ATD 2020 Draft Thread IV

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Heh, good to know. I was going by this thread Some soviet defensemen, Left or Right?

Eh, considering I was reading that thread too, you'd think I'd remember it better?

I mean, as a LHS, he probably can play LD, but it appears you are right that he exclusively played RD at a high level

 

[DitchMarner]

D Ed Jovanovski.

 

[Habsfan18]

D Ed Jovanovski.

From MLD spare to ATD starting lineup. The result of a 40 teamer lol

I like Jovo though! Solid player.

 

[Johnny Engine]

From the land of the ice and snow from the midnight sun where the hot springs flow, the St. John’s (Vinland) IceCaps welcome the little Viking, Mats Naslund!

 

[Habsfan18]

1) Thank you for giving actual information (the bolded part)

2) I've openly stated that I thought seventieslord won ATD2011 despite his second line, not because of it. I was not particularly happy with Cashman on RW, for instance.

3) Whether a GM in the past "got away with something" or not, I thought we were supposed to be advancing our knowledge here.

Seeing some of the other 1st line LWers in this thing so far, I think Jack Adams stacks up perfectly fine. Nothing against the players but if Dick Duff, Kevin Stevens, Esa Tikkanen, Jamie Benn, Clarke Gillies etc..can play on a top line I don’t see why Adams would be out of place? It’s a 40 team draft. He brings a nice physical element to that Oates-Geoffrion line and his scoring stacks up pretty nicely as well.

And as Seventies showed, he did play LW a fair amount as well. Enough to be listed as a C/LW pretty much yearly in this thing.

 

[The Macho King]

Sorry out and about - Battleship Leduc.

PM next for me?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Sorry out and about - Battleship Leduc.

PM next for me?

I'm notified

Out to dinner. Will pick in a bit. Guessing about 930-1000 pm EST

 

[BenchBrawl]

Eh, considering I was reading that thread too, you'd think I'd remember it better?

I mean, as a LHS, he probably can play LD, but it appears you are right that he exclusively played RD at a high level

As much as possible I reject this "LHS can play LD" mentality in the ATD. If the guy played strictly at RD, I don't care if he's RHS, LHS or ambidextrous, he should play at RD.

No one is saying Maurice Richard can play at LW because he's LHS.

Paradoxally I'm more open than most about chemistry twists like playing Bergeron on Crosby's RW if the chemistry was acknowledged enough. Guess I was wrong and shouldn't have done that though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Seeing some of the other 1st line LWers in this thing so far, I think Jack Adams stacks up perfectly fine. Nothing against the players but if Dick Duff, Kevin Stevens, Esa Tikkanen, Jamie Benn, Clarke Gillies etc..can play on a top line I don’t see why Adams would be out of place? It’s a 40 team draft. He brings a nice physical element to that Oates-Geoffrion line and his scoring stacks up pretty nicely as well.

And as Seventies showed, he did play LW a fair amount as well. Enough to be listed as a C/LW pretty much yearly in this thing.

One of these things don't belong... (Jamie Benn is clearly the best of that bunch, at least as a scorer)

@seventieslord told me that he used The Trail of the Stanley Cup to show that Adams played 20% of his playoff games at LW. Make of that what you will.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Seeing some of the other 1st line LWers in this thing so far, I think Jack Adams stacks up perfectly fine. Nothing against the players but if Dick Duff, Kevin Stevens, Esa Tikkanen, Jamie Benn, Clarke Gillies etc..can play on a top line I don’t see why Adams would be out of place? It’s a 40 team draft. He brings a nice physical element to that Oates-Geoffrion line and his scoring stacks up pretty nicely as well.

And as Seventies showed, he did play LW a fair amount as well. Enough to be listed as a C/LW pretty much yearly in this thing.

Like as TDMM said Jamie Benn is far better and way more deserving than the rest of that group.

