unit player, though as I mentioned he'll probably be in the box a few times per series.

Goalies:

Brodeur is my #4 all time. He's the post expansion Glenn Hall, just better in the playoffs. Fantastic puck mover, a trait that always gets overlooked. Can handle a crazy workload. I've always been amazed at how many 70+ start seasons he had to his name and the Devils were usually making fairly deep playoff runs. Cheevers is a nice #2 though he'll barely see the ice.

Overall:

Top 5 G all time. Top 10 D all time. Top 10 C all time. That's a nice peak player at each level. Tony this is a really strong entry. Great top paring, with good depth on the 2nd and 3rd units. Clarke gives you one of the greatest defensive F's all time. Below average 1st line in terms of scoring but a strong 2nd line right behind it along with some decent bottom 6 players capable of making an impact offensively. How well can the forwards hold up defending? If you had a weaker blue line or low end goalie, I'd worry more than I do with this particular roster. It's not going to blow the doors off the viewing audience (more visually pleasing rosters) but it's one I like quite a bit on the whole!
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
19,318
8,321
Oblivion Express
The Verafin Huskies Brought To You By Browning Harvey

Coach:
Ken Hitchcock
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Alternate: Chris Chelios
Alternate: Lester Patrick

Brendan Shanahan - Evgeni Malkin - Rick Middleton
Frank Foyston - Ryan Getzlaf - Babe Dye
Johnny Gottselig - Rod Brind'amour - Joe Pavelski
Clark Gillies - Gregg Sheppard - Blair Russell

Lester Patrick - Chris Chelios
Georges Boucher - Eddie Gerard
Ted Harris - Kris Letang

Dominik Hasek
Mike Liut

Konstantin Loktev, Hamby Shore, Jason Spezza

Brendan Shanahan
Babe Dye - Rick Middleton - Evgeni Malkin
Georges Boucher

Joe Pavelski
Ryan Getzlaf - Frank Foyston - Lester Patrick
Chris Chelios

Rod Brind'amour - Johnny Gottselig
Eddie Gerard - Chris Chelios

Gregg Sheppard - Blair Russell
Ted Harris - Georges Boucher

Ice Time Estimates:

ESPPPKTOT
Malkin155020
Shanahan145019
Middleton144018
Foyston133016
Getzlaf123015
Dye124016
Brind'amour120416
Gottselig110415
Pavelski102012
Russell100313
Gillies8008
Sheppard70310
Chelios173424
Patrick172019
Gerard160521
Boucher154221
Letang140014
Harris130316
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


Very solid entry Johnny. Can't go wrong with that blueline/G situation. Besides my obvious D corps, your entry has to rank way up the ladder on talent/resume.

Coaching:

1g72w.gif


He's got one of the all time great "faces" of the league. Some coaches/players just have a look that fits them like a glove. For some reason Ken Hitchcock looks exactly how I'd imagine him without ever seeing him just based on someone describing his mannerisms haha.

Anyway, he's a decent coach. Many better but certainly some worse. Obviously he'll like a team that can defend and for the most part your roster will do that. If you get peak Malkin, he'll be fine here. Moody Malkin and Ken would hate him. Tanger might drive him nuts at times but behind Chelios-Gerard he won't need to play much anyway. Overall though, this is a nice roster for Hitchcock.

Great longevity as a regular season winner. I've never been warm and fuzzy about him as a postseason coach though. Good peak in Dallas but post lone star state, his record come April/beyond is pretty bleak and it's a long stretch of time.

Leadership:

I feel like Gerard is probably underrated in this position but it's just so hard to tell. Regardless he's very good in my book. After reading so much on him and the Sens, he was a highly respected player for a long time. Chelios and Patrick are both very nice A's. Interesting to see all the letters on the blue line! Collectively though this team doesn't lack for role models.

