ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[Hawkey Town 18]

LOL.

So, one's hard work that's not "outlined" isn't worth much?

When did anyone say this? Seventies did a lot of work on his bios and he's letting people know how it went. This is useful information for the next GM that does a bio on these players. It might also inspire others to put in the same amount of hard work and research into their own bios (if they have the time for it), especially newer GM's, which I hope it does.

 

[Theokritos]

So, one's hard work that's not "outlined" isn't worth much?

I didn't suggest that.

 

[seventieslord]

View attachment 94561

This file is a screenshot of my attempt to rank every team's forwards from 1-15 (or less, depending on the number of spare forwards) by their overall defensive ability and impact. The following considerations were made:

- selke voting
- overall reputation aside from voting
- penalty killing value
- volume and value of quotes
- longevity, did a player provide the same average level as another but for longer?
- sometimes we know little to nothing about a player's defensive ability. These players are at the bottom ends of the lists for the most part. I made educated guesses based on other factors: were they seen as a leader? backchecking might have been why. was another one of their linemates known as good defensively? that probably meant they didn't have to focus on it. were they tough or good in the corners? probably means they used those skills to some degree in their own zone. Did they ever play defense? that had to help them as a forward to some degree. and so on.

Results provided in good faith. Take a look at your own team and let me know if anything seems out of whack. I may know something about every player, and everything about some players, but no one can know everything about every player.

With every team ranked on its own, I'm going to take this and try a big 1-357 rank now. But it won't be ranked in such a hair-splitting fashion - everyone will be in tiers, and it will be on a bell curve with players rated anything from 0 to 10, with fewer and fewer players in each tier as you move outwards from 5 towards 0 and 10. With all of us drafting a large number of players who are "very good" defensively or even just "good", it might help to put into perspective where some players rank and how good a player has to be before you can really call him good in an ATD sense, or, as some put it "at least a plus defensively".

 

[jarek]

View attachment 94561

This file is a screenshot of my attempt to rank every team's forwards from 1-15 (or less, depending on the number of spare forwards) by their overall defensive ability and impact. The following considerations were made:

- selke voting
- overall reputation aside from voting
- penalty killing value
- volume and value of quotes
- longevity, did a player provide the same average level as another but for longer?
- sometimes we know little to nothing about a player's defensive ability. These players are at the bottom ends of the lists for the most part. I made educated guesses based on other factors: were they seen as a leader? backchecking might have been why. was another one of their linemates known as good defensively? that probably meant they didn't have to focus on it. were they tough or good in the corners? probably means they used those skills to some degree in their own zone. Did they ever play defense? that had to help them as a forward to some degree. and so on.

Results provided in good faith. Take a look at your own team and let me know if anything seems out of whack. I may know something about every player, and everything about some players, but no one can know everything about every player.

With every team ranked on its own, I'm going to take this and try a big 1-357 rank now. But it won't be ranked in such a hair-splitting fashion - everyone will be in tiers, and it will be on a bell curve with players rated anything from 0 to 10, with fewer and fewer players in each tier as you move outwards from 5 towards 0 and 10. With all of us drafting a large number of players who are "very good" defensively or even just "good", it might help to put into perspective where some players rank and how good a player has to be before you can really call him good in an ATD sense, or, as some put it "at least a plus defensively".

Surprised you view Parise's defensive game as better than Joliat's. That suggests to me that you don't actually find Joliat's defensive game all that special, although maybe my read is wrong there. I would also lump Starshinov in with those two.. there's enough about his defensive ability in the bio I put together (huge credit to Theokritos!) to suggest he should be viewed as more than just a plus here.

 

[MadArcand]

I'd say Liba should be in same tier as Tonelli, and Smyth as Better Naslund, but that's about it.