- Top-10 in his league in points seven times (10th-PCHA-1920, 3rd-PCHA-1921, 1st-PCHA-1922, 4th-NHL-1923, 7th-NHL-1924, 6th-NHL-1925, 5th-NHL-1926)

Jack Adam's peak PCHA seasons 1921 and 1922 are probably at the weakest time in PCHA/western hockey history, I'd take those with a grain of salt

Edit: Much like the discussion on Stewart at LW, which I've shown he played almost 2 full season at a high level at the position. If possible I'd love to know exactly how much LW Adam's played. I see TDMM's comment about the game summaries from Trail, but where did Adams play during his two big seasons?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Back home, pick coming in the next 10 minutes.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is a player who led his league, the PCHA, in assists, twice. Points once. He was a postseason AS 5 times. He played with a legendary goal scorer in Cyclone Taylor in Vancouver for many years. He now gets to skate with the original legendary goal scorer in Russell Bowie. He was very physical, great fore checker and good back checker. Had big speed. No stranger to dropping the gloves. With his solid offensive totals, slanted towards play making, and just overall complete nature of play, he should complete what is my favorite offensive line I've ever accomplished in an ATD.

Pittsburgh is proud to introduce, the final 3rd of the Pioneer Line: (Harris-Bowie-Russel)

Fred "Smokey" Harris, LW

ATD 2017 Bios
-Fantastic bio by @ResilientBeast

Honors

Member of Western Team in 1913 All Star Game
League Leader in Assists 2x (1919-20 and 1923-24)
League Leader in Points (1920-21)
League Leader in Penalty Minutes (1913-1914)
Stanley Cup Playoff Points Leader (1915-1916)
Stanley Cup Playoff Assists Leader (1915-1916)
PCHA Playoff Goals Leader (1920-21)
PCHA Playoff Points Leader (1920-21)
4 x PCHA League Champion (1916, 1921, 1922, 1923)
PCHA First All-Team (1913, 1916, 1919, 1920)
PCHA Second All-Star Team (1922)

Statistics

1912-13 - 14 Goals - 20 Points - 2nd League Wide
1913-14 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1914-15 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1915-16 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 11th League Wide
1916-17 - 18 Goals - 31 Points - 7th League Wide
1917-18 - 5 Goals - 11 Points - 12th League Wide (missed half the season)
1918-19 - 20 Goals - 26 Points - 3rd League Wide
1919-20 - 14 Goals - 24 Points - 4th League Wide
1920-21 - 15 Goals - 32 Points - 1st League Wide
1921-22 - 10 Goals - 14 Points - 10th League Wide
1922-23 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 13th League Wide
1923-24 - 8 Goals - 18 Points - 7th League Wide

Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)

The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51

Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69

The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119

What we can see is when he wasn't playing with Taylor his assists per season increased and while in his prime he was a competent scorer when not playing with the greatest player in the league.

Consolidated Scoring Finishes

1913 - 7th - 21.949 - Vs2: 70.035
1914 - ? - 14.063 - Vs2: 41.477
1915 - ? - 13.465 - Vs2: 37.766
1916 - ? - 15.305 - Vs2: 49.853
1917 - ? - 25.82 - Vs2: 55.999
1918 - 6 - 26.88 - Vs2: 68.746 (assumes he would have been healthy)
1919 - 4 - 23.40 - Vs2: 89.655
1920 - 5 - 27.28 - Vs2: 86.219
1921 - 3 - 32.00 - Vs2: 100

Those not in the thread I figured out myself using Taylor as a baseline

7 Year Total (Vs2): 520.507
Vs2 Seven year average: 74.358

Compared to VsX this result makes him the 33rd highest scoring LW

7 Year Total (Vs1): 476
Vs1 Seven year average: 68

Compared to VsX this makes him the 50th highest scoring LW

Take from this what you will but he is very clearly a good 3rd line left wing in a draft this size.

Playoff Scoring

Overall playoff data
24 Points in 26 Games
PCHA Playoff
14 Points in 12 Games
Stanley Cup Games
10 Points in 14 Games

Comparing to Taylor and MacKay

Taylor St Cup: 1.818 Pts/Game
Mackay St Cup: 1.3076 Pts/game
Harris St Cup: 0.7142 Pts/Game

Taylor PCHA: 0.9285
MacKay PCHA: 0.900
Harris PCHA: 1.166

Take from this what you will but Harris appears to have been a pretty solid playoff performer as well.


Other Quotes:

If They Played Hockey in Heaven said:

Smokey Harris, the master hook-checker...
​

Coast to Coast said:

Fred Harris, the roughest and toughest boy in the league
​

Ultimate Hockey said:

... showed wonderful stamina and skated at a terrific pace.
​

The Trail of the Stanley Cup; Vol. 1 said:

He was a fast skater and smooth stickhandler…

The Edmonton Bulletin said:

Still Going Strong
"Smokey" Harris who plays left wing for the Millionaires and who tied with Frank Frederickson for the individual honours last season started with his Coast League career with Vancouver and after a couple of seasons with Portland came back to his home town. Time does not appear to have slowed him up and last year he gave one of the best displays of his career being a prolific scorer and one of the most agressive forwards in the game.


