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ATD 2017 Draft Thread II

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Sprague Cleghorn said:
In response to Tony, Kennedy will be centering Cook. He is the replacement for Boucher, though he's a notch below Boucher both as an overall player and as a playmaker. However, I believe Kennedy is a better goalscorer and better defensively.

Lalonde will have his own show on the 2nd line.
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Selke thought Lalonde was the best he'd ever seen and he saw Morenz and Rocket and Howe. (Per the book Puck Struck - i have a screen shot of it.)
 
BenchBrawl said:
In my opinion St. Louis is better than Iginla, though Iginla brings some physicality which is very useful in this setting.On the other hand, St. Louis is a strong playmaker for a winger.

Just a superb, very determined hockey player.St. Louis definitely has some of the fire Rocket Richard had in his eyes.They even look alike a bit.
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Just wanted to comment on this from yesterday. I was really hoping to get Iginla instead of St. Louis but I plannned on missing out on on him. St. Louis allows to me to possibly draft a second line center that is more of a goal scorer. Or I'll also have the option to leave him with Beliveau. For as good of a passer as he is, he's also got 2 top 5 finishes in goals.
 
ResilientBeast said:
If Lalonde sounds like Messier, Taylor sounds like Gretzky :laugh:
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Lalonde scored more like Gretz but I don't know how you guys equalize that. Frank was 22 in 1915, so Lalonde was the star when he was growing up. Perhaps some bias. Taylor was a star in Selke's 20's when Selke was coaching in Kitchener. So it's likely the Wright Bros flew him into Ottawa in 1915 for the Cup series. This is the only instance where I've read of someone chosing Lalonde over Taylor, but it's a very credible one. Lalonde is referred to as the Habs' first superstar in every Habs book I've ever read and was treated as such at the Forum until he died in the late 60's tho he was not at center ice and Rocket was when they reopened the Forum in 68.
 
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tinyzombies said:
Lalonde scored more like Gretz but I don't know how you guys equalized that. Frank was 22 in 1915, so Lalonde was the star when he was growing up. Perhaps some bias. Taylor was a star in Selke's 20's when Selke was coaching in Kitchener. So it's likely the Wright Bros flew him into Ottawa in 1915 for the Cup series.
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Take a look at my bio http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=127206171&postcount=4

Taylor averaged about 2 PPG in the PCHA, in the bio a former gm did a comparison the year before he went back to the NHA Lalonde had a PPG of 1.187 which went up to 1.3 when he went to the NHA. This year was the weakest of the PCHA in the 1910-1920s, the following seasons Taylor posted PPG averages higher than Lalonde's PCHA PPG every year until he turned 33.
 
ResilientBeast said:
Take a look at my bio http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=127206171&postcount=4

Taylor averaged about 2 PPG in the PCHA, in the bio a former gm did a comparison the year before he went back to the NHA Lalonde had a PPG of 1.187 which went up to 1.3 when he went to the NHA. This year was the weakest of the PCHA in the 1910-1920s, the following seasons Taylor posted PPG averages higher than Lalonde's PCHA PPG every year until he turned 33.
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How much higher? Because Lalonde was a menacing force that Taylor was not and he could also pass the puck. I hqvent found a book about this yet. And Lalonde was also a shutdown center from what I read. Pts aren't the end all. Selke was one of those weird old sentimental cranks prone to exaggeration tho, like Red Fisher and Dink Carroll.
 
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I've warmed up to Dreakmur's Vs2 comparison (sorry Dreakmur) but Taylor is artificially lowered by a season in which he had an appendicitis. Since that wasn't his fault do to play style or age and it's PPG was in line with his previous performances, his Vs2 numbers according to Dreak's consolidated finishes

Are 52.56, 95.17, 100, 109.38, 99.65, 134.40, 124.41
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 6 *(This is missing the appendicitis season)
Assists - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2 *(This is missing the appendicitis season)
Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 9

So Taylor's average is 102.2

Against Lalonde's
81.45, 71.43, 59.8, 92.87, 87.8, 103.75, 74.5

If Dreak's numbers are accurate (not questioning them) Taylor was just way better offensively, Lalonde was more complete maybe but even then Taylor wasn't useless defensively or a giant punching bag.

And Taylor outscored his nearest teammate, Taylor had IMO far less help. He outscored his nearest teammate by 0.57 pts/game for his career and the nearest opponent/league leader by 0.37 Pts/game

tinyzombies said:
How much higher? Because Lalonde was a menacing force that Taylor was not and he could also pass the puck. I hqvent found a book about this yet. And Lalonde was also a shutdown center from what I read. Pts aren't the end all.
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Taylor's league average PPG in the PCHA was nearly 2 while, Lalonde was at about 1.1 in an arguably weaker league. But the post shows for most player scoring in the PCHA was not demonstratively easier than the NHA. Taylor's average from those finishes peg him around Morenz and Richard if there is a literal translation of Vs2 to VsX (not saying it's right but I'd say it's maybe reasonable. Uhmm..shutdown center? Are you sure you're not confusing him with Nighbor?
 
