ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[Hawkey Town 18]

Some other candidates to round out the top 10...

Bob Pulford (he's a HHOfer because of his defensive ability and playoffs right?)

Marty Pavelich (5 consecutive retro Selke's and shadowed the Rocket)



I'm sure there's more, these were just the first to come to mind

 

[jarek]

Some other candidates to round out the top 10...

Bob Pulford (he's a HHOfer because of his defensive ability and playoffs right?)

Marty Pavelich (5 consecutive retro Selke's and shadowed the Rocket)



I'm sure there's more, these were just the first to come to mind

Joe Klukay, Nick Metz.

On an off-topic note, the Boyle trade managed to bring HFBoards to its knees.. wow. That's sad.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm not much of a fan of Pavelich Klukay and Metz from a quotes/praise standpoint. Those three are just the ATD "Usual suspects" for defensive forwards based on, at least initially, Ultimate Hockey's retro selkes.

Not saying they aren't good, but I wouldn't just "selke count" them into a top-10.

Let's say Laprade is 10th. From there if I was to round out a top-20 I know I'd have Richard, Pulford, Peca and Lehtinen. Other than that it starts to get tricky. The usual suspects very well could be in that range.

 

[tony d]

Time to review recent picks:

Zach Parise: Nice pick, was a guy on my radar for sure. Seems to be a guy that can do it all. Will be a good fit with Bathgate and Ullman.

Red Sullivan: Once again it was between Sanderson and Sullivan for me with my last pick. He's a good finish to your centre group.

Reggie Leach: Good pick who'll add scoring your bottom 6. Some advice here but maybe adding a defensive forward or 2 could help your team.

Vitaly Davydov: Davydov adds to a pretty good pk group for your team, I gave him a passing glance, myself.

Ron Ellis: First off hoping monster gets his computer issues fixed. He's one of the better gm's here. Ellis is a good pick and is someone I've had my eye on in drafts past.

Steve Kasper: Another good pick, we have a lot of defensive minded centres in our division, Kasper will add to that in a big way.

Edgar Laprade: Good pick, one of the better bottom 6 players, quick ? though are you planning on keeping Kovalchuk on your 3rd line? He's a talented player but moreso for a top 6 role not bottom 6.

Fleming Mackell: Decent pick for a bottom 6 role. Also much to my surprise he has 63 points in 80 career playoffs, shows he had ability to score, good pick.

Dale Hunter: Another good pick. There are some who say that when Quebec traded him in the 80's that started a downward trend for them, one from which they barely recovered. Tough guy as well. Him and Tocchet on your 4th line are going to be quite nasty to go vs.

Anyway those are my thoughts on recent picks. As to trade deadline and site issues; I suggest still drafting on the day but no penalization if someone misses their clock and no skipping either.

 

[rmartin65]

Ugh... I can't seem to find a better fit for my team, but I have already had this player as well. I had an outside the box idea, but in the end, just couldn't justify it.

The Miami Screaming Eagles welcome back Bill Guerin, RW

Guerin completes my 3rd line, bringing great even strength goal scoring (4 times top 10), physicality, and respectable defense. He was recognized as a second team All Star in 2001/2002.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm not much of a fan of Pavelich Klukay and Metz from a quotes/praise standpoint. Those three are just the ATD "Usual suspects" for defensive forwards based on, at least initially, Ultimate Hockey's retro selkes.

Not saying they aren't good, but I wouldn't just "selke count" them into a top-10.

Let's say Laprade is 10th. From there if I was to round out a top-20 I know I'd have Richard, Pulford, Peca and Lehtinen. Other than that it starts to get tricky. The usual suspects very well could be in that range.

What makes Laprade better than Pit Lepine?


Other candidates for the top 20...

Sergei Fedorov

Milt Schmidt

Datsyuk - a tough one to rank, he has an outstanding Selke record, but not a PKer and not really a shadower either. Definitely a different kind of defensive player from the usual suspects, but that doesn't mean he should not be considered. (In the sake of full disclosure, I did draft Datsyuk this year).

 

[jarek]

I'm not much of a fan of Pavelich Klukay and Metz from a quotes/praise standpoint. Those three are just the ATD "Usual suspects" for defensive forwards based on, at least initially, Ultimate Hockey's retro selkes.

Not saying they aren't good, but I wouldn't just "selke count" them into a top-10.

Let's say Laprade is 10th. From there if I was to round out a top-20 I know I'd have Richard, Pulford, Peca and Lehtinen. Other than that it starts to get tricky. The usual suspects very well could be in that range.

Metz-Klukay was one of the most celebrated PK duos of all time, although granted it was only for a few seasons.

Klukay continued to be one of the best PK and defensive players of his era, and he was tasked with stopping Richard and Howe during his days, which by all accounts he was fairly successful at.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I'm happy to select C/RW, Claude Giroux to replace Rousseau.