Fred Harris of Portland formerly of Kenora has been the same old Fred in every game this season always a persistent and relentless check and a pretty handy man to have round on the attack too, as the figures will show. Fred goes at top speed from the start to finish as well as his willingness to work in combination with the other men on the forward line gives him the call.​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is a player who led his league, the PCHA, in assists, twice. Points once. He was a postseason AS 5 times. He played with a legendary goal scorer in Cyclone Taylor in Vancouver for many years. He now gets to skate with the original legendary goal scorer in Russell Bowie. He was very physical, great fore checker and good back checker. Had big speed. No stranger to dropping the gloves. With his solid offensive totals, slanted towards play making, and just overall complete nature of play, he should complete what is my favorite offensive line I've ever accomplished in an ATD.

Pittsburgh is proud to introduce, the final 3rd of the Pioneer Line: (Harris-Bowie-Russel)

Fred "Smokey" Harris, LW

ATD 2017 Bios
-Fantastic bio by @ResilientBeast

Honors

Member of Western Team in 1913 All Star Game
League Leader in Assists 2x (1919-20 and 1923-24)
League Leader in Points (1920-21)
League Leader in Penalty Minutes (1913-1914)
Stanley Cup Playoff Points Leader (1915-1916)
Stanley Cup Playoff Assists Leader (1915-1916)
PCHA Playoff Goals Leader (1920-21)
PCHA Playoff Points Leader (1920-21)
4 x PCHA League Champion (1916, 1921, 1922, 1923)
PCHA First All-Team (1913, 1916, 1919, 1920)
PCHA Second All-Star Team (1922)

Statistics

1912-13 - 14 Goals - 20 Points - 2nd League Wide
1913-14 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1914-15 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1915-16 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 11th League Wide
1916-17 - 18 Goals - 31 Points - 7th League Wide
1917-18 - 5 Goals - 11 Points - 12th League Wide (missed half the season)
1918-19 - 20 Goals - 26 Points - 3rd League Wide
1919-20 - 14 Goals - 24 Points - 4th League Wide
1920-21 - 15 Goals - 32 Points - 1st League Wide
1921-22 - 10 Goals - 14 Points - 10th League Wide
1922-23 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 13th League Wide
1923-24 - 8 Goals - 18 Points - 7th League Wide

Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)

The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51

Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69

The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119

What we can see is when he wasn't playing with Taylor his assists per season increased and while in his prime he was a competent scorer when not playing with the greatest player in the league.

Consolidated Scoring Finishes

1913 - 7th - 21.949 - Vs2: 70.035
1914 - ? - 14.063 - Vs2: 41.477
1915 - ? - 13.465 - Vs2: 37.766
1916 - ? - 15.305 - Vs2: 49.853
1917 - ? - 25.82 - Vs2: 55.999
1918 - 6 - 26.88 - Vs2: 68.746 (assumes he would have been healthy)
1919 - 4 - 23.40 - Vs2: 89.655
1920 - 5 - 27.28 - Vs2: 86.219
1921 - 3 - 32.00 - Vs2: 100

Those not in the thread I figured out myself using Taylor as a baseline

7 Year Total (Vs2): 520.507
Vs2 Seven year average: 74.358

Compared to VsX this result makes him the 33rd highest scoring LW

7 Year Total (Vs1): 476
Vs1 Seven year average: 68

Compared to VsX this makes him the 50th highest scoring LW

Take from this what you will but he is very clearly a good 3rd line left wing in a draft this size.

Playoff Scoring

Overall playoff data
24 Points in 26 Games
PCHA Playoff
14 Points in 12 Games
Stanley Cup Games
10 Points in 14 Games

Comparing to Taylor and MacKay

Taylor St Cup: 1.818 Pts/Game
Mackay St Cup: 1.3076 Pts/game
Harris St Cup: 0.7142 Pts/Game

Taylor PCHA: 0.9285
MacKay PCHA: 0.900
Harris PCHA: 1.166

Take from this what you will but Harris appears to have been a pretty solid playoff performer as well.