 

[895]

View attachment 94561

This file is a screenshot of my attempt to rank every team's forwards from 1-15 (or less, depending on the number of spare forwards) by their overall defensive ability and impact. The following considerations were made:

- selke voting
- overall reputation aside from voting
- penalty killing value
- volume and value of quotes
- longevity, did a player provide the same average level as another but for longer?
- sometimes we know little to nothing about a player's defensive ability. These players are at the bottom ends of the lists for the most part. I made educated guesses based on other factors: were they seen as a leader? backchecking might have been why. was another one of their linemates known as good defensively? that probably meant they didn't have to focus on it. were they tough or good in the corners? probably means they used those skills to some degree in their own zone. Did they ever play defense? that had to help them as a forward to some degree. and so on.

Results provided in good faith. Take a look at your own team and let me know if anything seems out of whack. I may know something about every player, and everything about some players, but no one can know everything about every player.

With every team ranked on its own, I'm going to take this and try a big 1-357 rank now. But it won't be ranked in such a hair-splitting fashion - everyone will be in tiers, and it will be on a bell curve with players rated anything from 0 to 10, with fewer and fewer players in each tier as you move outwards from 5 towards 0 and 10. With all of us drafting a large number of players who are "very good" defensively or even just "good", it might help to put into perspective where some players rank and how good a player has to be before you can really call him good in an ATD sense, or, as some put it "at least a plus defensively".

I don't actually have Westwick.

Other than that, I feel you have Noble too low.

He played defense for the later part of his career and was supposed to be good right?

Also is Crosby even good defensively other than putting in an honest effort into backchecking and defense through puck protection?

 

[seventieslord]

I don't actually have Westwick.

Other than that, I feel you have Noble too low.

He played defense for the later part of his career and was supposed to be good right?

westwick is on your roster on the roster thread. if you don't have him, who do you have?

Noble played defense later in his career and I definitely took that into consideration, but that's why he's already where he is, and not down with unknowns like Stewart and Bauer.

 

[seventieslord]

I'll take Harry Westwick

I thought this meant you selected westwick.

 

[Johnny Engine]

There are a few places where I'd have inserted little breaks here and there to line up the players on different teams a little better, side by side, but that would be largely splitting hairs. Noble might benefit somewhat if you spread this thing out over say, 30 rows.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

View attachment 94561

This file is a screenshot of my attempt to rank every team's forwards from 1-15 (or less, depending on the number of spare forwards) by their overall defensive ability and impact. The following considerations were made:

- selke voting
- overall reputation aside from voting
- penalty killing value
- volume and value of quotes
- longevity, did a player provide the same average level as another but for longer?
- sometimes we know little to nothing about a player's defensive ability. These players are at the bottom ends of the lists for the most part. I made educated guesses based on other factors: were they seen as a leader? backchecking might have been why. was another one of their linemates known as good defensively? that probably meant they didn't have to focus on it. were they tough or good in the corners? probably means they used those skills to some degree in their own zone. Did they ever play defense? that had to help them as a forward to some degree. and so on.

Results provided in good faith. Take a look at your own team and let me know if anything seems out of whack. I may know something about every player, and everything about some players, but no one can know everything about every player.

With every team ranked on its own, I'm going to take this and try a big 1-357 rank now. But it won't be ranked in such a hair-splitting fashion - everyone will be in tiers, and it will be on a bell curve with players rated anything from 0 to 10, with fewer and fewer players in each tier as you move outwards from 5 towards 0 and 10. With all of us drafting a large number of players who are "very good" defensively or even just "good", it might help to put into perspective where some players rank and how good a player has to be before you can really call him good in an ATD sense, or, as some put it "at least a plus defensively".

If I hadnt done a bio for Oliver, where would he have ranked?

 

[895]

westwick is on your roster on the roster thread. if you don't have him, who do you have?

Noble played defense later in his career and I definitely took that into consideration, but that's why he's already where he is, and not down with unknowns like Stewart and Bauer.

Oh I guess I do.

 

[seventieslord]

If I hadnt done a bio for Oliver, where would he have ranked?

maybe down below Nash?

