ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

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Leaf Lander

Registered User
Dec 31, 2002
31,962
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BWO Headquarters
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:leafs select

Charlie Conacher RW
Seasons 12
Era Late 20's Early 40's
RS 459 225 173 398 523
PO 49 17 18 35 49
Adjusted stats 459 393 399 792 323
Art Ross Trophy (1934, 1935)
First All-Star Team (1934, 1935, 1936)
Second All-Star Team (1932, 1933)
Stanley Cups 1
HOF 1961
Top 10 Goals
1930-31 (1)1931-32 (1)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (1)
Top 10 Points
1930-31 (3)1931-32 (4)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (4)
Role Power Forward

I'll write a bio up later

too late


was very close to having king clancy!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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EagleBelfour

Registered User
Jun 7, 2005
7,467
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ehsl.proboards32.com
You're forgetting Scott Stevens - just as good as Nick Lidstrom at his defensive peak in my opinion and many others. I think Chelios and Stevens were both better PKers than Lidstrom, though he was excellent, as well.

Stevens was not drafted when I quote that post :). However, if we say that Stevens is one of the best defensive defenceman of All-Time, we can't give him credit for the offence he had in Washington. Just like Yzerman, you can't have the best of both world. You choose either a side or another, or you normalize both part of their career together. If you do so, Stevens is a notch below Lidstrom, Harvey etc ...
 

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
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there is a funny and tragic story about shore and clancy that highlights different attributes of each player. shore's temper and clancy's agitating.


in '36, TML and boston played a 2 game, total goals series. boston won game 1 3-0 (in which shore was very good), and so boston would win the series if they did not lose game 2 by more than 3g.

early in game 2, boston got a 1g lead (4g lead in the series), and TML players were hitting, high sticking, crosschecking shore to try to throw him off his game and to draw penalties from shore's temper. but shore kept his emotions in check.

shore eventually got a minor penalty for tripping, and the bruins became disorganized without him. clancy and another player both scored on the (same) PP to give TML a 2-1 lead. TML were now outplaying boston, even after shore returned, but were still behind 4g to 2g in the series.

a TML player knocked in a rebound near the boston crease, and the bruins complained that it was goalie interference or that the puck had been kicked in. elmer dulmage, reporter for the canadian press, wrote that it was clear that the TML player had been in the crease, but the referee allowed the goal. series was now 4g to 3g for boston.

shore argued in vain with the referee, and clancy began to pester shore, saying gee, eddie, you're not gonna let him get away with that, are you?

clancy's comments pushed shore over the edge and he (lightly) shot the puck into the referee's back as he was skating away, which was a 10 minute misconduct penalty.

2 other bruins took minor penalties soon after and TML soon scored 2g, to take the lead in the series. TML scored twice more. boston scored late in the 2nd and once in the 3rd. TML scored again late to win the game 8-3 and the series 8-6.

it was the biggest comeback in history.


this also shows how important shore was. i read much about him recently, and boston tended to be mediocre when shore was not on the ice.



Leafs select

Charlie Conacher RW
frank selke said in 1962 that charlie conacher was the greatest all around athlete he has known, meaning hockey and other sports. he also said "i have never known any player who has reduced the scoring of goals to as exact a science as charlie conacher."

selke said conacher was not as good a goalscorer as maurice richard b/c conacher tried to make the perfect move, but richard would shoot from anywhere.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
There are other excellent defensemen available, some of them likely quite close to what Clancy brings. But Clancy was the BDA for some time, in my opinion. When sturm said Coffey was clearly the BDA, I thought to myself "no he isn't. There's definitely an argument for Clancy."

Actually, I said Coffey was clearly the BPA, which I believe he was. There is an argument for Clancy, but I think it's much harder to make than the one for Coffey. I mean, how much better does Clancy have to be defensively to make up for Coffey's enormous offensive advantage? A quick comparison of top-20 scoring finishes between the two:

Coffey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 13th

Clancy: 10th, 13th, 13th

You know...I am somewhat surprised by this. I had honestly expected the offensive comparison to be closer...as in, I had expected Clancy to come up with more top-20 scoring placements, but he just doesn't have them. It wasn't really my intention to go in this direction, but I wonder if Clancy's offensive reputation isn't perhaps a bit overstated? Clancy is definitely hurt by his era...being a playmaker in a time of very stingy assist totals...but I had still expected something more. Differences in teammates don't wash as an argument for Clancy, as he played behind the highest scoring offense in the NHL six times in his career (twice in Ottawa, four times in Toronto). At any rate, Coffey is a full order of magnitude better offensively than Clancy.