Forwards:

Top line makes a lot of sense. Malkin enjoys playing with people who can finish at a high rate. He's puck dominant and that won't be a problem with Shanny/Middleton on the wings. You've got some heavy cover for him with Shanny. 2 guys that can finish with an elite physical presence to crash and bang. If one looks closely enough, Malkin has generally posted very good numbers when Sid has missed time in years gone by. I think he can handle a soft #1 role here certainly, especially with Apps there. Question will be can these wings provide enough support?

2nd line is well constructed and provides quality scoring for a 2nd unit. I feel like Foyston is probably a relative mid to upper 70's VsX type. Had a huge peak in 1917. Then from 1919-20 through 1923-24 he finished anywhere from 2nd to 5th in scoring in the West. Good physicality, speed, goal scoring. Solid back checker. Clutch. Getzlaf is an 80+ VsX, heavily slanted playmaking C who's big, physical and will back check. He should love Babe Dye to his right. I'd wager he's well north of an 80 VsX given in his 7 of 8 full seasons he finished 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 10 in scoring. 4 goal scoring titles and 2 runner ups. They'll give up some chances going the other way but it's a good scoring line that checks off the boxes you want in that role.

Bottom 6 is classic depth scoring line + typical checking trio.

3rd line are all over 70 VsX. Brindy is a great defensive C as well + premium in the dot. Nice contrasting wingers that give their C quality support. Only possible negative I can see is the wingers might have a little trouble against the really physical defenders/F's but it's not glaring. The 4th line is the classic energy, checking, defending group. For that role, they'll do a solid job here.

Power Play:

Top unit is sneaky good, certainly from a F standpoint. Malkin and Dye are really good in those spots. Hard to cheat on both. Shanny down low is a handful to be sure. He'll do nicely there. I'd probably opt for Foyston over Middleton who wasn't used heavily on the PP in real life. Foyston's just the better player and goal scorer IMO. Gives you 3 legit scoring options across the board. Boucher running the point is solid in a draft this size. Obviously my worry is having 1 D up there on a Malkin PP who's had his fare share of really dumb, no look drop passes over the years. Boucher is the right choice to QB though, no doubt.

2nd unit seems just ok.

Defensemen:

Chelios is a rock solid #1 here. Above average certainly. He profiles well next to Patrick, allowing the latter to get involved offensively though Chelios is no black hole. He can move the puck in a pinch or help on a 2nd PP unit. Patrick is probably a mid to low end #3 at this point/draft size. Chelios is probably the last guy ranking wise I'd say is capable of leading a lower than normal #2 but as I said, the fit would seem to be great and there is no glaring weakness offensively or defensively speaking.

Really good 2nd pairing. Gerard's really solid #2 this year and Boucher a good/great #3. Obvious chemistry, both contributing heavily to the Sens dynasty of the early 20's. Got a great puck mover and puck stopper.

Harris/Letang is a nice bottom pairing. Letang is in a nice spot playing behind a really good combo above him at RD so he is sheltered well and can be inserted in better spots.

Really nice mix of talents here. Overall a good group this year.

Penalty Kill:

Love the top unit. Exactly how I'd have it. 2nd unit is just ok, as the D seem a little weak but Shepp and Russell are a good combo.

Goalies:

Hasek is Hasek. My #2 all time. He's one of the few guys who can legitimately take over most/all of a series. He's playing for a defensively minded coach, a strong blue line and a group of F's who will mostly do a solid job of assisting in that area. You have really good puck movers on each pairing so that will aid Dom in retrievals and breakouts.

Overall:

Really like this team especially at G/D. Forwards will be the wild card. Can they make enough happen offensively, series to series?

Good luck JE and thanks again for another great year!
 
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tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
16,972
2,418
Montreal, QC, Canada
Took 10 minutes to rip through the 7 season vs.x scores for every team's first lines. I was surprised at how packed so many teams are in the middle. 16 teams were within 10 points of 273. Only 4 teams below that, and only 4 teams above.

