As of 2021 - is Crosby vs Ovechkin's all-time ranking finalized, or can one still surpass the other?

[edog37]

I don't think lying is going to help your case.

when was the last time Ovechkin went into a corner to battle for a puck or better yet, play any sort of recognizable defense? He's a one trick pony. He sits on the half wall & waits for the pass to come his way. Crosby plays both ends of the ice with equal passion, battles in the corners, & will get greasy goals. Ovechkin has an unbelievable release & is a pure goal scorer, but that's it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

when was the last time Ovechkin went into a corner to battle for a puck...

About 15 hours ago.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby plays both ends of the ice with equal passion,

65+% offensive zone starts over his career suggests otherwise.

 

[Midnight Judges]

when was the last time Ovechkin went into a corner to battle for a puck or better yet, play any sort of recognizable defense? He's a one trick pony. He sits on the half wall & waits for the pass to come his way. Crosby plays both ends of the ice with equal passion, battles in the corners, & will get greasy goals. Ovechkin has an unbelievable release & is a pure goal scorer, but that's it.

Here, I've got a play just for you. It's from a Penguins game 3 days ago. Did you watch the game by any chance?

Ovechkin goes into the corner, hits Dumoulin, knocks the puck loose, steals the puck, and dishes it to the middle where your boy Crosby is floating around just in time to see Kuznetsov score.

 

[Voight]

I see the debate has already gone into the part where the Crosby Crew (usual suspects) start with the imaginary award giving.

If you go off regular season awards (that were actually won) Ovechkin is ahead in a landslide. The only trophy/award Crosby has more of is Art Ross. Ovechkin is ahead in Harts, Richards, AST's and they are tied in Pearson awards.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Players born after 1970 by top 3 point finishes (minimum of 2)

Crosby: 8 (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Jagr: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
McDavid: 5 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
Ovechkin: 4 (1, 2, 3, 3)
Malkin: 3 (1, 1, 2)
St. Louis: 3 (1, 1, 2)
Thornton: 3 (1, 2, 3)
Kane: 3 (1, 3, 3)
Giroux: 3 (2, 3, 3)
Forsberg: 2 (1, 2)
Benn: 2 (1, 2)
Kucherov: 2 (1, 2)
Draisailt: 2 (1, 2)
Iginla: 2 (1, 3)
Selanne: 2 (2, 2)
Naslund: (2, 2)
Stamkos: 2 (2, 2)
Kariya: 2 (3, 3)

What does this mean? Nothing really, but it highlights the immense difficulty in finishing top 3 in points multiple times. 18 players have done in in birth years 1970-2000. Only 9 have done it 3 times or more.

For Crosby to finish first of this group is incredible. It's a consistency that is really unmatched. Also goes to show that McDavid (I know, another thread) is already third on this list before his 25th birthday.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Players born after 1970 by top 3 point finishes (minimum of 2)

Crosby: 9 (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Jagr: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
McDavid: 5 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
Ovechkin: 4 (1, 2, 3, 3)
Malkin: 3 (1, 1, 2)
St. Louis: 3 (1, 1, 2)
Thornton: 3 (1, 2, 3)
Kane: 3 (1, 3, 3)
Giroux: 3 (2, 3, 3)
Forsberg: 2 (1, 2)
Benn: 2 (1, 2)
Kucherov: 2 (1, 2)
Draisailt: 2 (1, 2)
Iginla: 2 (1, 3)
Selanne: 2 (2, 2)
Naslund: (2, 2)
Stamkos: 2 (2, 2)
Kariya: 2 (3, 3)

What does this mean? Nothing really, but it highlights the immense difficulty in finishing top 3 in points multiple times. 18 players have done in in birth years 1970-2000. Only 9 have done it 3 times or more.

For Crosby to finish first of this group is incredible. It's a consistency that is really unmatched. Also goes to show that McDavid (I know, another thread) is already third on this list before his 25th birthday.

I'd argue it adds context to Crosby's dominance. As in from an all time great perspective there's no one outside of Ovechkin and McDavid that stands out. He dominated, but he did it against decidedly weak top end competition.

Like you said, it also shows how unreal McDavid is and tells me that McDavid is going to end up easily a step ahead of anyone else on that list.

