ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

Sprague Cleghorn

User Registered
Aug 14, 2013
3,521
508
Edmonton, KY
Same disclaimer as above.

Elite 1st line LW:
Hull
Ovechkin
Lindsay
Kharlamov
Moore

Above average 1st line LW:
Blake
Joliat
Mahovlich
Bucyk
Denneny

Average 1st line LW:
Bentley
Firsov
Jackson
Malone
Delvecchio

Below average 1st line LW:
Robitaille
Phillips
Goulet
Schriner
Zetterberg

Weak 1st line LW:
Howe
Olmstead
Shanahan
LeClair
Kariya

Elite 2nd line LW:
Kovalchuk
Conacher
Thompson
Noble
Yakushev

AA 2nd line LW:
Krutov
Gainey
Gillies
Elias
Tkachuk

Average 2nd line LW:
Barber
Mar. Naslund
Cook
Dumart
Hay

BA 2nd line LW:
Brind'Amour
Northcott
Sedin
Lewis
Ga. Roberts

Weak 2nd line LW:
Lehtinen
Martin
Ramsay
Tonelli
Pulford

Elite 3rd line LW:
Go. Roberts
Propp
Prentice
Shutt
Pavelich

AA 3rd line LW:
Gottselig
Holik
Mckenney
Leswick
Tikkanen

Average 3rd line LW:
Benn
Klukay
Harris
Kapustin
Watson

BA 3rd line LW:
Damphousse
Metz
Marleau
Marcotte
Stevens

Weak 3rd line LW:
Duff
T. Smith
Crawford
Graves
S. Smith

Elite 4th line LW:
Mayorov
Marshall
Balon
Tremblay
Nash

AA 4th line LW:
Stanfield
Simmer
Mat. Naslund
Parise
Mackell

Average 4th line LW:
Andreychuk
Sutter
Bridgman
Bourne
Alexandrov

BA 4th line LW:
Davidson
Liba
Clark
Patrick
Marshall

Weak 4th line LW:
Rolston
Marchand
Hadfield
Sandford
Tanguay
 
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jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,005
238
I think with everything that's been uncovered about Starshinov lately, I don't think it's unreasonable to think of him as a very strong 3rd line center here. There were question marks about his defensive ability which should have been put to bed. He's very, very physical, and I don't see that he's any worse offensively than someone like Duke Keats.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
36,210
6,884
South Korea
Sprague, interesting arrangement.

Kharlamov might belong among those you list as 'above average' instead of those you have as 'elite', at least in some people's eyes. And Bucyk might move down to join:

Average 1st line LW:
Bentley
Firsov
Jackson
Malone
Delvecchio

And I was looking for our 2nd liner Phillips and thought you forgot about him until I realized you have listed as a 1st liner. Shouldn't he be listed as an elite 2nd liner? After all, your categorizing is based on THIS draft. You have Shutt listed as an elite third liner!! when he was one of coach Bowman's whipping boys for being overweight and slow to check.

Shut belongs then in one of these two categories:

BA 2nd line LW:
Northcott
Sedin
Lewis
Ga. Roberts
Martin

Weak 2nd line LW:
Ramsay
Tonelli
Pulford
Go. Roberts
Propp

Elite 3rd line LW:
Prentice
Shutt
Pavelich
Gottselig
Holik
Shutt ain't no elite 3rd liner and Tikkanen should be!
 

Sprague Cleghorn

User Registered
Aug 14, 2013
3,521
508
Edmonton, KY
Sprague, interesting arrangement.

Kharlamov might belong among those you list as 'above average' instead of those you have as 'elite', at least in some people's eyes. And Bucyk might move down to join:



And I was looking for our 2nd liner Phillips and thought you forgot about him until I realized you have listed as a 1st liner. Shouldn't he be listed as an elite 2nd liner? After all, your categorizing is based on THIS draft. You have Shutt listed as an elite third liner!! when he was one of coach Bowman's whipping boys for being overweight and slow to check.

Shut belongs then in one of these two categories:




Shutt ain't no elite 3rd liner and Tikkanen should be!

Please look at the disclaimer on my previous post about Cs.

It's funny because I'm currently working on the RW list, and I knew someone was not going to read the disclaimer on my post about Cs, so I was going to put the disclaimer again on my RW post in its full glory.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
36,210
6,884
South Korea
It still had to be said.:)

I read the disclaimer. I guess the method has faults. Every analytic tool has its weaknesses. No harm pointing out some glaring ones!

That said, instead of going down draft order (ignoring steals and reaches), why not go by where the player is on each team? It would be a little better way to see value in assessing team rosters.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,264
1,656
Chicago, IL
Sprague I appreciate the effort, but I don't really understand the point of these rankings if you're just going blindly by draft order. Is it meant as a starting off point where others are supposed to reply with their revised lists? Perhaps you can explain.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

User Registered
Aug 14, 2013
3,521
508
Edmonton, KY
Disclaimer: this will be a list based on draft position ONLY. There will be no subjectivity from me, so Drinkwater is going to be grouped off as 2nd liner. It's up to you guys to personally adjust players where you see fit. Also, multi-positional players will be ranked at the position which they are listed by in the roster thread.