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I don't think many would be on board with give a guy points he never scored. Yeah, it's kind of a fluke injury, but lots of guys get those. There's also no guarantee he scores in the missed games.
 
Dreakmur said:
I don't think many would be on board with give a guy points he never scored. Yeah, it's kind of a fluke injury, but lots of guys get those. There's also no guarantee he scores in the missed games.
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Now how much more dominant was he in the PCHL season by season
Year|Age|GP|PTS|PTs/G|Finish|Nearest Teammate|Diff|Nearest League Wide|Diff
1912-13|28|16|18|1.125|6th|1.25 Pts|-0.125|1.933|-0.808
1913-14|29|16|39|2.4375|1st|1.25|+1.1875|1.9375|+0.5
1914-15|30|16|45|2.8125|1st|2.588 Pts|+0.22454|1.1875|+1.700
1915-16|31|18|35|1.9444|1st|1.294 Pts|+0.650|1.777|+0.16744
1916-17|32|12|29|2.4166|9th|2.30 Pts|+0.1166|2.25|+0.1666
1917-18|33|18|43|2.3888|1st|1.000 Pts|+1.3888|1.777|+0.6111
1918-19|34|20|36|1.8000|1st|1.25 Pts|+0.55|1.450|+0.35

The season before he had 1.944 PPG, the season after 2.388, that's why his Vs2 is tanked because of that fluky injury that many thought would end his career. He'd already beaten that season average twice already. Even if you decide to only give him his career average he comes out 5th in consolidated scoring with a Vs2 of 82.7

changing his appendicitis year to his career PPG gives him a score of 100.37
 
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ResilientBeast said:
Now how much more dominant was he in the PCHL season by season
Year|Age|GP|PTS|PTs/G|Finish|Nearest Teammate|Diff|Nearest League Wide|Diff
1912-13|28|16|18|1.125|6th|1.25 Pts|-0.125|1.933|-0.808
1913-14|29|16|39|2.4375|1st|1.25|+1.1875|1.9375|+0.5
1914-15|30|16|45|2.8125|1st|2.588 Pts|+0.22454|1.1875|+1.700
1915-16|31|18|35|1.9444|1st|1.294 Pts|+0.650|1.777|+0.16744
1916-17|32|12|29|2.4166|9th|2.30 Pts|+0.1166|2.25|+0.1666
1917-18|33|18|43|2.3888|1st|1.000 Pts|+1.3888|1.777|+0.6111
1918-19|34|20|36|1.8000|1st|1.25 Pts|+0.55|1.450|+0.35

The season before he had 1.944 PPG, the season after 2.388, that's why his Vs2 is tanked because of that fluky injury that many thought would end his career. He'd already beaten that season average twice already. Even if you decide to only give him his career average he comes out 5th in consolidated scoring with a Vs2 of 82.7
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Thanks fellas, that's the book I've been looking for for years.
 
Some thoughts on picks made over the past little while:

Sid Abel: Good pick, versatile player, gives you another 1st line centre for sure or if you want to bring out all your big weapons you can have a dynamo 1st line of Abel-Forsberg-Jagr.

Jack Stewart: Name I looked at to go with Lidstrom, very good #2 and the familiarity is there with Kelly.

Marty St.Louis: Decent pick to a lineup that is looking offensive-oriented right now. I'd suggest getting a good goal scoring left winger to complete that line now or goal scoring centre to go with St.Louis on the 2nd line.

Doug Bentley: Another good player, I had him last year, very good winger.

Eddie Gerard: Not a bad way to start your defensive corps. Can also play left wing too so you could have another forward.

Serge Savard: Dropped a little but gives seventies another good weapon. Early on the Seibert-Savard pairing is in the running for best 1st pairing in the draft.

I'm home now and will either make or possibly trade my pick.
 
I thought the book was closed on Lalonde vs. Taylor offensively years ago.

Defensively, I don't see any reason to believe Taylor was anything special, but I'm pretty sure I've read Lalonde was not a great skater and therefore loafed defensively.

It was mentioned Lalonde was like Messier. He was a good goal scorer, tough and dirty and a fiery leader, yes. But Messier won an inordinate amount of championships for his era, and Lalonde did the opposite. Messier also had the speed, defense and slightly better playmaking.
 
seventieslord said:
I thought the book was closed on Lalonde vs. Taylor offensively years ago.

Defensively, I don't see any reason to believe Taylor was anything special, but I'm pretty sure I've read Lalonde was not a great skater and therefore loafed defensively.

It was mentioned Lalonde was like Messier. He was a good goal scorer, tough and dirty and a fiery leader, yes. But Messier won an inordinate amount of championships for his era, and Lalonde did the opposite. Messier also had the speed, defense and slightly better playmaking.
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He wasn't but I've found quotes in my bio discussing his defensive ability. He was at least neutral defensively and won the 1918 PCHA MVP for his all round play including defensive play. I'd say a small plus defensively and wasn't a pushover physically.
 