 

[VanIslander]

Crosby is the next Lemieux.

Cue "could've been the best" music.

The older you get, the less that logic flies.

Get it done. No excuses.

Howe & Gretzky did. That's why they are the best. THE best.

Of course, mine is not a moral rant: luck plays a part regarding injuries, but so does constitution (not just a Dungeon & Dragons consideration).

 

[hamzarocks]

Players born after 1970 by top 3 point finishes (minimum of 2)

Crosby: 9 (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Jagr: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
McDavid: 5 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
Ovechkin: 4 (1, 2, 3, 3)
Malkin: 3 (1, 1, 2)
St. Louis: 3 (1, 1, 2)
Thornton: 3 (1, 2, 3)
Kane: 3 (1, 3, 3)
Giroux: 3 (2, 3, 3)
Forsberg: 2 (1, 2)
Benn: 2 (1, 2)
Kucherov: 2 (1, 2)
Draisailt: 2 (1, 2)
Iginla: 2 (1, 3)
Selanne: 2 (2, 2)
Naslund: (2, 2)
Stamkos: 2 (2, 2)
Kariya: 2 (3, 3)

What does this mean? Nothing really, but it highlights the immense difficulty in finishing top 3 in points multiple times. 18 players have done in in birth years 1970-2000. Only 9 have done it 3 times or more.

For Crosby to finish first of this group is incredible. It's a consistency that is really unmatched. Also goes to show that McDavid (I know, another thread) is already third on this list before his 25th birthday.

The crazy thing is this doesn't include 2007 - 2008 (a top 2 finish), 2010 - 2011 (a top 1 finish), and 2011-2012 (a top 2 finish, with a higher probability being a top 1 finish). Also, had he been healthy in 2012 -2013 that 3rd place would have been top 1 again.

Crosby's overall consistency in being amongst the top scorers is incredible and at a different level than any player outside of the big 4, and now Mcdavid. The only years he hasn't outside the ones you mentioned, and the ones he would have been for sure are his rookie year (06), 2018(down year) 2019 (top 5 I believe), 2020 (injury year but likely would have been in the 8th to 12th range), 2021 (top 10) and this year (due to injuries and probably age).

Remarkable to have 12/17 seasons where he was capable of being a top 3 producer.

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby is the next Lemieux.

Cue "could've been the best" music.

The older you get, the less that logic flies.

Get it done. No excuses.

Howe & Gretzky did. That's why they are the best. THE best.

Of course, mine is not a moral rant: luck plays a part regarding injuries, but so does constitution (not just a Dungeon & Dragons consideration).

Howe is greater than Lemieux not Better.

Lemieux is the better player but has a lower legacy due to injuries. Similar to Curry vs Magic in the NBA though Curry has legit poor playoff performances and no finals MVPs, while Mario has 2

 

[hamzarocks]

I see the debate has already gone into the part where the Crosby Crew (usual suspects) start with the imaginary award giving.

If you go off regular season awards (that were actually won) Ovechkin is ahead in a landslide. The only trophy/award Crosby has more of is Art Ross. Ovechkin is ahead in Harts, Richards, AST's and they are tied in Pearson awards.

AST's at the minimum are not as relevant between the two with OV getting 2 ASTs in 2013 as a mistake, and his general position of LW being considerably easier to make as a top 2 player than making it as a Center

OV does blow Crosby away (and pretty much everyone besides maybe Howe, Bossy, and Hull with WHA counted) in Rockets/Goal scoring leads

 

[um]

I think Ovechkin was better the first 5 years and Crosby the next 10. It’s possible Ovechkin could overtake Crosby but unlikely.

Ovechkin will take the greater claim if he gets 800 goals. Note that better and greater are different.

 

[VanIslander]

Howe is greater than Lemieux not Better.

Mario whined when a 5'11 Lithuanian pestered him, demanding the team acquire him so he wouldn't have to play against him.

Howe, Mr. Elbows, destroyed the face of the guy who dared to face him, and his own mother worried he'd kill someone some day.

In the end...

Mario had 9 seasons of top-5 NHL scoring.

Howe had 20 consecutive seasons of top-5 NHL scoring.