Elite 1st line RW:
Howe
Richard
Jagr
Lafleur
Cook

Above average 1st line RW:
Makarov
Bossy
Kurri
Conacher
Selanne

Average 1st line RW:
Bathgate
Geoffrion
Mikhailov
Hull
Iginla

Below average 1st line RW:
St. Louis
Hextall
Bure
Maltsev
Pitre

Weak 1st line RW:
Martinec
Recchi
Hossa
Kane
Neely

Elite 2nd line RW:
Alfredsson
Drillon
Fleury
Foyston
Cournoyer

AA 2nd line RW:
Dye
Broadbent
Balderis
Dillon
McDonald

Average 2nd line RW:
Heatley
Gilbert
Middleton
Palffy
Cashman

BA 2nd line RW:
Walker
Anderson
Larmer
A. Smith
Provost

Weak 2nd line RW:
Aurie
Armstrong
Rousseau
Gartner
Hodge

Elite 3rd line RW:
Taylor
Mosienko
Perry
Morris
Bondra

AA 3rd line RW:
Westfall
Bauer
Stasiuk
Watson
Bailey

Average 3rd line RW:
Mullen
Ward
Doan
Mogilny
Lemieux

BA 3rd line RW:
Nevin
Finnigan
Oatman
Demitra
Amonte

Weak 3rd line RW:
Gare
Ciccarelli
Nolan
Sloan
Graham

Elite 4th line RW:
Cleghorn
Toppazzini
Kerr
Nesterenko
Vikulov

AA 4th line RW:
Kesler
Tocchet
Russel
Leach
Ellis

Average 4th line RW:
Guerin
Curry
Verbeek
MacGregor
Litzenberger

BA 4th line RW:
Pronovost
Vaive
Stuart
Backes
Bertuzzi

Weak 4th line RW:
Randall
Paiement
O'Reilly
Skinner
Oliver
 
Last edited:

Sprague Cleghorn

User Registered
Aug 14, 2013
3,521
508
Edmonton, KY
Sprague I appreciate the effort, but I don't really understand the point of these rankings if you're just going blindly by draft order. Is it meant as a starting off point where others are supposed to reply with their revised lists? Perhaps you can explain.

Yes, it's a starting off point. Like I previously stated, I felt I've been throwing the word average around a lot in my assassinations, so I felt like a closer look to where these guys actually stack up in a 25 team draft would help me out and hopefully others. Using the draft order is simply a quick and dirty way to look at it, with the keyword being quick. If you guys want to interject on which tiers certain players are actually supposed to be in like jarek and VI, then feel free to do so.

Of course, I don't personally believe that Tommy Smith is a below average 3rd line LW (I think he's around an average 2nd line LW), it's just that that was where he was drafted. Again this is a quick way, a starting off point, as you said. I don't quite have the time right now to personally give my opinion on 300 players.
 
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King Forsberg

16 21 28 44 68 88 93
Jul 26, 2010
6,192
59
I think we're taking this a little too far. seventies rankings are just his personal opinions, and shouldn't be treated as the actual rankings.

Seventies did ask for opinions on players who he had 2 tiers off than what other may think. I know its just his opinion and I appreciate him posting that since it's a good basis for discussion.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me in June
Jun 23, 2007
76,698
4,609
Behind A Tree
So, again I ask when are we going to be doing regular season voting here? Drafting ended almost 3 weeks ago.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,561
Edmonton
So, again I ask when are we going to be doing regular season voting here? Drafting ended almost 3 weeks ago.

I think we need to call it, I'll be sending out pms and I'll find someone to collect and tally votes since it's clear people don't want to do assassinations
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,413
7,808
Regina, SK
Anyone see Robin Williams in that picture of Hunter in 70s bio??

....maybe a little.

and.... :handclap: cool! You read it! Or.... at least looked at the picture... haha.

and yeah, when take-it-easy seventies starts to wonder when we're voting.... it's probably time to vote.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
42,386
18,964
Mulberry Street
....maybe a little.

and.... :handclap: cool! You read it! Or.... at least looked at the picture... haha.

and yeah, when take-it-easy seventies starts to wonder when we're voting.... it's probably time to vote.

I did read it -- often players such as him don't have a good bio posted since a lot of GMs only care about the marquee players. So its nice to see someone put some effort into it.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,561
Edmonton
Please send your pms for regular season standings to Theokritos

Reminder PM will be sent out this evening, voting will close Friday so we can get this show on the road
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,413
7,808
Regina, SK
Bio update: I've turned 1,026 out of 1,216 photos into text, so I am 84.4% done, and all that's left are my 5 spares and the LW/C that I settled for at the end, so the meat of my roster is all accounted for. With the end clearly in sight now, I've gotta say I've surprised myself with how much work I managed to do on bios this year. I honestly didn't think I had it in me. I thought I peaked in 2011. Also, I thought I could come into this with a laissez-faire attitude and not be so gung-ho about bios, but obviously that just can't happen. It's like I always said in the years I sat out - I can't half-ass these things.