I thought about all of Keith, Savard and Gerard.

I went with Gerard because I felt he has the highest ceiling and some room to grow, along with some other qualities. For 6 seasons contemporary sources felt he was as good as Cleghorn, if not better.
 
BC-Hockey-Hall-Of-Fame.jpg

The Indiana Ice will pick a guy who won championships at every singel level and tournament he played in/at, Scott "Nieds" Nidermayer!

Niedermayer was a big part of the New Jersey Devils championship / playoff contender teams of 1995-2003, he won his only Norris Trophy in 2004. He then went to Anaheim to fulfil a childhood goal/dream of playing with younger brother Rob, captaining the team to their first championship in 2007.

Internationally, Niedermayer played with Team Canada on several occasions. He is a member of the Triple Gold Club, having won the Stanley Cup as well as World Championship (2004) and an Olympic gold medals (2002, 2010). Niedermayer also played for the Memorial Cup champions(MVP of the tournament in 2992), and championship teams at the 1991 World Junior Championships and the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, making him and Corey Perry the only players in history to have ever won each of the 6 major North American and international competitions available to players. He was captain of the 2010 Team Canada Mens Olympic Team.
 
LW Anatoli Firsov

anatolifirsov2.jpg


It is a common argument by proud Canadians that if Bobby Orr was not unable to play due to injury, the 1972 Summit Series would have been a much different story. Orr was at the prime of his career and the best in the world.

Or was he?

Anatoli Firsov also missed the 1972 Summit Series showdown between the Soviets and the NHL. He is of legendary status in Russian hockey. Some old time Russian observers will tell you he was the best ever. Legendary coach Anatoli Firsov was probably his biggest fan. Then again, he was also Tarasov's most dedicated disciple.

Firsov is one of only 4 players to have his number retired in Soviet hockey (Bobrov, Tretiak and Kharlamov being the others). Firsov was perhaps a faster skater than Kharlamov, who of course wowed Canadian audiences with awesome speed. It was said that Firsov's fast skates were only out-paced by his mind, as he was always a play or two ahead of everyone else on the ice. He was also known for creativity, especially in his variety of shot selection.

Firsov's scoring exploits that helped establish the Soviet Union's dominance of the international hockey scene. Firsov, along with names like Vyatcheslav Sharshinov, Vsevolod Bobrov and Victor Populanov paved the ways for the powerfully awesome Red Army squads that would prove that they were the equals of the professionals in the National Hockey League.

Firsov's finest moment came in the 1968 Olympics in Grenoble France. Firsov led all scorers with 12 goals and 16 points as the Soviets won every game to become the Gold Medal champs.

In all fairness, by the time 1972 rolled around, Firsov was near the end of his career and was not the dominant player in Soviet hockey at that time. The torch had been handed to Valeri Kharlamov earlier in 1972 as Kharlamov led the Red Army to Olympic gold. The Soviets believed that young hockey players were better because of their fitness level and biological clock, and almost as a rule would retire hockey players in their early 30s. That changed after the 1972 and 1974 Summit Series after they saw first hand the greatness Canadian aging stars like Gary Bergman or Gordie Howe. Perhaps if Tarasov had been the Soviet coach for the Summit Series, Firsov would have been included.

Yet Firsov's place in Russian hockey history is undeniable. He scored 344 goals in 474 Russian league games, and another 66 goals and 117 points in 67 international contests. He was a world champion 9 times, including 3 Olympic golds. In 3 of those tournaments he was named the best forward.

Many years after it happened, stories were revealed that Firsov may have contacted Larry Regan in 1968. Regan was then the general manager of the Los Angeles Kings and they were holding discussions concerning Firsov's defection from the Soviet Union and playing in the National Hockey League. The arrangement fell through, as it is believe Russian authorities must have learned of this possibility. In the supressed Communist Soviet Union, the story never been revealed until Gorabechev's Glasnost.

Anatoli Firsov never had the chance to prove to the world that he could play and excel against North American professionals. That's a shame because that means only a precious few saw perhaps the greatest Russian hockey player ever.

Firsov, whose father died in World War II when Anatoli was only 1 month old, went into politics following his hockey days. He served in the Russian parliament in the 1990s. He also owned a hotel in Switzerland. He was inducted into the International Hockey Hall of Fame in 1998, two years before he passed away.
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http://internationalhockeylegends.blogspot.com/2008/06/anatoli-firsov.html​
 
The Collective is proud to assimilate the only player in league history to win the Selke, Pearson, and Hart trophy in the same season. The man who can hold down our second line or our blue line, Sergei Fedorov
90a519417e390e1c198974b0935fed5c.jpg

Or should I say, Sergei Fedorborg
 
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