ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[rmartin65]

I think "quite effectively" is a rather glowing phrase.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think I know who you're talking about.

Without revealing too much, I was not pleased with the fit with Bathgate, and putting a soft, one-way player on that line would have made it rather exploitable in this smaller league.

There was one other reason I didn't like the idea, but revealing that would give it away entirely.

Oh was he the one who suggested that player?

 

[jarek]

I think "quite effectively" is a rather glowing phrase.

One quote only, from a source that has a vested interest in pimping that particular player.

I concur that he was a good penalty killer though.

How does he compare with the other great PK'ers of the era?

Oh was he the one who suggested that player?

No. I thought about it myself. Someone else brought up the concern to me about the fit with Bathgate and in the end, I agreed.

 

[Dreakmur]

How good was he as a penalty killer anyways? The current bio available on HFBoards only has a couple of references to him as a penalty killer, and not in the glowing sense.

In the 1958 Coaches' poll, Sullivan was voted the best defensive forward and hardest worker. He was also one of the "honourable mentions" for best penalty killer.

 

[jarek]

In the 1958 Coaches' poll, Sullivan was voted the best defensive forward and hardest worker. He was also one of the "honourable mentions" for best penalty killer.

So where would this put Sullivan in the PK/defensive hierarchy?

 

[VanIslander]

So where would this put Sullivan in the PK/defensive hierarchy?

Above average?

Let's not split hairs.

 

[jarek]

Above average?

Let's not split hairs.

I can live with that.

 

[Dreakmur]

Above average?

Let's not split hairs.

Above average in what group? Surely you can't mean among all players drafted. He'd be among the elite there.

Just among 1st unit PKers? He's probably at the low end of that group.

 

[jarek]

Above average in what group? Surely you can't mean among all players drafted. He'd be among the elite there.

Just among 1st unit PKers? He's probably at the low end of that group.

I don't think I'd consider Red Sullivan elite in this ATD as a defensive player or PK'er. I'd need to see more to justify that position.

It's entirely possible that he is but it's simply unknown at the moment because not enough has been dug up on him.

 

[VanIslander]

jarek,.... you sure know how to pivot....
We've had this conversation before. Too bad no one put info on Red into a bio. There's a lot out there, as we've seen before. For now, apparently, he's a question mark. The guy who drafted him should assemble info on him. He definitely belongs in this draft, but needs to be shown to be.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

There's some players still on the board that tempted me, but I'm going to stick with a player that can fill a need for the Bankers. I like the fact this player can fill any forward position, He's gritty with decent playmaking/offensive skills, He's a good defensive forward who can hopefully provide some penalty-killing and decent back-checking for Pittsburgh.

The Pittsburgh Bankers select F Rusty Crawford

 

[ResilientBeast]

There's some players still on the board that tempted me, but I'm going to stick with a player that can fill a need for the Bankers. I like the fact this player can fill any forward position, He's gritty with decent playmaking/offensive skills, He's a good defensive forward who can hopefully provide some penalty-killing and decent back-checking for Pittsburgh.

The Pittsburgh Bankers select F Rusty Crawford

He's already been taken

 

[ResilientBeast]

Iceman list picks, Vitaly Davydov, D

 

[tony d]

To help the argument for Sullivan, it was between him and Sanderson for me when I decided to go for a defensively minded 4th line centre. Guy seemed to be quite the agitator and a good special teams player for the Rangers.

 

[jarek]

Iceman list picks, Vitaly Davydov, D

Best defenseman on the board for my money.

 

[rmartin65]

Best defenseman on the board for my money.

Agreed. I almost drafted him (Davydov) instead of Cook to go alongside Rafalski, but in the end I couldn't have a pairing that small.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't think I'd consider Red Sullivan elite in this ATD as a defensive player or PK'er. I'd need to see more to justify that position.

It's entirely possible that he is but it's simply unknown at the moment because not enough has been dug up on him.

That coaches poll was a HUGE find for Sullivan.

How many players have been voted the best defensive player in the league by the GMs?

 

[jarek]

That coaches poll was a HUGE find for Sullivan.

How many players have been voted the best defensive player in the league by the GMs?

I don't know. I guess we'd have to go through that entire list and see how many times it comes up.

That Bobby Clarke was named best defensive forward only once, and best penalty killer just twice, is quite telling however. Sullivan being named the best defensive forward at all is indeed quite huge for him.

That being said, how many guys selected ahead of him for a defensive role can you honestly say aren't better than him at that skill?

I suppose in doing so we can also find out just how many defensive kind of guys have already been selected. Maybe there haven't been as many as I thought.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't know. I guess we'd have to go through that entire list and see how many times it comes up.

