ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[ResilientBeast]

On the subject of players who should go 300 spots higher, I can see Skinner being a third liner here. One of the things I was surprised to learn about him was how adept he was at scooping up rebounds and being what we'd consider a "net presence". He was noted to be the best of his time at it.

As a huge proponent of PCHA players....Skinner as third liner? No way all of his finishes of note come in split leagues so assuming that half of the talent was in each league and arbitrarily doubling his finishes to suggest half the talent was in the PCHA his points finishes become 10, 12, 12, 24 and that's all.

Being a second team all star during perhaps the weakest period of the PCHA's existence at one of the weakest positions isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

 

[jarek]

Yes and no. There were not shutdown lines as we know them today, but there absolutely were players who shadowed a star at the expense of offense as they would do now. In those instances, their linemates took on the brunt of the scoring.

I've honestly never heard of this before for that time period.

Skinner is that rare breed who appears to have been both. His playing weight was often mentioned in contemporary accounts, but for all the flak it earned him, that fact didn't seem to impede his ability to skate or check at a high level. On top of that, he was a consistent scorer.

On the subject of players who should go 300 spots higher, I can see Skinner being a third liner here. One of the things I was surprised to learn about him was how adept he was at scooping up rebounds and being what we'd consider a "net presence". He was noted to be the best of his time at it.

I'm very interested to see what you have on him.

A great scorer, however, he is not. In his very best scoring years using Dreakmur's consolidation study, he comes out with VsX scores of 49.3 (1919), 57.6 (1920), 74.5 (1921).

 

[tony d]

Good weekend for picks guys with 28 picks made, here is my review of them all:

Ed Giacomin: He will be a decent backup for your team and to Bower but there were a few better backups than him available when you picked him.

Barry Trotz: Sort of figured you may go with Trotz. Guy's been a good coach and is doing a good job with Washington.I figure he'll go higher next year should he win a Cup this year in real life.

Roberto Luongo: One of the backups better than Giacomin, seems to be easy going so he may not mind backup duty for your team.

Brad Richards: Good 1st spare for your team, you have a lot of good offensive centres on your team but it's always good to have a guy like Brad Richards on your team.

Joe Pavelski: Another good spare for your team, can play both centre and right wing which is always good coming off the bench.

Rejean Houle: The first ever 1st overall pick in the modern NHL draft (1969 and up), he was a solid player, looks like he'll be a spare for your team.

Tom Barrasso: A good goalie, usually one of the better backups in this league. Just keep him away from the media. Smart pick though surrounding him with Lemieux, Bob Johnson, Coffey and Ron Francis.

Curtis Joseph: One of my favorite goalies ever. I got to think if he was still there at 543 I may have looked at him. Given Parent's peak was a bit short, giving him a good backup like Cujo may be a good idea.

Todd Bertuzzi: Before settling on Mckenzie I was strongly considering Bertuzzi (I actually considered Bertuzzi when I went with Sutter). Guy was a bit rough around the edges but there was a time he was the pre eminent power forward in hockey.

John Mckenzie: My pick, glad to get him. Good way to finish my roster, adds even more peskiness to my lineup, him and Lemieux in my bottom 6 should be "fun" for opposing teams.

John Vanbiesbrouck: Beezer is up there with a few other guys as one of the best backups here. Given you have a weak starter in Tiny Thompson this pick makes all the sense in the world.

Tim Thomas: I'm not as big on Tim Thomas as others are but he should be fine given you have King Henrik as your #1. I also think he'll go to the White House should you win this this year.

Rogie Vachon: Sturm was right you got a great backup here, if this draft got to 28-30 teams again I'd be quite comfortable with Vachon as a #1 goalie. He's playing with Belfour though and Belfour didn't always like his backups so some warning there.

Ken Randall: Not to familiar with him but reading his bio he seems to be well rounded so good pick for you there.

Eduard Ivanov: The runner up for me when I went with Subban, reading up on him there seemed to be a little bit of negativity towards him. You have him as a spare so he should be fine in that role.

Wilf Paiement: Had him last year, really liked the pick, good pick for you. Some advice on your team. I'd put Lehtinen and Poulin together on a line at even strength to form a good 2/3 checking line.

Alex Tanguay: Recently retired, he's a guy I've always liked, very good playmaking winger. Not sure how much goal scoring he'll get out of Bobby Holik or Ryan Kesler though.

Mike Liut: Another good backup goalie in my division. I think Durnan/Liut's going to be one of the better goalie duos in the league this year.

Murray Oliver: Didn't go in the ATD last year but from what I've read on him he seems like a good bottom 6 player here.

Kris Letang: Good pick broad, Letang is a good #7 defenseman here and the familiarity would be there with Crosby. Injuries are a concern with him though.

Doug Weight: Good pick, going to give your team some good playmaking off of the bench.