326.8 - Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky - Charlie Conacher
302.0 - Toe Blake - Steven Stamkos - Gordie Howe
298.8 - Doug Bentley - Mario Lemieux - Martin St. Louis
294.2 - Ted Lindsey - Ron Francis - Maurice Richard
-----
282.9 - Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Bernie Geoffrion
280.9 - John Leclair - Eric Lindros - Jaromir Jagr
277.7 - News Stewart - Sidney Crosby - Boris Mikhailov
275.3 - Bobby Hull - Milt Schmidt - Blake Wheeler
273.1 - Valeri Kharlamov - Doug Gilmour - Andy Bathgate
272.8 - Aurel Joliat - Howie Morenz - Brett Hull
272.4 - AVERAGE
271.8 - Busher Jackson - Cyclone Taylor - Daniel Alfredsson
269.3 - Alex Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall
268.0 - Anatoli Firsov - Mark Messier - Mark Recchi
267.4 - Frank Mahovlich Jean Ratelle - Sergei Makarov
266.7 - Paul Kariya - Frank Boucher - Jarome Iginla
266.7 - Alex Delvecchio - Bryan Trottier - Jari Kurri
265.7 - Dickie Moore - Denis Savard - Mike Bossy
265.3 - Patrik Elias - Max Bentley - Bill Cook
263.7 - Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone - Vladimir Martinec
263.3 - Ilya Kovalchuk - Stan Mikita - Joe Mullen
-----
253.1 - Bill Barber - Bobby Clarke - Teemu Selanne
253.0 - Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Hooley Smith
246.8 - Brendan Shanahan - Evgeni Malkin - Rick Middleton
232.1 - Bert Olmstead - Steve Yzerman - Cam Neely


This takes nothing into account aside from scores. Line makeup, chemistry, balance, etc are not considered. I also did this quickly, so none of my normal adjustments were made (Milt Schmidt war years, Bill Cook pre-NHL years, Charlie Conacher's seasons at defense, etc), so some might be a little lower than I would otherwise have them. Just wanted to run the numbers fast to see if my gut was right about a lot of these lines.


Makarov's NHL VsX doesn't approach his value- mine needs an asterisk!
 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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Makarov's NHL VsX doesn't approach his value- mine needs an asterisk!
I would expect there's some sort of fudge in play there? Especially as Martinec, Kharlamov and Mikhailov are all on the chart and don't seem to be tanking their respective lines with the zeroes they respectively put up in the NHL.
 
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tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
16,972
2,418
Montreal, QC, Canada
I would expect there's some sort of fudge in play there? Especially as Martinec, Kharlamov and Mikhailov are all on the chart and don't seem to be tanking their respective lines with the zeroes they respectively put up in the NHL.

Well there needs to be more fudge because none of those players could hold Makarov's you know what and both Ratelle and Mahovlich have excellent even strength VsX (19th and 26th all-time) and are both very good on the powerplay. They both led the league a few times in even strength points. I protest.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
19,255
7,681
Orillia, Ontario
I would expect there's some sort of fudge in play there? Especially as Martinec, Kharlamov and Mikhailov are all on the chart and don't seem to be tanking their respective lines with the zeroes they respectively put up in the NHL.

I gave both Makarov and Kharlamov 90. Martinec got an 80.

Well there needs to be more fudge because none of those players could hold Makarov's you know what and both Ratelle and Mahovlich have excellent even strength VsX (19th and 26th all-time) and are both very good on the powerplay. They both led the league a few times in even strength points. I protest.

I didn't use ES numbers. That chart is from 1960 forward, not all time.

If there ES numbers are better than their overall numbers, they cannot be good on the PP too.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
31,072
14,046
Thanks for the review, and sorry for the delay of my response.

Coaching:
I've been on the Barry Trotz bandwagon for a long time. I think I said he was the best coach in the NHL back in 2012. For me, he's proven to be the #1 modern coach. He's also a well-rounded coach. He instils a military-style structure of discipline and accountability, but he is also very popular among his players due to his desire to build consensus in the room. He's not in the elite group of Bowman, Blake, Patrick, and Tarasov. I'm not sure I'd put any other coach ahead of Trotz by any significant distance.