It is possible, though I think pretty unlikely, that Clancy was so good defensively that he makes up the gap...but the gap is large, and Clancy's size makes him a tough sell as a defensive ace in the ATD. I think you have to do just as much to protect Clancy on a top pairing as you do Coffey, but the reward is lower. I'm interested to see what kind of information seventies has on Clancy's all-around game.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
Believe me, you were more sure about it than Sturm was. :p:

Heh. Yeah...I really agonized over this pick. Thanks for being so patient with my confused series of PMs. The thing is...now that I have Paul Coffey, I really need to build the right kind of team around him, and that's not easy. Coffey's offensive game in transition was largely built around creating lanes through stickhandling and quick passing plays with Gretzky and then bursting through the holes with his incredible acceleration. Those two played an lot of tic-tac-toe hockey going up the ice, and although I thought about going other directions with this pick, I realized that, ultimately, having an elite playmaking pivot was the key to getting the most out of Paul Coffey offensively.

Frank Boucher's resume justifies taking him at this point, anyway, but in terms of playing style, I view him as the perfect fit to team with Paul Coffey; probably the closest player in history to Gretzky's style of hockey, and a physically solid (I once thought otherwise) 2-way forward, as well.
 

Velociraptor

Registered User
May 12, 2007
10,953
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Big Smoke
Thanks seventies, you made my decision much easier. As much as I wanted Clancy, I'm able to make the pick without hesitation.

The Cleveland Barons select...

Sprague Cleghorn, D

spraguecleghorn.jpg


Bio will come later, I have class until 2 ET.

I'll notify Tony D and Anton now.
 

papershoes

Registered User
Dec 28, 2007
1,825
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Kenora, Ontario
there is a funny and tragic story about shore and clancy that highlights different attributes of each player. shore's temper and clancy's agitating.

this also shows how important shore was. i read much about him recently, and boston tended to be mediocre when shore was not on the ice.

nik - what is your source? i'm planning on including this bit in my eddie shore bio coming soon. any other nuggets you can send my way?
 

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
nik - what is your source? i'm planning on including this bit in my eddie shore bio coming soon. any other nuggets you can send my way?
calgary herald via google news archive

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xB5kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PHsNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4269,2858012&dq=eddie+shore&hl=en

you can find much good information there. http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=eddie+shore&scoring=a&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1920&as_hdate=1929&lnav=hist0


boston had a weak record after shore was suspended in 1934. i read in multiple articles, including in that one above, that boston was much weaker with shore off the ice.

i have posted some things about shore, mostly in the 1st draft thread. i will find some more and post it. shore is a very interesting player.

top 100 debate also probably has some useful information.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=17516637&postcount=809

something you might like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWjwcWff3s

that video also contains a bit about that 1936 game, from a player who was involved.
 
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JFA87-66-99

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Jun 12, 2007
2,914
26
USA
calgary herald via google news archive

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xB5kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PHsNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4269,2858012&dq=eddie+shore&hl=en

you can find much good information there. http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=eddie+shore&scoring=a&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1920&as_hdate=1929&lnav=hist0


boston had a weak record after shore was suspended in 1934. i read in multiple articles, including in that one above, that boston was much weaker with shore off the ice.

i have posted some things about shore, mostly in the 1st draft thread. i will find some more and post it. shore is a very interesting player.

top 100 debate also probably has some useful information.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=17516637&postcount=809

something you might like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWjwcWff3s

that video also contains a bit about that 1936 game, from a player who was involved.

Awesome video about Eddie Shore. I never saw that one.
 

markrander87

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
4,216
62
Sorry fellas was on a work trip yesterday, got stranded in the middle of nowhere with limited Internet access, just got home in a huge storm. Anyways the Fireworks are proud to select RW Bernie "Boom Boom" Geoffrion.

He will be looked upon to play the point With Robinson on our PP as well.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me in June
Jun 23, 2007
76,666
4,580
Behind A Tree
Good pick on Geoffrion, he was on the short list for me and Dave. Still Malone slipped to us so we had to take him.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,284
7,552
Regina, SK
Didn't I make that obvious enough?

There are other excellent defensemen available, some of them likely quite close to what Clancy brings. But Clancy was the BDA for some time, in my opinion. When sturm said Coffey was clearly the BDA, I thought to myself "no he isn't. There's definitely an argument for Clancy."

I hope you make a really good bio for him so we can get a better idea of just how good he was in his own zone.