That's hockey. At its best.

 

[hamzarocks]

Mario whined when a 5'11 Lithuanian pestered him, demanding the team acquire him so he wouldn't have to play against him.

Howe, Mr. Elbows, destroyed the face of the guy who dared to face him, and his own mother worried he'd kill someone some day.

In the end...

Mario had 9 seasons of top-5 NHL scoring.

Howe had 20 consecutive seasons of top-5 NHL scoring.

That's hockey. At its best.

Lemiuex has 9 seasons of top 5 NHL scoring in how many healthy seasons?

Howe's longevity is obviously all time level making him the greater player.

However Lemiuex Peak and Prime was insane. He won 6 Rosses despite everything. That's 1 more than Howe despite playing only 10 healthy years. Healthy being having played 60 games or more

Howe won 5 Rosses in 20 healthy years despite having lower level of competition.

Howe will be the 2nd greatest player and is above Lemieux in all time rankings but for me Lemiuex was the better hockey player. He was dominating against tougher competition in his peak at an incredible level.

Obviously fans of Howe, Gretzky will pretend he wouldn't have added to his trophy case and legacy despite it being clear he was still the best player in the NHL into the dead puck era, the fact is he still won 6 rosses in 10 healthy tries which is incredible

 

[jigglysquishy]

For the record, Howe won 6 Art Rosses, not 5. And had a further 2 seasons where he won the Hart, but not the Ross.

 

[edog37]

Here, I've got a play just for you. It's from a Penguins game 3 days ago. Did you watch the game by any chance?

Ovechkin goes into the corner, hits Dumoulin, knocks the puck loose, steals the puck, and dishes it to the middle where your boy Crosby is floating around just in time to see Kuznetsov score.

except this is more like his compete level over the majority of his career.

 

[VanIslander]

For the record, Howe won 6 Art Rosses, not 5. And had a further 2 seasons where he won the Hart, but not the Ross.

Gretzky won 7 Art Rosses in a row, plus the Hart EVERY one of those years after winning the Hart as a 19 year old (after a year in another pro league).

To be clear, no one but Gretzky scored more over his first 8 seasons. That's why he took the Hart trophy every one of those years. McDavid is a boy in comparison.

Points

1979-80 NHL 137 (1st)

1980-81 NHL 164 (1st)

1981-82 NHL 212 (1st)

1982-83 NHL 196 (1st)

1983-84 NHL 205 (1st)

1984-85 NHL 208 (1st)

1985-86 NHL 215 (1st)

1986-87 NHL 183 (1st)

1987-88 NHL 149 (2nd)

1988-89 NHL 168 (2nd)

1989-90 NHL 142 (1st)

1990-91 NHL 163 (1st)

1991-92 NHL 121 (3rd)

1993-94 NHL 130 (1st)

1996-97 NHL 97 (4th)

1997-98 NHL 90 (3rd)

Career NHL 2857 (1st)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Here's a question - would a 3rd-place scoring finish this year add to his legacy?

 

[Gurglesons]

I think Ovechkin was better the first 5 years and Crosby the next 10. It’s possible Ovechkin could overtake Crosby but unlikely.

Ovechkin will take the greater claim if he gets 800 goals. Note that better and greater are different.

Yeah agreed. Although I’d probably go Ovi for like 4 of the 1st 5. Then Crosby from like 09-10 until 17-18 and then Ovi from 18-19 to now.

 

[bobholly39]

Players born after 1970 by top 3 point finishes (minimum of 2)

Crosby: 8 (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Jagr: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
McDavid: 5 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
Ovechkin: 4 (1, 2, 3, 3)
Malkin: 3 (1, 1, 2)
St. Louis: 3 (1, 1, 2)
Thornton: 3 (1, 2, 3)
Kane: 3 (1, 3, 3)
Giroux: 3 (2, 3, 3)
Forsberg: 2 (1, 2)
Benn: 2 (1, 2)
Kucherov: 2 (1, 2)
Draisailt: 2 (1, 2)
Iginla: 2 (1, 3)
Selanne: 2 (2, 2)
Naslund: (2, 2)
Stamkos: 2 (2, 2)
Kariya: 2 (3, 3)

What does this mean? Nothing really, but it highlights the immense difficulty in finishing top 3 in points multiple times. 18 players have done in in birth years 1970-2000. Only 9 have done it 3 times or more.