Dave Trottier: Had him last year, liked what I had, he's on your bench but he should be able to provide some adequate penalty killing off the bench for your team.

Percy LeSueur: Not a bad pick but I ? why you'd go backup goalie when you have Hasek, who may be the best goalie here. Your team isn't weak per se but there were a few bench spots I would have filled before I went backup goalie.

Yuri Lyapkin: Decent pick for your team, a good offensive partner at even strength for the more defensive Lowe.

Nikolai Sologubov: Not a guy I'm overly familiar with and he dropped 93 spots this year but he should be fine as a #6 this year.

Jerry Korab: Another rough customer on your defense. Though this makes sense. He'll probably be an extra so if Ulf goes out Korab can slide right in.

Albert Leduc: A good pick in his own right but given the injury prone Hartsburg is his partner it makes sense to give Hartsburg a good defenseman who will play rough next to him at even strength.

Terry O'reilly: A good pick and a guy I gave a passing glance too. Won't be as defensive as Gainey or Toews on his line but still is a guy who won't take no liberties.

Anyway those are my thoughts on recent picks.

 

[VanIslander]

The Invincibles select Red Berenson, the center and sometimes left winger who decided to go the college route against the advice of the Habs and became a two-time NCAA all-star and championship tourney all star and then joined the Habs as the first college player to make the jump to the NHL. He also helped Canada win the world championships before he began his 17-year NHL career. Over the span of his first 7 years (1968 to 1974) "The Red Baron" was top-15 in NHL goals, shots and game winners, going to the NHL all-star game based on merit five times over that stretch and was a Hart trophy finalist as well. Bowman trained him and iced him a lot and three times they went to the Stanley Cup Finals. Bowman later hired Berenson to help him coach in Buffalo. It's safe to say Berenson was one of Bowman's favs.

...a fine sportsman who could check or score equally well depending on the situation. Along the way he registered seven 20 goal seasons and played on one Stanley Cup championship team in Montreal... speed and skill... [Blues] coach Scotty Bowman turned him into a true workhorse, playing him 35 to 40 minutes a game, including plenty of time with both specialty teams...

 

[MadArcand]

Whalers select Patrick Sharp, F

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

To replace Giroux at RW, I'll pick RW Harry Oliver. He is good defensively, has a vsx of around 75 according to seventies' pre-1927 vsx method (which would put him in the top-100 seven year vsx scores), and he was one of the premier playoff performers of his era.

His speed, good defence and his ability to work in "combination" plays makes him an ideal RW to play with Colville and Nash.

 

[Sturminator]

So Oliver is your guy, eh? Ok.

Looking forward to seeing what new information you've got on his career.

 

[jarek]

To replace Giroux at RW, I'll pick RW Harry Oliver. He is good defensively, has a vsx of around 75 according to seventies' pre-1927 vsx method (which would put him in the top-100 seven year vsx scores), and he was one of the premier playoff performers of his era.

His speed, good defence and his ability to work in "combination" plays makes him an ideal RW to play with Colville and Nash.

One danger of calling his score a top-100 score is that it ignores that there are a lot of other guys who would have much higher scores than him that also aren't on that list. Cyclone Taylor, for example.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

One danger of calling his score a top-100 score is that it ignores that there are a lot of other guys who would have much higher scores than him that also aren't on that list. Cyclone Taylor, for example.

I believe his score puts him in the mid 70s on HO's 2016 list. Youre right that there are guys like Taylor, Lalonde, Makarov, Nighbor etc. that would come out ahead of him if the list were to include those players too. That's why I said top 100, and not top 75. I dont think there are 25+ non NHL or pre-1927 NHL players that are going to bump him out.

 

[jarek]

OK I'll take Cully Wilson, RW.

If he were around today he'd probably look something like this:

 

[895]

Gaye Stewart

I'm on my phone can someone please next please?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I haven't had time to look further into Sturm's comments about Murray Oliver's PKing, so this guy might end up as our starting 4th line center or might be a spare. A guy who has a good PKing record for good PK teams, and somewhat surprisingly about the same ES scoring as Ryan Kesler (although this is more of a knock against Kesler than a plus for Sutter).

The Chicago Shamrocks select Brent Sutter, C


Est SH TOI per game placement among forwards on his team
84: 6
85: 3
86: 3
87: 2
88: 1
89: 3
90: 1
91: 2
-traded to Chicago-
92: 4
93: 3
94: 1
95: 1
96: 1
97: 7

 

[BenchBrawl]

Iceman listpicks Vincent Lecavalier, C

pm sent to monster_bertuzzi.

 

[VanIslander]

The Chicago Shamrocks select Brent Sutter, C

Est SH TOI per game placement among forwards on his team
87: 2
88: 1
90: 1
91: 2
-traded to Chicago-
94: 1
95: 1
96: 1
97: 7

After the dynasty years?

And how effective was the penalty killing for the teams those years?! The top pair of forwards on a PK unit that is below average could just indicate the team didn't have quality penalty killers!

