ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[Voight]

He wasn't on the ice in 6-9 games I went to his rookie season.

It's entirely possible - as I've mentioned - that he was in the press box as a healthy scratch (in the line-up but NOT dressed!) for a LOT of games. That'd explain a lot.

Though, I still recall at least one report of the coach's comments on him being SENT somewhere (I thought back to juniors). Yeah, memory is a funny thing.

I'll say it again. He went straight from the Soo Greyhounds (OHL) to the Bruins. The only place he was sent after that was to San Jose.

 

[Voight]

Dionne has often pondered how he would have done if he was in Montreal and Lafleur was in L.A. (He felt he deserved a cup contender rather than expansion middling team, though he never exactly put it that way, it was implied).

Joe Thornton, in contrast, was CLEARLY traded to an expansion team because he was NOT seen as a Stanley Cup champion calibre competitor:


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/joe-thornton-sharks-captaincy/

So, Thornton is like the opposite of a Dionne in a way.

There's a difference. The Sharks were an expansion team yea but they were 14 seasons in and had made the playoffs multiple times before. The Kings had not & were still a fresh team when Dionne was sent there.

 

[Theokritos]

And unfortunately it appears impossible to verify this as TOI didn't start getting recorded until the season after..

Don't know what the source of theirs is, but one of the links provided above says:

Jumbo Joe started his first NHL career at 18 years old. While averaging 8minutes 5seconds of ice time per game, he accumulated 3 goals and 7 points in 55 games.

I don't get this. Thornton at the time was a big, bruising, elite offensive center. What was he missing, exactly?

Some Boston viewpoints:

Thornton became captain of the Bruins during the 2002-03 season, a role he perhaps was not ready for, or was never quite qualified for. Thornton is a dynamic player to be sure, but never quite seemed to be captain material. (...) Thornton never delivered on those Cup dreams that Boston fans and media built up in their heads (...) Thornton was shipped off to San Jose and has been ridiculed by Boston fans ever since. (Source)

Somehow, it just never worked. Not the way anyone hoped, or expected. Teen angels, fanboys, and stat geeks will mourn Thornton's trade last night to the Sharks, because he was considered the franchise savior even before he was drafted in 1997, as well as the fact he put up some strong offensive numbers. Even this year, when he often appeared to be playing in a fog, for the most part disengaged and lackluster, Jumbo Joe flirted with the top 10 scorers in the game. But, at close inspection, to the trained hockey eye, there was just no there there this season with Thornton. (...) For two months, he rarely was spotted in front of the net, where the league virtually hung out a ''vacancy" sign this season, encouraging one and all to work the low slot. (...) He was content, comfortable to set up shop behind the goal line or stand along the right half-board, looking to pass, clearly steering away from heavy contact -- or the places one might expect heavy contact. (...) It was, quite frankly, puzzling to the point of disbelief. It was that level of disinterested, even disconsolate play, that led general manager Mike O'Connell to wheel Thornton out of town. It was a combination of lack of play, real gritty and committed play, and a heavy paycheck (...) We'll begin to find out today how coach Mike Sullivan sorts out who will wear the captain's ''C" left behind by Thornton. The most obvious pick would be Leetch, already more of a presence in the dressing room in two months than Thornton was in seven-plus years. (...) Boynton remains the rare breed in today's game, a guy who legitimately burns when his team loses. Also not a Thornton trait. (...) He will be remembered on Causeway Street not for what he was, or what he did, but for what he wasn't and what he failed to do. The work forever in progress now can try to get it done somewhere else. (Source)

 

[King Forsberg]

I think I'm going to go to slightly off the beaten path here and draft a spare forward before finishing my starting 12. Just in case Stewart or Beliveau were to get hurt I want to have a spare that can step up and play on my top 2 lines. Welcome Bernie Federko, C. I'll add more later since I am on my phone.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

He wasn't on the ice in 6-9 games I went to his rookie season.

So someone claims that Thornton didn't play in 27 games his rookie season and you say there's no way it's that low because he wasn't on the ice in 6-9 games you went to his rookie season? (already changed from your earlier post that he was on the ice for 1 game in 8-11 games you went to that season)

It's entirely possible - as I've mentioned - that he was in the press box as a healthy scratch (in the line-up but NOT dressed!) for a LOT of games. That'd explain a lot.

Healthy scratches don't count as games played, so no, it wouldn't explain a lot.


I have a feeling your memory has failed you here (or your logic), but if you want to look into it further the hockey summary project can show you who played in every single game that year.

Another thing to consider, if Thornton's games played are too high, that means someone else's are too low. Who would that be?

 

[jarek]

Don't know what the source of theirs is, but one of the links provided above says:





Some Boston viewpoints:

Some very interesting articles. I always viewed Thornton as a guy who would dominate physically due to his size. Maybe that's what he became in San Jose. I dunno.