I like Barry Trotz too at this point. I picked him primarily because I had Bobby Hull, which is the closest thing to Alex Ovechkin in a sense, and Trotz was the one who managed to win with him. Another reason is that my team is very physical and Trotz fits well with that.

First Line:
Bobby Hull is an interesting player to build around. He has a reputation as almost a one-man-show, though it's tough to really say. Was he so puck dominant because of his line mates, or was he given those line mates because of his style? Kind of a chicken and egg scenario. If I recall, he and Phil Esposito had pretty good chemistry when they played together. Despite all that, Hull is easily the best offensive LWer of all time, and maybe the best goalscorer of any position.

I love the combination with Milt Schmidt. He's a player who can contribute in any way. If Hull needs the puck, Schmidt doesn't. If Hull can work well with others, Schmidt can do that too. I'm not sure I like Blake Wheeler on this line. Playmaking wingers need the puck to do their thing. While I don't think Hull HAS to have the puck, he's definitely the guy you want to have it. I think - despite the goalscorere / playmaker dynamic - Hull and Wheeler clash in effectiveness.

I don't see Hull as a one-man show. I think he was a pretty good playmaker, and better defensively than he is given credit for. That's not to say he didn't make a lot of individual rushes, but this facet has been overblowned IMO. He and Esposito indeed had good chemistry, and I saw it with my own eyes watching an entire game earlier this year. Another underrated side of Hull is that he was quite physical, so he brings that that many other top wingers don't.

I agree Blake Wheeler looks like an eyesore on that line, but my thinking is that he's a 3rd-wheeler(!) and not important enough to "get in the way" of the Hull-Schmidt combination. I expect him to make some plays deep in the offensive zone and to contribute to fatigue the defense with his size, but not much more.

I guess it's my fault for being so careless in letting JohnnyEngine steal Rick Middleton from me, something that would never have happened when I was in my "prime" as an ATD GM. I have gotten too laissez-faire and careless with such details and it cost me.

If Wheeler becomes too problematic, Trotz can always recreates a Kraut-on-steroids-line with Dumart-Schmidt-Kane, as Patrick Kane feels like a similar but better version of Bobby Bauer to me. Then I'd go with Hull-Ullman-Wheeler. Or I can always just put Dave Taylor on my 1st line, where he will be a quiet contributor without making any wave. All this to say, there are options available to Trotz to juggle the lines.

Second Line:
Love Norm Ullman. Like Schmidt, he can play whatever role you want on the line. Patrick Kane is starting to really creep up the all-time RW list. He's an excellent line-driving offensive player. He and Ullman should work really well together. Dumart is a decent glue guy, though I'm not sure how much offense he will contribute.

Overall, the Kane-Ullman combo should be able to score well for a second line. Ullman and Dumart make it really good defensively and tough to play against.

I feel this is my team's biggest strenght. Ullman is a borderline 1C, especially at even-strenght, and like you said Kane is creeping up the all-time RW list. Taking into account his half-season, he seems pretty much in the Geoffrion ballpark, making him a strong 1st line RWer. I guess Dumart's offense will be a residue of what the Ullman-Kane combo can generate, while providing physicality and defense to support Ullman's all-around game.

Third Line:
Roenick brings a high energy and good offensive skill for a 3rd line. Giroux scores so much on the PP, I'm not sure exactly how much he brings at ES. Taylor seems like a standard glue guy for a 3rd line.

Overall, depending on your view of Giroux at ES, this line could be pretty bland, not weak, but not great.

I haven't checked around but value-wise Giroux-Roenick-Taylor seems above-average for a 3rd line, though maybe I'm wrong. Even if Giroux is a PP specialist, he's still talented enough to play on 3rd line I would say. One thing I like about that line is it brings a bit of everything; physicality, offense, defense.