 

[jarek]

I'm happy to select C/RW, Claude Giroux to replace Rousseau.

As much as I love Stamkos as a winger, I feel the exact opposite with Giroux. His game is much more suited to playing C, and I do hope you keep him there.

I also really hope you have a place for him on your PP, as he's scored over 40% of his points on the PP.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

As much as I love Stamkos as a winger, I feel the exact opposite with Giroux. His game is much more suited to playing C, and I do hope you keep him there.

He finished 3rd, and 5th in AST voting at RW. That seems good enough for me.

And yes, he will be playing on my 2nd PP unit, manning the point like he does in real life.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

I'm happy to select C/RW, Claude Giroux to replace Rousseau.

Giroux is a player i was hoping to add as a spare later. Great playmaker who has developed a good two way game. Very good on faceoffs, elite pp qb from the left halfwall. His scoring has gone down at even strength as his team has declined the last few years but his pp production is great. If used on PK he's got good anticipation and faceoff abilities as well.

 

[jarek]

He finished 3rd, and 5th in AST voting at RW. That seems good enough for me.

This argument was had last ATD. I would strongly recommend you go over it. Here's a link to where it started: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=113923537#post113923537

This statement by TDMM sums up my thoughts on the matter:

I don't think it was that Giroux was bad at RW, so much as be was a lot better at C. He took the next step in 2011-12, which corresponds exactly to him becoming a full time C.

Fortunately, Giroux is a very obvious man to replace Ted Kennedy on the PP for you. According to the numbers I have, Kennedy scored only 53 of his 560 career points on the PP, 34 of them coming in his first 3 seasons. He shouldn't be anywhere remotely close to a PP unit at any cost.

EDIT: My comment about Kennedy's PP scoring only accounts for his post-1953 seasons, which was near the end of his career. My bad!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Floyd Curry, RW

 

[jarek]

I have the following for Giroux's AST placements at RW:

3rd* (2012), 5th (2011), 15th (2013)

He also shows up at 3rd for centers in 2012. That seems very, very strange to me. I would like to look into this in more depth. Maybe KF can shed some light on it.

 

[jarek]

Floyd Curry, RW

Nice pick, one of the best PK'ers left.

 

[jarek]

I feel like we went over this either last year or the year before...and I don't remember how exactly it unfolded, but I want to say the end result was Giroux should only be played at Center.

It would be worth it to do some digging on this.

It started here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=113923537#post113923537

We had a very long discussion about the merits of Giroux at center vs. right wing. I'll re-read it and see what the conclusion was.

KF had this to say via PM with 87and71:

He was a winger in 09 when he came up to finish the season. 09-10 was mostly a center playing with xxx and xxxx. At times he'd play wing with xxxxxx. 2011 he was on xxxxxx wing most of the time. Then 2012 on he's been a center. I've been contemplating picking him with my next pick if he's there. There's a few physical guys I want but if your gonna pick him you're getting an asset. He's a good player on the PP and the PK here.

A word from BillyShoe via RS:

I really don't get why you call for era bias so often when a modern player you picked gets criticized for something. Joe Malone getting slotted at LW led to a discussion earlier. You even brought up Zetterberg...did you fall victim to this era bias a few minutes ago?

The word, per Billy, on this board has been that Giroux at a RW was a sham. So that's going to be why a criticism of the idea of Giroux at RW gets traction. Now that you're citing King Forsberg's recollections people are listening.

You still can't get around people who are overly rigid about this topic, but you citing Zetterberg got me wondering what I actually think about the topic.

KF giving a much more fleshed out take on it:

Looks like I'm being called upon here. Giroux played wing most of the time when he first came up in 09. The Flyers top 6 was stacked that year and stayed the same for almost the whole season. Giroux started off playing with guys like Darroll Powe and Arron Asham. (Nobodys drafting these guys) in 2010 Giroux played some center between Asham and XXX. At this point the Flyers had three experienced scoring centers and a solid fourth line center so Giroux was shifted to wing up and down the lineup. In he playoffs that year is when Giroux became who he is today. The Flyers lost a couple of top 6 players that year and Giroux filled in on the wing and back at center when the team was fully healthy.

2011, Giroux's breakout year, he played almost the whole season at wing. You can look at the Flyers roster and see who the centers were. Giroux played RW with 2 of the 3. Sometimes it was more of a checking role in the top 6 and other times it was because he was the teams best playmaker so he played with the best goalscorer who COULDN'T play wing. The 2011 playoffs Giroux was still on the wing and led the team in scoring like he did in the regular season.

After that he's played center because of how valuable he is at BOTH ends of the ice. after the Flyers cleared house he was THE guy. He's not big but he is a great presence on D.

Special Teams

Giroux might be the best power play player in the league today. Since 2012 the Flyers have had pretty much the same set up and Giroux runs all to it from the half wall. So many times you can see him use his hands and stick to literally direct traffic and make sure everyone is in position.