Is m_b picking for himself or is sturm still the interim GM?

As far as I know m_b will still be picking for himself.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I'll grab Bobby Holik, C.

 

[seventieslord]

Don't know what the source of theirs is, but one of the links provided above says:

Some Boston viewpoints:

TOI was tracked in 1997-98 and was published in the THN yearbook the following fall. I have no idea why it's not included in the NHL's official historical TOI stats.

Some very interesting articles. I always viewed Thornton as a guy who would dominate physically due to his size. Maybe that's what he became in San Jose. I dunno.

It's the opposite I thought. He was sold as a power forward before being drafted, and definitely showed signs of it for a while, but became quite docile early on and has remained that way.

I am not 100% sure why, but I believe the Lindros Fight has been cited before as a prime reason.

 

[895]

Okay now that he's gone, can someone tell me why Bobby Holik was such a great defensive player but was never a penalty killer? Seems like had the skillset for it.

I get that in NJ there was Madden and xxx before him but you'd think he'd a secondary or tertiary option. Instead he had 50 SH minutes in 724 games.

 

[jarek]

It's the opposite I thought. He was sold as a power forward before being drafted, and definitely showed signs of it for a while, but became quite docile early on and has remained that way.

I am not 100% sure why, but I believe the Lindros Fight has been cited before as a prime reason.

When I say dominate physically, I don't mean in a bone crunching kind of way. I mean that when he gets the puck, it's almost impossible to knock him off of it. He dominates the cycle game along the boards.

 

[seventieslord]

Wow, Bernie Federko arguably the best offensive center at the time he was picked? I never thought I'd see the day.

 

[Iceman]

Stockholm selects Kirk Muller, C/LW

 

[Johnny Engine]

Okay now that he's gone, can someone tell me why Bobby Holik was such a great defensive player but was never a penalty killer? Seems like had the skillset for it.

I get that in NJ there was Madden and xxx before him but you'd think he'd a secondary or tertiary option. Instead he had 50 SH minutes in 724 games.

As I understand it, not the speedy, agile forward you might want covering lots of open ice at the points and in the high slot. That's not to say it isn't a little odd that they didn't want to use his faceoff prowess out there, but I wouldn't say he's ideal for the job.

 

[tony d]

Time to look at recent picks:

Art Ross- Good pick. One of the better, if not the best coaches, left.

Bruce Macgregor: Seems like a good utility guy for sure, great fit for a 4th line with Balon and Bergeron. Good way to finish your top 12 forwards.

Brian Sutter: My pick, glad to get him, really helps my team in a physical sense and should play well with Sanderson, unsure of how I finish that line as of yet.

Mel Bridgman: good pick, have looked at him in the past and gave him a passing glance last night when I went with Sutter. How much Left wing did he actually play? I read his bio and it mentions he did switch between LW and Centre but I think he was more a centre.

Ed Litzenberger: Good pick, should fit in well with Sullivan as part of your 4th/checking line.

Brent Seabrook: He went 516th last year, don't know if he did enough this year to deserve a 55 place jump. He's had a solid past but I don't know if he should have jumped 55 spots. (See I can be critical).

Ted Harris: Good pick, should do well in a defensive role next to the offensive Mohns.

Andrei Markov: Good pick, it was a need for your team to add another pp defenseman and you got a good 1 in Markov.

Bernie Federko: Had I gone for an offensive centre when I went with Sanderson, I think Federko would have got a long look. He'll be good off the bench, given you have another pick coming up at 470 I can see you addressing 1 of the roster needs on your team with that pick and getting a good value pick with Federko.

Bobby Holik: Looked at him as well when I went with Sanderson, didn't go with him because, to my surprise, he didn't play on the pk that much. Given you have 4 centres already, I guess you plan on fitting in Kesler at right wing. Holik and Kesler will make for a good 4th line.

Kirk Muller: Nice pick as well, good player for a 4th line.

Anyway those are my thoughts on recent picks.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It's the opposite I thought. He was sold as a power forward before being drafted, and definitely showed signs of it for a while, but became quite docile early on and has remained that way.

I am not 100% sure why, but I believe the Lindros Fight has been cited before as a prime reason.

I've heard this about the Lindros fight also

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Wow, Bernie Federko arguably the best offensive center at the time he was picked? I never thought I'd see the day.

There's not any reason to take him other than offense right?

 

[seventieslord]

I've heard this about the Lindros fight also

Fights don't prove physicality/toughness, but that was his 23rd NHL fight in his 7th season, and he has 9 in the 12 seasons since.

 

[seventieslord]

There's not any reason to take him other than offense right?

Right.

 

[Sturminator]

Right.

It should at least be noted in Bernie's defense that he was also a very good postseason scorer. But yeah, he's about as offense only as it gets.