I mean, I'm still pretty sure he was a 95% offense player, but you did create some doubt.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Additional thoughts on my own players:

-Giroux is pretty good defensively in real life. At the very least, he should be better than Maltsev. On my own team, I think he should be on the same level as Cook, whom I believe has very little on his defensive game.

-Nash should also be on the same level as Cook

-Apparently, Krutov was considered very good defensively during his prime. Again, he could probably be on the same level as Cook.

So, either Cook needs to be bumped down one notch or the above guys need to be bumped up a notch.

 

[seventieslord]

Here's what I came up with...

even though this was not meant to split hairs, certainly when i got towards the end of a tier and had to fill the last few spots from about a dozen who seemed deserving, it still felt like splitting hairs.

So definitely there will be cases where a player will be a level away from where you might put him. But if you see anyone who I'm way off on (let's say 2 levels or more), let's talk about him.

 

[seventieslord]

...and the rest.

View attachment 94569

 

[MadArcand]

Is Damphousse really in the Messier/Toews/Hossa tier, and above Sakic/Sanderson/Propp?

 

[seventieslord]

Is Damphousse really in the Messier/Toews/Hossa tier, and above Sakic/Sanderson/Propp?

maybe not. it's all subjective. I could be convinced. For example, he really only started to show a noteworthy two-way game about halfway through his career, right?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I don't think that Damphousse should be in the same tier as Toews or Hossa, but I think Damphousse is fine where he is and those two should be moved up a tier.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I think Makarov should be bumped up based on his PK and possession ability. Batis started a nice thread in the HOH board about how Makarov and Krutov were the top PK forwards for the Soviets with some good supporting video evidence. I've included a lot of the info in my Makarov bio.

I might bump Apps because of the coach he played for. Also, I don't see what separates Patrick Kane and Apps defensively.

 

[seventieslord]

I definitely agree Toews and Damphousse on the same tier looks off, and I'd like to move Toews up, but at whose expense?

Finnigan, Mosdell, Kurri, Sullivan, Barber would be my five candidates.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I definitely agree Toews and Damphousse on the same tier looks off, and I'd like to move Toews up, but at whose expense?

Finnigan, Mosdell, Kurri, Sullivan, Barber would be my five candidates.

Does it really have to be that exact where it's one in one out?

 

[seventieslord]

Does it really have to be that exact where it's one in one out?

I'd prefer that, to maintain the bell curve and the "not everyone is great at everything" mindset I'm hoping to promote.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I definitely agree Toews and Damphousse on the same tier looks off, and I'd like to move Toews up, but at whose expense?

Finnigan, Mosdell, Kurri, Sullivan, Barber would be my five candidates.

This made me think, what makes Barber better defensively than Hossa?


Also, he's not on your list of candidates, but what makes Dirk Graham better than the other defensive wingers in the tier below like Marcotte, Nesterenko, Nevin, Klukay, etc?


Just to let you know, I think you did a very good job with this, and I understand the line has to be drawn somewhere, especially when you're going for a bell curve shape...These are just some things that popped into my head, as I'm sure you can tell they're mostly regarding players I'm familiar with, either because I've drafted them or because they are/were Blackhawks.

 

[jarek]

I think it's kind of silly to try to force a bell curve on this. What if the reality is closer to the following:

Top tier: 39 players
Second tier: 18 players
Third tier: 42 players
Fourth tier: 26 players

Etc.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Is Damphousse really in the Messier/Toews/Hossa tier, and above Sakic/Sanderson/Propp?

No way in my opinion.

Still think Modano is overrated around these parts defensively as well. I wouldn't have him the equal of a lot of the guys in his tier.

I might bump Apps because of the coach he played for. Also, I don't see what separates Patrick Kane and Apps defensively.

There is almost nothing available regarding Apps defensive game as an individual at all. I don't see how anyone could confidently rank him.