For Crosby to finish first of this group is incredible. It's a consistency that is really unmatched. Also goes to show that McDavid (I know, another thread) is already third on this list before his 25th birthday.

He does even better in the PPG category too, with 10 top 3 finishes.

1,1,1,1,1,1,2, 2, 3, 3.

And if you expand it to top 5, he adds finishes of: 4, 5,

One of the most consistent high end primes of all-time. Imo, only Bourque, Howe and Gretzky are in that tier of consistency - and I'm not sure Crosby is 4th in that comparison.

I think Ovechkin was better the first 5 years and Crosby the next 10. It’s possible Ovechkin could overtake Crosby but unlikely.

Ovechkin will take the greater claim if he gets 800 goals. Note that better and greater are different.

I don't agree with the premise of a raw goal total deciding where he ranks or not - but ignoring that for a second, I feel as though as of today you can probably remove the "if". Short of some tragic career ending injury - it's safe to say Ovechkin will score 800 goals. 100%.

Here's a question - would a 3rd-place scoring finish this year add to his legacy?

Scoring is up lately. McDavid + Drai are both looking insane, flirting with paces of ~150+ points. We'll see if they go that high.
Ovechkin is currently on pace for 125 points.

The last 3 seasons - if you take the 3rd highest ppg player in league paced to 82 games, it comes out to ~112-113 points for 3rd place.

So to answer your question - if Ovechkin finishes 3rd in the scoring race while scoring ~95 points....it's a great season, so I'm sure it adds a bit, not not a whole lot considering his great resume already.

But if Ovechkin finishes 3rd in scoring race while scoring ~115+ points? I think this absolutely would add to his resume - it would be a pretty important season for him historically.

Obviously - I don't expect him to finish that high. His career high is 112 points.

Yeah agreed. Although I’d probably go Ovi for like 4 of the 1st 5. Then Crosby from like 09-10 until 17-18 and then Ovi from 18-19 to now.

18-19 Crosby 2nd place hart
19-20 injured, but still scored at a higher pace
20-21 Crosby 4th place hart

How is Ovechkin ahead since 2018-2019? You sure you're not being too influenced from his start to the season this year? Spectacular for sure - but it's only 18 games, we should wait and see how it plays out.

 

[hamzarocks]

Gretzky won 7 Art Rosses in a row, plus the Hart EVERY one of those years after winning the Hart as a 19 year old (after a year in another pro league).

To be clear, no one but Gretzky scored more over his first 8 seasons. That's why he took the Hart trophy every one of those years. McDavid is a boy in comparison.

Points

1979-80 NHL 137 (1st)

1980-81 NHL 164 (1st)

1981-82 NHL 212 (1st)

1982-83 NHL 196 (1st)

1983-84 NHL 205 (1st)

1984-85 NHL 208 (1st)

1985-86 NHL 215 (1st)

1986-87 NHL 183 (1st)

1987-88 NHL 149 (2nd)

1988-89 NHL 168 (2nd)

1989-90 NHL 142 (1st)

1990-91 NHL 163 (1st)

1991-92 NHL 121 (3rd)

1993-94 NHL 130 (1st)

1996-97 NHL 97 (4th)

1997-98 NHL 90 (3rd)

Career NHL 2857 (1st)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky did get an undeserved hart. Forgot which year it was but Lemieux got robbed in one of those years he won it.

Gretzky is the GOAT and the BOAT lol.

He's greater and better than Lemiuex al time

I do think Lemieux was better than Howe but not the greater player.