The PK is where Giroux excels as well. 2009 through 2011 he played with another talented PKer and the tandem was a SHG machine. A real joy to watch. 2012 through today Giroux isnt used as much but it's not because he can't. He'll still come on to take the face off since he's incredible at that too.

Overall Giroux is much better at center because he'll get the puck more to make plays. But Giroux turned into a star while playing on the wing (2010 playoffs through 2011 playoffs) If the Flyers would have did things differently then maybe Giroux stays on the wing longer. I have no doubt he'd still be a star. He's obviously better at center here on the wing he can still be very effective as a secondary checker and as a scorer. I don't want to overstate it but Giroux has incredible hockey IQ.

I typed this on my phone so apologies for any spelling mistakes.

Alright, I'm going to tentatively say that I'm fine with Giroux at RW but I will penalize it. I have no doubt Giroux would be a great player at W, just as he is at C, but that's not what actually happened so he won't get full marks for it from me. There's also that unlike Stamkos, I believe Giroux's game is just better suited for C. He isn't a stationary guy like Stamkos who finds an open spot to fire the puck from. He's a very active player who makes things happen with his playmaking and stick handling. In order to do that he needs the open space that playing at C provides.

He's also a great faceoff guy, so I really don't know why you'd even want him playing the RW. Stick him at C, throw him on the second power play, and just grab another guy to play RW.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

I have the following for Giroux's AST placements at RW:

3rd* (2012), 5th (2011), 15th (2013)

He also shows up at 3rd for centers in 2012. That seems very, very strange to me. I would like to look into this in more depth. Maybe KF can shed some light on it.

Ive watched Giroux's whole career. He did not play RW in 2012 or 2013. 2011, he played center as well with xxx on his wing at times. Even in 2010 during the cup run, he was our 3rd line center. He only played wing when he was in rookie status and in juniors.

Based on KingForsbergs post above, he may have played some RW in 2011 as well actually, more than Center. But he's definitely a center. I would only put him at RW if you have a clearly better center on his line

 

[jarek]

Ive watched Giroux's whole career. He did not play RW in 2012 or 2013. 2011, he played center as well with Jeff Carter on his wing at times. Even in 2010 during the cup run, he was our 3rd line center. He only played wing when he was in rookie status and in juniors.

So as I suspected his AS record at RW is just 5th, and 15th. Which basically just boils down to a 5th place finish since he finished 8th at center the year he placed 15th at RW.

This is much less to go on than, say, a Joe Malone, and even Joe Malone gets resistance when moved to the wing.

Sprague, I'd really prefer to see Giroux at C on your team. There are a ton of good RW's left that can compliment him. It would be such a shame to waste his greatest assets by throwing him on the wing.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nice pick, one of the best PK'ers left.

Good PKer known for shadowing top left wings to a usable degree, I needed someone else to shoulder some PK minutes since I have Richard and Prentice taking a few minutes a piece.

Shadrin
Curry
Armstrong
XXX
Richard
Prentice

Is at a reasonable group of PKers backed by an excellent set of D, and none are going to be heavily penalized so these 5 (+xxx) should be able to cover the Maroon's PKing needs well

 

[chaosrevolver]

Westfall prob falls into the same argument that 70s has against some of those guys but I imagine he has to somewhat be in the discussion.

 

[jarek]

Westfall prob falls into the same argument that 70s has against some of those guys but I imagine he has to somewhat be in the discussion.

To be honest, I largely agree with the top-9 group that seventies put forward. After that, it's a real toss up. Guys like Laprade have the reputation and HHoF nod going for them, guys like Klukay, Metz, Pavelich and Leswick have the same thing to a lesser degree, but they have the (dis?)advantage of having played against the two best RWs of all time, and still others like Jarvis, Kasper, Peca, Lehtinen, etc. have the reputation going for them, but additionally they have strong Selke records to back it up AND quantifiable PK stats that are greatly in their favour.

For me, it's very much of a case of deciding which side you want to go with your steak.

Henri Richard is a weird one for me. I'm not that familiar with him but he never struck me as a guy used specifically to shut down the opposition's best. He struck me more as a guy used closer to the role of say a Larionov or Fedorov - an elite defensive conscience for a scoring line.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think TDMM's bio makes it clear that he is quite effective as a defensive player

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30659601&postcount=34

 

[jarek]

I think TDMM's bio makes it clear that he is quite effective as a defensive player

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30659601&postcount=34

How was he deployed?

 

[ResilientBeast]

How was he deployed?

Anecdotally against the opposing teams best players, there is a quote in there about how Richard was told to cover Bobby Clarke and he neutralized him

 

[jarek]

Anecdotally against the opposing teams best players, there is a quote in there about how Richard was told to cover Bobby Clarke and he neutralized him

Yikes. I'm sorry I ever questioned this.

Reading just a few passages in the bio told me all I needed to know.