Other Quotes:

If They Played Hockey in Heaven said:

Smokey Harris, the master hook-checker...
​

Coast to Coast said:

Fred Harris, the roughest and toughest boy in the league
​

Ultimate Hockey said:

... showed wonderful stamina and skated at a terrific pace.
​

The Trail of the Stanley Cup; Vol. 1 said:

He was a fast skater and smooth stickhandler…

The Edmonton Bulletin said:

Still Going Strong
"Smokey" Harris who plays left wing for the Millionaires and who tied with Frank Frederickson for the individual honours last season started with his Coast League career with Vancouver and after a couple of seasons with Portland came back to his home town. Time does not appear to have slowed him up and last year he gave one of the best displays of his career being a prolific scorer and one of the most agressive forwards in the game.


Fred Harris of Portland formerly of Kenora has been the same old Fred in every game this season always a persistent and relentless check and a pretty handy man to have round on the attack too, as the figures will show. Fred goes at top speed from the start to finish as well as his willingness to work in combination with the other men on the forward line gives him the call.​

Solid pick now, but those stats all need asterixes by them, as they were clearly influenced by playing with Cyclone Taylor.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Solid pick now, but those stats all need asterixes by them, as they were clearly influenced by playing with Cyclone Taylor.

Somewhat, his per game averages remain the same in his peak years in Portland away from Taylor

From my bio, in the post above

Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)

The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51

Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69

The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119

 

[VanIslander]

Solid pick now, but those stats all need asterixes by them, as they were clearly influenced by playing with Cyclone Taylor.

Like Nicklas Backstrom, whom we see get A LOT of assists out of simple passes to a rushing OV.

Yeah; Backstrom has skill, but what Weight accomplished without great scorers in mid-90's Edmonton is more impressive.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Solid pick now, but those stats all need asterixes by them, as they were clearly influenced by playing with Cyclone Taylor.

Of course. Won't argue that but in the same breath can say, Bowie was a pretty legendary scorer himself in his era. Considering Bowie-Russel is a real life duo, I'm pretty stoked to get Harris to round the line out as I think the fit is about as close to perfect as you can get for a Bowie line. Obviously some good fortune to get value, just proud to have assembled that line. Really didn't think ole Smokey would fall that far. Hasn't been this low in a long, long time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Somewhat, his per game averages remain the same in his peak years in Portland away from Taylor

From my bio, in the post above

Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)

The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51

Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69

The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119

What was the breakdown in goals and assists in the year Harris outscored Taylor? It's important because Taylor was something of a generational playmaker at a time when hockey was stingy at giving out assists.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Of course. Won't argue that but in the same breath can say, Bowie was a pretty legendary scorer himself in his era. Considering Bowie-Russel is a real life duo, I'm pretty stoked to get Harris to round the line out as I think the fit is about as close to perfect as you can get for a Bowie line. Obviously some good fortune to get value, just proud to have assembled that line. Really didn't think ole Smokey would fall that far. Hasn't been this low in a long, long time.

Harris is definitely better offensively than Russel

 

[ImporterExporter]

Harris is definitely better offensively than Russel

Agreed. Russel is essentially the glue guy although Harris plays the same style which I really like with a guy like Bowie. Those 2 can double team the corner work and defensive responsibilities and let Bowie do his thing which is produce a lot of offense for a 2nd line.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And I did pm Namba who was online the last time I checked.

 

[Namba 17]

Murray Oliver, C

 

[ResilientBeast]

What was the breakdown in goals and assists in the year Harris outscored Taylor? It's important because Taylor was something of a generational playmaker at a time when hockey was stingy at giving out assists.

1912-13
Harris
14 Goals, 6 Assists

Taylor
10 Goals, 8 Assists

Harris appears to have been a fairly good playmaker as well. With modern assists standards Taylor would take the lead. But Harris would get a boost as well

 

[Namba 17]

I pmed both @papershoes and @tony d

 

[tony d]

So I guess @papershoes is still being skipped. I’ll make my pick soon but want to make sure paper shoes is still being skipped.

 

[Namba 17]

So I guess @papershoes is still being skipped. I’ll make my pick soon but want to make sure paper shoes is still being skipped.

@papershoes was autoskipped, because he was skipped the last pick and because he wished so.
It seems, that @tony d is skipped now and it's @Dreakmur' turn.