Orr is Better than Lemieux and Greater as well imo

Overall rankings I'd still go

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemiuex
5. McDavid

McDavid will end up top 5 all time and I see draisaitl ending top 15 as well with how dominant he is

 

[MadLuke]

Crosby's overall consistency in being amongst the top scorers is incredible and at a different level than any player outside of the big 4, and now Mcdavid

Not 100% sure about that:

Points top 3

1.	Wayne Gretzky*	15
2.	Gordie Howe*	12
3.	Sidney Crosby	8
	Stan Mikita*	8
	Mario Lemieux*	8
	Phil Esposito*	8
7.	Jean Beliveau*	7
	Jaromír Jágr	7
	Cy Denneny*	7
	Maurice Richard*	7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Point top 5

1.	Gordie Howe*	20
2.	Wayne Gretzky*	16
3.	Mario Lemieux*	9
	Sidney Crosby	9
	Andy Bathgate*	9
	Stan Mikita*	9
	Maurice Richard*	9
8.	Jean Beliveau*	8
	Bobby Hull*	8
	Jaromír Jágr	8

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Point top 10:

1.	Gordie Howe*	21
2.	Wayne Gretzky*	16
3.	Sidney Crosby	12
	Jean Beliveau*	12
5.	Bobby Hull*	11
	Maurice Richard*	11
	Alex Delvecchio*	11
	Jaromír Jágr	11
9.	Phil Esposito*	10
	Joe Sakic*	10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It is among the best of the best of people not named Howe or Gretzky, but not sure it is a different level than the Richard-Hull-Jagr-Beliveau-Esposito-Mikita of the world or maybe it is (when you consider other element than raw finish, like league size and so on)? At least it is not that obvious. He has a good argument to be the best outside Howe-Gretzky at it for sure, but it is not at a different level, would he have 2 more of those because of a special mix constitution/ability to avoid injuries/longevity/luck etc,,, than he would be.

 

[jigglysquishy]

If Crosby was healthy from 2011-2013, I suspect we would be inundated with Howe vs. Crosby threads instead of Ovechkin vs. Crosby.

If you assume everything stays the same, except Crosby puts up 39 points in 26 additional games in 2011 and 6 points in 4 additional games in 2013, he would have had 4 Art Rosses and 4 Harts.

The case of Crosby vs. Beliveau/Mikita/Morenz/Esposito would become much clearer and Crosby would have been the consensus #5.

But he didn't so we are left with what we're left with.

 

[filinski77]

If Crosby was healthy from 2011-2013, I suspect we would be inundated with Howe vs. Crosby threads instead of Ovechkin vs. Crosby.

If you assume everything stays the same, except Crosby puts up 39 points in 26 additional games in 2011 and 6 points in 4 additional games in 2013, he would have had 4 Art Rosses and 4 Harts.

The case of Crosby vs. Beliveau/Mikita/Morenz/Esposito would become much clearer and Crosby would have been the consensus #5.

But he didn't so we are left with what we're left with.

I agree, it's tough because of him having the "what-if's" that severely hold him back.

The what-if games start to get messy if you only do it for one person. Cause then you may as well add 2 Rosses and an extra Rocket to Ovechkin's trophy case, and 3 Hart, 3 Lindsay, 3 Ross, 10 Rockets also puts him up there with anyone not named Gretzky imo.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Crosby was healthy from 2011-2013, I suspect we would be inundated with Howe vs. Crosby threads instead of Ovechkin vs. Crosby.

If you assume everything stays the same, except Crosby puts up 39 points in 26 additional games in 2011 and 6 points in 4 additional games in 2013, he would have had 4 Art Rosses and 4 Harts.

The case of Crosby vs. Beliveau/Mikita/Morenz/Esposito would become much clearer and Crosby would have been the consensus #5.

But he didn't so we are left with what we're left with.

Yeah but those things didn't happen.

If you play the woulda/shoulda game for Crosby, you gotta do it for everyone, in which case Ovechkin has 2 more Art Rosses (3), another rocket or two (10-11), and another Hart (4).

Of course that assumes players who sat games played games, but fails to account for players who played through injuries - as Ovie has on several occasions. What if Ovie isn't injured in 2012, 2017, and 2021? He led the NHL in goals for 4 straight years leading up to 2017, and 3 consecutive years after. It's pretty safe to say he would have topped 44 goals without the wrist problem in 2017. Does he only get credit for injuries if he sits games? -In which case he is punished for playing through it? That hardly seems equitable, and certainly doesn't reflect the reality of the value players bring to their teams.

It's a can of worms.

The rational conclusion is to judge players based on what they actually accomplished.