Is there any doubt that I'll make a good bio?

:leafs select

Charlie Conacher RW
Seasons 12
Era Late 20's Early 40's
RS 459 225 173 398 523
PO 49 17 18 35 49
Adjusted stats 459 393 399 792 323
Art Ross Trophy (1934, 1935)
First All-Star Team (1934, 1935, 1936)
Second All-Star Team (1932, 1933)
Stanley Cups 1
HOF 1961
Top 10 Goals
1930-31 (1)1931-32 (1)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (1)
Top 10 Points
1930-31 (3)1931-32 (4)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (4)
Role Power Forward

I'll write a bio up later

too late


was very close to having king clancy!!!!!!!!!!!

Good pick; if I went for a winger, it might have been him.

frank selke said in 1962 that charlie conacher was the greatest all around athlete he has known, meaning hockey and other sports. he also said "i have never known any player who has reduced the scoring of goals to as exact a science as charlie conacher."

selke said conacher was not as good a goalscorer as maurice richard b/c conacher tried to make the perfect move, but richard would shoot from anywhere.

This goes pretty well with what I've gleaned from other sources as well.

Actually, I said Coffey was clearly the BPA, which I believe he was. There is an argument for Clancy, but I think it's much harder to make than the one for Coffey. I mean, how much better does Clancy have to be defensively to make up for Coffey's enormous offensive advantage? A quick comparison of top-20 scoring finishes between the two:

Coffey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 13th

Clancy: 10th, 13th, 13th

You know...I am somewhat surprised by this. I had honestly expected the offensive comparison to be closer...as in, I had expected Clancy to come up with more top-20 scoring placements, but he just doesn't have them. It wasn't really my intention to go in this direction, but I wonder if Clancy's offensive reputation isn't perhaps a bit overstated? Clancy is definitely hurt by his era...being a playmaker in a time of very stingy assist totals...but I had still expected something more. Differences in teammates don't wash as an argument for Clancy, as he played behind the highest scoring offense in the NHL six times in his career (twice in Ottawa, four times in Toronto). At any rate, Coffey is a full order of magnitude better offensively than Clancy.

It is possible, though I think pretty unlikely, that Clancy was so good defensively that he makes up the gap...but the gap is large, and Clancy's size makes him a tough sell as a defensive ace in the ATD. I think you have to do just as much to protect Clancy on a top pairing as you do Coffey, but the reward is lower. I'm interested to see what kind of information seventies has on Clancy's all-around game.

It's not about what I "have", as much as what I "look forward to finding" still. I realize it is a tough sell and to be honest, I don't expect to prove that he's better. I'd take Coffey first, too.

Clancy was top-3 in scoring by defensemen something like 8 times including 4 times 1st. Offensively, that's a far cry from Coffey's 9 times 1st, and by the margins he had too.

You're right about the low assist totals hurting Clancy's point placements, of course. Adjustments would have to be made for your comparison to be truly fair, but I doubt he'd come out ahead anyway. And with all that said, it might have just been an era where defensemen weren't as apt to crack the top-10 or top-20 overall scorers; I haven't studied that aspect of the scoring charts at all, really.

Hart voting is an area where Clancy will make up some ground too - even after it's accounted for that defensemen got a fair shake in hart voting back then and not in the 1980s.

Defensively, he has a clear edge, but is it substantial enough? Probably not. Even if I can show that it is, with competition levels and all that, I would still see Coffey coming out ahead as far as all-time worthiness goes.

Thanks seventies, you made my decision much easier. As much as I wanted Clancy, I'm able to make the pick without hesitation.

The Cleveland Barons select...

Sprague Cleghorn, D

spraguecleghorn.jpg


Bio will come later, I have class until 2 ET.

I'll notify Tony D and Anton now.

That is an easy choice alright.

I took Cleghorn over Clancy last time and it was agonizing. It was similarly agonizing this time doing the opposite.

nik - what is your source? i'm planning on including this bit in my eddie shore bio coming soon. any other nuggets you can send my way?

I've read it in a handful of books myself. I actually used this story over 2 years ago to highlight what happens when Conacher meets Shore in the playoffs. It probably contributed to a victory over a very worthy opponent.

nik, I can't watch that video at work... does it have Shore footage in it?
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
I took Cleghorn over Clancy last time and it was agonizing. It was similarly agonizing this time doing the opposite.

Sure, take credit for what I did.. :/
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
I'd like to move up from 65 to one of the upcoming picks, if at all possible.
 
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