 

[King Forsberg]

Wow, Bernie Federko arguably the best offensive center at the time he was picked? I never thought I'd see the day.

There's not any reason to take him other than offense right?

It should at least be noted in Bernie's defense that he was also a very good postseason scorer. But yeah, he's about as offense only as it gets.

Yeah Bernie's offense is really all I'm concerned about here. I mean how many other players left have Bernie's offense in the regular season and post season? Plus he remained relatively healthy his whole career. He was also a good leader in the real world so he's not some kind of enigma like some other offense only players are. There's a few teams out here that have top six centers that are somewhat injury prone so if getting Federko prevents those teams from having a reliable spare that can replace that offense then that's another plus.

 

[Sturminator]

Now that we're getting to the dregs of the draft, here's my (early) take on the best picks by round, taking into account draft position (raw value), team needs, positional scarcity, etc.:

1. Guy Lafleur - 25th overall: seems pretty low for a player of Lafleur's talents.
2. Jacques Plante - 47th overall: another pure value pick here.
3. Borje Salming - 68th overall: last in his tier.
4. Anatoly Firsov - 93rd overall: I simply think he's underrated at this spot.
5. Sweeney Schriner - 116th overall: tough to find great value in this round, but the dropoff from Schriner to the next best offensive LW (Kariya/Conacher) is pretty substantial.
6. Shea Weber - 131st overall: low-key steal. A modern guy whose draft status hasn't yet caught up with his achievements.
7. Sylvio Mantha - 172nd overall: had him as the last in his tier where he went. Bonus points for leadership.
8. Vladimir Petrov - 193rd overall: my esteem for Petrov's game has risen as more information about him has come out. Think he's undervalued here. R.I.P.
9. Pat Stapleton - 206th overall: last in his tier among puck-moving defensemen. Could have gone a round earlier.
10. Frank Frederickson - 248th overall: this is low for Frederickson. Pure value pick.
11. Daniel Sedin - 251st overall: last in his tier among offensive LWs (without huge warts), and reuniting him with Thing Two is a no-brainer.
12. Russell Bowie - 295th overall: I don't often praise Bowie, but this is low for him.
13. Cy Wentworth - 314th overall: an underrated 2nd pairing guy in this. As good as some guys picked well before him.
14. Hap Day - 338th overall: With Morenz and Keon already on the team, this looks like an excellent fit, Day is good value as the 11th coach taken, and Johnny saved himself from being on the wrong end of the epic coaching run.
15. Brent Burns - 371st overall: a really interesting player. Will he win the Hart this year?
16. Pit Lepine - 388th overall: strange drop for Lepine, who is a fringe top-10 defensive forward of all time, imo.
17. Vladimir Vikulov - 413th overall: Johnny got on a roll here. Vikulov was the last in his tier among offensive RWs for sure, and is a good value at this spot.
18. Zach Parise - 432nd overall: solid pick to fill the open 2nd line LW role on that team.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Now that we're getting to the dregs of the draft, here's my (early) take on the best picks by round, taking into account draft position (raw value), team needs, positional scarcity, etc.:

3. Borje Salming - 68th overall: last in his tier.

Leetch went 64th, Salming 68th...I was shocked to see jarek trade away his 63rd pick to BB when he already had Maurice Richard + Bathgate, and no defenseman with these two still on the board.

4. Anatoly Firsov - 93rd overall: I simply think he's underrated at this spot.

When I took Denneny at 82nd I remember thinking Firsov should be the next winger picked, but he lasted 11 more picks, 4-5 of which were wingers.

6. Shea Weber - 131st overall: low-key steal. A modern guy whose draft status hasn't yet caught up with his achievements.

If I didn't already have a RHS in Chelios I would've taken him earlier instead of trading down

 

[jarek]

Leetch went 64th, Salming 68th...I was shocked to see jarek trade away his 63rd pick to BB when he already had Maurice Richard + Bathgate, and no defenseman with these two still on the board.

I wasn't happy with the value of taking a D at that point.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

We'll round off our bottom pairing with a steady stay-at-home defenseman who is hard hitting but clean, and who can play 2nd unit PK. The Chicago Shamrocks select Bob Armstrong, D

4x Top 13 Norris Voting(7, 8, 9, 13)
4x Top 13 AS Voting(6, 8, 10, 13)
1960 NHL All Star Game Participant(on merit)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I get why you did this but there's a couple of D available who are better at what Seabrook brings, just without the right shot. Does matching the shot side really justify taking an inferior player?

I would argue that having a defenseman on their natural side is even more important for bottom pairing guys as they are some of the weakest players in the league and need to be playing at their most comfortable. I also think it’s more important on the PK, so it would carry more weight if you’re planning on playing that particular guy on the PK.

Now if you know a LHS Dman regularly played the right side in real life, then I have absolutely no problem with putting them on the right side here.