Ice time in and of itself is a misleading stat. It has to be considered in the right context.

 

[jarek]

After the dynasty years?

And how effective was the penalty killing for the teams those years?! The top pair of forwards on a PK unit that is below average could just indicate the team didn't have quality penalty killers!

Ice time in and of itself is a misleading stat. It has to be considered in the right context.

Brent PK'd 31% of the time for units 4% above average.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

After the dynasty years?

And how effective was the penalty killing for the teams those years?! The top pair of forwards on a PK unit that is below average could just indicate the team didn't have quality penalty killers!

Ice time in and of itself is a misleading stat. It has to be considered in the right context.

Here is the updated list with team PK rank included after his TOI rank...

Est SH TOI per game placement among forwards on his team
84: 6 - 4th
85: 3* - 1st (one guy ahead of him only played 29 games this season)
86: 3 - 9th
87: 2 - 13th
88: 1 - 18th
89: 3 - 20th
90: 1 - 16th
91: 2 - 17th
-traded to Chicago-
92: 4* - 2nd
93: 3 - 3rd
94: 1 - 5th
95: 1 - 9th
96: 1 - 3rd
97: 7 - 11th

*Please note that I have changed Sutter's rank in the 1992 season from a 5th to a 4th as one guy ahead of Sutter only played 11 games. I have also made a note about the 1985 season, but did not change Sutter's rank.


Summary
Sutter's teams were in the bottom half of the league his last 5 years with the Islanders, but they had a couple good years before that and his contributions in Chicago are to very good PK's. In total he has the 7 bolded seasons playing significant PK time for teams that were in the top half of the league, 5 of which were in the top 5 in the league. IMO this is enough to be a 2nd unit PKer in the ATD.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Selecting Alex Pietrangelo, D.

 

[Namba 17]

Yup, that was who I was talking about. If you go by the Top-Euros projects, he came in ahead of Ragulin and Lutchenko, who both went 200+ spots ahead. Of course, Sologubov played at a time when the competition was not where it should be and that info on him is limited, and I would understand erring on the side of caution when choosing between those three. But after Lutchenko, I don't see any reason (other than the ones I stated in my previous post) to pick Davydov, Ivanov, Lyapkin and even though he's not Russian, Bubla too ahead of Sologubov.

We chose between Sologubov and Bubla and competition level was a decisive factor. Bubla was among the best in a golden era of CSSR and USSR hockey - there were too many high-quality players in Bubla's time not to give Bubla an edge.
I agree with you about Ivanov and Lyapkin - I don't see any reason to pick them ahead of Sologobov. Davydov is considered as defensive specialist, while Sologubov - more all-around with an emphasis on offense, so, if smbody needs defense-first, Davydov may be a better variant - but it's hard to tell here.

 

[King Forsberg]

I'll add another offensive spare just in case Palffy gets hurt or I really want to add some scoring to my starting line up. After a good season last year, a Conn Smythe worthy run with a Cup, and another great season so far this year his guy deserves to be drafted here.

Phil Kessel, RW

 

[Dreakmur]

I'll add another offensive spare just in case Palffy gets hurt or I really want to add some scoring to my starting line up. After a good season last year, a Conn Smythe worthy run with a Cup, and another great season so far this year his guy deserves to be drafted here.

Phil Kessel, RW

I considered him when I took Patrick. I hate him as a player, but nobody can deny the offensive effectiveness.

 

[jarek]

Johnny is skipped.

I'll take Dennis Hull, LW.

It's not entirely clear how he played, but his 68.3 VsX7 should be among the best left for LWs, and he's a very good ES scorer. Should do well as a replacement for Parise if/when he gets injured.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Whoops, sorry 'bout that.

Multi-positional spare Hamby Shore.

 

[jarek]

seventies is skipped.

rmartin selected Ray Getliffe, LW/C.

 

[overpass]

Whoops, sorry 'bout that.

Multi-positional spare Hamby Shore.

See the post below for a 1927 article from the Ottawa Journal where Hamby Shore was mentioned among the fastest skaters of all time.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=80162463&postcount=409

 

[seventieslord]

Probably my most important need in my spares is a center who can put up points in the 15 or so games that Malkin is out with injury. The best guy for that role is Bernie Nicholls, C.

Even if you discount his 1989 and 1990 seasons due to the Gretzky effect (and I do!), Nicholls is the best offensive center on the board, and when you compare him to the next few, he's got some grease to his game that they don't, he can be a 3rd unit penalty killer and he's a very strong playoff producer.

In some good news for me, Nicholls is the first player I've taken this year who I've done a really long bio for in the past (2010). Finally a player who saves me some work instead of making more work for me.

I haven't thrown much shade in this draft, so let me ask - why select Brad Richards, Doug Weight, Billy Burch or Vincent Lecavalier over him?