Owen Nolan: Like Tkachuk, Nolan is a player that I was already fully aware of since I was already watching hockey by his rookie season. He was always one of my favourite players on teams other than the Leafs, so it was nice to chronicle his career. A few things I wasn't aware of: 1) how disastrous his rookie season was. He was poor offensively, defensively and in the locker room. 2) his attitude wasn't great for a few seasons. He was called difficult to coach as late as 1996. However, shortly thereafter he became the fiery leader we all knew him as, and that continued right until the end. 3) He was actually, for the balance of his career, quite good defensively, particularly for a power forward, as guys like him are typically straight line players - straight to the net, straight to your bodychecking target. But he developed a defensive game almost immediately after making it to San Jose, and killed penalties frequently from 1997 onwards, including in San Jose, in Toronto, and during his post-lockout comeback. He's only a good 3rd unit option in the ATD, but just to point out how uniue this was - his career usage was 23%. Iginla, Tkachuk, LeClair, Shanahan, Ciccarelli, Neely, Verbeek, Tocchet, Stevens, Guerin, Roberts and Dineen averaged 6.8% between them, with Shanahan's 14% being the highest among them. 4) his post-lockout comeback (and that's the right term for it, considering he hadn't played an NHL game in 31 months) was pretty damned impressive. Considering the time elapsed, and the fact that he was 34-38, scored over half a point per game, played a power game, was lauded for his leadership, and was part of successful penalty killing units, it definitely added to his career value and legacy. Still, I picked him over Rick Tocchet and I'm not even sure I should have.

Rick Tocchet: This guy came as advertised. I only remember the last 2/3 of his career, but it's like I remember - the guy was a 10/10 physically. He was an incredibly hard worker, and one of the few best bodycheckers and fighters in the game. As expected, scouting reports talked about him in terms that put him in the handful of elites in this regard. Tocchet did have that 100 point season in 1993, but his best seasons as an individual were in 1989, 1990 and 1991 when he was clearly Philadelphia's best all-around forward and even strength scorer. Needing to fill the 3rd line RW spot with a tough player, I went back and forth on Tocchet and Nolan before settling on Nolan after being assured his defense was better. This turned out to be correct, and Nolan has the superior VsX, but this is entirely due to being healthier and being better on the PP. Tocchet was by far the better even strength scorer and offense creator. After doing this bio, there's a small part of me that wants to swap Tocchet with Balderis, in order to ensure I have one physically dominant player on each line.

Dale Hunter: Hunter was one of those guys who was everything. There aren't many guys like this. He could best be described as a smaller, less speedy, wannabe Mark Messier. Or a smaller, more talented Mel Bridgman. Mean, dirty guys who could check, kill penalties, lead, and win psychological battles. I love looking at pictures of Hunter as a player. He always looks like he's guilty of something and proud of it... or he's guilty of something and not proud of it! I remember Hunter's Washington career very well, and when I was a maturing hockey fan he was just concluding his excellent prime, but as good as he was in Washington, he was outstanding in Quebec. He was an absolutely essential piece to that team, an unsung hero who balanced out the lineup, showed up to work every day, killed penalties, intimidated, and scored clutch goals. Dale Hunter, Whatta guy.

Carol Vadnais. Vadnais' career is now effectively chronicled, but there's little reason to believe he was any different a player than we already thought. My writeup when drafting him was pretty accurate. He was clearly more valuable offensively than defensively. That said, I think he was a much better player than other defensemen selected around the same time. His toughness tends to go unappreciated. He was legitimate #1 defenseman for pretty much the entirety of the 1970s, but average at best, bottom end at worst. And the thing is, elite #1 defensemen go up against the best players and excel, while the mediocre ones go up against the best players and struggle. He was the latter. He was an embarrassment of riches as Boston's #2 but a little out of his depth as the do-it-all #1 on the Seals and Rangers. If all the talent in the NHL was evenly distributed, Vadnais would have had a solid career as an average #1 defenseman on an average team, but instead it was split into extremes - outstanding #2 on an excellent team, and overworked #1 on poor teams. A special teams specialist and all-round minute muncher, he is a better version of Rob Ramage.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,264
1,656
Chicago, IL
Just voted, there were some VERY tough decisions to be made. I hope we get a lot of in depth comparisons during the playoffs, especially with the lack of participation in assassinations this year (myself included), because I could've gone either way on a lot of my rankings.
 

King Forsberg

16 21 28 44 68 88 93
Jul 26, 2010
6,192
59
I'll finish up my voting shortly. To echo what others have said, it's so tough to find the worst teams this year.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me in June
Jun 23, 2007
76,698
4,609
Behind A Tree
Will be voting tomorrow, going to be interesting to see the results. Lots of great drafting this year by everyone.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,667
5,071
If I'm informed correctly, voting is supposed to end today (Friday). So far I've got ballots from: broad, Dreakmur, Hawkey Town 18, MadArcand, monster_bertuzzi, Namba 17, rmartin65, Sprague Cleghorn, tinyzombies.
 

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