Fourth Line:
I really like Ken Mosdell and Jerry Toppazizni. Both guys are strong defensively, both guys are big boys. Neither is an offensive blackhole either. Not sure I like Davidson in a draft this small.

I drafted Davidson for his physicality, keeping in mind I have many divisional reasons to do so, one of which is Gordie Howe (but not saying Davidson is gonna shadow him at all, just that he can *handle* him at least), another is to pound on Pierre Pilote and wear him out continuously with Hull, Dumart and Davidson at LW, and Dumart, Ullman, Roenick and Mosdell at center. Pilote was known to get tired in the playoffs facing physically imposing opponents.

First Pairing:
I'm a huge fan of Sprague Cleghorn - I think he's in the mix for a top-10 defenseman. Totally well-rounded, though a little bit insane. Art Coulter is solid defensively, but I think he's a pretty weak #2.

I'm with you on Cleghorn, and I voted him high on the Top 100 Projects. I have him as Chelios' equal, except that he was more indisciplined (but even that should be quantified one day, as to what it actually cost to his team). Coulter is indeed a weak #2, but he gives me Eddie Gerard vibes with his excellent defense and leadership, so figured he'd fit well with Sprague.

Second Pairing:
Harry Cameron is a good offensive defenseman, though with warts. I think you've got enough leadership to keep him in check. Babe Siebert is a tricky read. I'm really not sure how to gauge him at all.

Since I had a weak #2, I drafted two high-end #3 for my second pairing, basically Coulter, Cameron and Siebert are all high-end #3Ds (and I have no pure #2). Cameron has his warts but at least it's not defense. Cameron was hard to coach and undisciplined off-the-ice, but I surrounded him with three known leaders on the Top 4 of my blueline, with all of Cleghorn, Coulter and Siebert wearing letters. Hopefully that will get him straightened out.

I agree Siebert is a tough read, short peak, but I liked his all-aroundness and his physicality besides Cameron. I guess I see Siebert as a two-way defenseman with a very physical game, who also played LW a lot. Basically... he's a lite version of Dit Clapper???

Goaltending:
Hainsworth is one of the weakest starters in this draft. Kipprusoff is a solid back-up.

Fair

PP:
That first unit is just horrifying. Take penalties at your own risk!

PK:
I'm not sure how good Siebert here. Maybe you can educate me, since I've had a hard time actually figuring out how good he is.

With my special unit, something I must say is that ideally Cleghorn would be an asset on both 1st units, but here I play him on the 2nd units of both PP and PK for different reasons:

On PP, I had Hull as a LH shot and since you can't beat that, I picked Cameron as a RH shot, relegating Cleghorn to the 2nd unit where he is overqualified. On the PK, since he's the most likely to get penalized, I didn't want to rely on him.

Siebert: My reasoning is that I'll be facing Howe but especially Jean Béliveau on the PK, so I really needed PKers that could handle his size in front of the net. I think I accomplished that with Coulter, Siebert and Cleghorn, who were all tall and strong. I still see Coulter as my top PKer though.

Thanks for the review again, it was fair and I appreciate it.
 
Last edited:

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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Well there needs to be more fudge because none of those players could hold Makarov's you know what and both Ratelle and Mahovlich have excellent even strength VsX (19th and 26th all-time) and are both very good on the powerplay. They both led the league a few times in even strength points. I protest.
It can be figured out what's being suggested here.
Bathgate+Gilmour=183.1, meaning Kharlamov's fudge must give him a VsX7 of 90, near his contemporaries Clarke and Ratelle.
Mahovlich+Ratelle=177.4, meaning the VsX7 used for Makarov is also exactly 90. More than Messier but less than Yzerman and Trottier. This is a bit of a surprise to me but perhaps his 8th-11th best seasons really blow Kharlamov out of the water? I wouldn't know without looking at the data.

One thing is for sure, is that Makarov didn't get VsX of 90 from the Flames or Sharks.
 

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