That Bobby Clarke was named best defensive forward only once, and best penalty killer just twice, is quite telling however. Sullivan being named the best defensive forward at all is indeed quite huge for him.

That being said, how many guys selected ahead of him for a defensive role can you honestly say aren't better than him at that skill?

I suppose in doing so we can also find out just how many defensive kind of guys have already been selected. Maybe there haven't been as many as I thought.

In terms of pure defense, I think I would have Sullivan ahead of guys like Pit Lepine, Ken Mosdell, Dave Poulin, and XXX. Certainly a better defensive player than Phil Goyette and Don McKenney, though they clearly have more all-around games.

 

[seventieslord]

I missed that Jean-Guy Talbot was drafted. He fell pretty hard and I had started to get interested in him at the 440 or 447 spot. I actually didn't have much of an idea of what kind of player he was, so I took a closer look and found that he was, above all, a PK specialist.

- In Montreal, it is well documented that he played forward on the PK regularly for years, along with another regular defenseman. Before 1964, no PK stats exist but we know Montreal was pretty much the best at everything between '55 and '63. His usage is backed up by a large number of SH points in this period.
- From '64 to '67, Talbot's piling up of SHP continued, including a career high 8 one season. During this time, Montreal's PK was 6% better than the league average (which is better than the same score post-expansion IMO).
- From '68 to '70, Talbot was 36-38 years old and went to the Finals three times with the Blues. he was only their #4 defenseman overall, but was still used very regularly on the PK - 38%, for a team that was only 2% worse than average.
- As a side note, when he retired in 1970, Talbot was 3rd all-time in NHL playoff games!

With Joe Hall currently my 4th best option for the PK, I didn't need an upgrade, but it would have been nice to get a guy with a more substantiated record of both high usage and strong success.

 

[jarek]

I missed that Jean-Guy Talbot was drafted. He fell pretty hard and I had started to get interested in him at the 440 or 447 spot. I actually didn't have much of an idea of what kind of player he was, so I took a closer look and found that he was, above all, a PK specialist.

- In Montreal, it is well documented that he played forward on the PK regularly for years, along with another regular defenseman. Before 1964, no PK stats exist but we know Montreal was pretty much the best at everything between '55 and '63. His usage is backed up by a large number of SH points in this period.
- From '64 to '67, Talbot's piling up of SHP continued, including a career high 8 one season. During this time, Montreal's PK was 6% better than the league average (which is better than the same score post-expansion IMO).
- From '68 to '70, Talbot was 36-38 years old and went to the Finals three times with the Blues. he was only their #4 defenseman overall, but was still used very regularly on the PK - 38%, for a team that was only 2% worse than average.
- As a side note, when he retired in 1970, Talbot was 3rd all-time in NHL playoff games!

With Joe Hall currently my 4th best option for the PK, I didn't need an upgrade, but it would have been nice to get a guy with a more substantiated record of both high usage and strong success.

So if Talbot is to be used on the PK, should it be as a forward?

I had always thought he was some kind of offensive specialist (there's something about the "Guys" that does this to me..), but it seems he was far more well rounded than that.

 

[seventieslord]

So if Talbot is to be used on the PK, should it be as a forward?

I had always thought he was some kind of offensive specialist (there's something about the "Guys" that does this to me..), but it seems he was far more well rounded than that.

I'd say putting him there as a forward is a legitimate option, yes. But I wouldn't say he can't be there as a defenseman too.

His Defense VsX is ok, he'd be a #4 PP guy on most teams. I'm not sure I'd pigeonhole him as any kind of specialist, but if I did, it wouldn't be an offensive one.

 

[jarek]

So monster_bertuzzi PM'd me earlier saying he was having serious difficulties with his computer, and has authorized either me or Sturminator to make picks in his stead until he can get things sorted.

I'd much prefer Sturminator does this, as there would be no conflict of interest issues. I am happy to forward the PM exchange to someone, as well as to Sturminator for proof of this if necessary.

 

[Sturminator]

OK, in order to keep the draft moving, I'll make the easy and obvious pick here to round out Bert's 3rd line. The Vancouver Millionaires select Ron Ellis, RW. I will PM Sprague.

 

[jarek]

OK, in order to keep the draft moving, I'll make the easy and obvious pick here to round out Bert's 3rd line. The Vancouver Millionaires select Ron Ellis, RW. I will PM Sprague.

That is actually a stellar as hell pick. Holik - Keats - Ellis. You won't get much from Ellis on special teams but he's a hell of a player at ES.

I actually thought about it a while ago to throw Ellis on my 3rd line RW with Mayorov on the left.

He's also another guy that doesn't have a proper bio in the ATD section.