Player Discussion Artemi Panarin

[TopShelfSnipes]

Panarin is guilty of it. I'm not giving him a free pass but he did what everyone else was doing. No one did it on the team. It was a team wide issue. I don't think they need to be micro-managed like Quinn did ( maybe they do need it to that extent ) but there needs to be a foundational gameplan on how to create space and support for the puck. Moving your legs to properly support the puck is a great start.

Everyone stops skating. On defense, transition and on the attack. We'd go into a 'coast and puck watch' mode. Surprisingly, that's easy to defend/play against. Who would have thought....

If this team learns to move as a unit and with a tactical purpose, thing will open up for Panarin and we'd start seeing glimpses of 2019.

This. If anything the Rangers (and especially the kid line at times) are proof positive that extended zone time doesn't necessarily mean that chances will be created.

It might be fun to watch, but at some point the offense has to stop dicking around with cycling the puck around the boards and somebody's either got to drive the net with the puck, cut to the middle, or crash the slot with speed and purpose (ie not just chilling in the slot closely guarded) to cause chaos, force a mismatch, or create soft spots in the zone that the other forwards can use to create.

The forward group as a whole rarely did this - which tells me it's a systems/coaching issue - which is why most shots seemed to come from the points since those were the only guys open with time to release the puck. Tells me the coaching staff's strategy was "hurrdurr get bodies in front and lob muffins from the point you miss 100% of the shots you don't take (and 99% of the ones you do) hurrdurr" and the players went along with it to their own detriment. Especially because the issue was consistent across lines and acquisitions picked up the "habits" too.

 

[Leonardo87]

Panarin doesn't really fit with anyone and thats a problem.

At 11.6, he's supposed to be someone who can fit with anyone.

This team will continue to cater to him because of that cap hit. I said in the other thread don't like to throw players under the bus and be so negative, usually am the one defending them, But I just don't see this team winning crap with Panarin here. I hope I'm proven wrong, but just don't see it.

 

[duhmetreE]

This team will continue to cater to him because of that cap hit. I said in the other thread don't like to throw players under the bus and be so negative, usually am the one defending them, But I just don't see this team winning crap with Panarin here. I hope I'm proven wrong, but just don't see it.

We're definitely not winning with him playing with how he has.... unless one of the youngins goes crazy

 

[duhmetreE]

I get it. He's the top paid player on the team. 2nd highest paid in the league. He deserves A LOT of criticism.

Everything I can blame him for, I can blame the rest of the team. He should be held to a higher standard but it's deeper than just one player. That's what I'm attempting to delineate.

When everyone is underperforming 5v5, it may be more than just the players.

 

[CLW]

This. If anything the Rangers (and especially the kid line at times) are proof positive that extended zone time doesn't necessarily mean that chances will be created.

It might be fun to watch, but at some point the offense has to stop dicking around with cycling the puck around the boards and somebody's either got to drive the net with the puck, cut to the middle, or crash the slot with speed and purpose (ie not just chilling in the slot closely guarded) to cause chaos, force a mismatch, or create soft spots in the zone that the other forwards can use to create.

The forward group as a whole rarely did this - which tells me it's a systems/coaching issue - which is why most shots seemed to come from the points since those were the only guys open with time to release the puck. Tells me the coaching staff's strategy was "hurrdurr get bodies in front and lob muffins from the point you miss 100% of the shots you don't take (and 99% of the ones you do) hurrdurr" and the players went along with it to their own detriment. Especially because the issue was consistent across lines and acquisitions picked up the "habits" too.

That is why D participation is crucial. Under Gallant/Drury the D was far too conservative/incapable of supporting the offense. The kids attack like a group all three of them go into a corner and dig out the puck, the puck is then played to the D... and then what happens? Nothing is what. It's not the forwards that is the issue, it's that the plays die on the offensive blueline. There is (was) no real plan for the game in the o-zone. No movement as a unit etc.

 

[EdJovanovski]

I get it. He's the top paid player on the team. 2nd highest paid in the league. He deserves A LOT of criticism.

Everything I can blame him for, I can blame the rest of the team. He should be held to a higher standard but it's deeper than just one player. That's what I'm attempting to delineate.

When everyone is underperforming 5v5, it may be more than just the players.

He was also the headliner of the last free agency class before Covid lockdowns turned the entire leagues finances into turmoil. It's dishonest when people bash him for his contract by comparing it to other stars who signed deals NOT as UFA's, and after Covid.

And Buchnevich was a cap casualty, Drury then spent MORE money than Buch signed with St Louis for; on Goodrow, Nemeth, Reaves & Blais. And Buch was commenting crying emoji's on the Rangers Instagram accounts livestream of the player intros for our home opener when he was already on the Blues. When he played his first game back at MSG during warmups and stood at their blue line and held his stick out and Mika passed a puck to him was heartbreaking. And he did this.

Nobody will convince me he wouldn't have signed for less than he did with the Blues to stay here. 87pt pace this season btw. The BS argument that well it's getting rid of Panarin + getting 11 million in cap space, whoop dee doo I wonder what other plugs Drury would sign to bad contracts with that cap space. He wouldn't find anyone with half the offensive talent of Panarin.

 

[McRanger92]

He was also the headliner of the last free agency class before Covid lockdowns turned the entire leagues finances into turmoil. It's dishonest when people bash him for his contract by comparing it to other stars who signed deals NOT as UFA's, and after Covid.

And Buchnevich was a cap casualty, Drury then spent MORE money than Buch signed with St Louis for; on Goodrow, Nemeth, Reaves & Blais. And Buch was commenting crying emoji's on the Rangers Instagram accounts livestream of the player intros for our home opener when he was already on the Blues. And did this.

Nobody will convince me he wouldn't have signed for less than he did with the Blues to stay here. 87pt pace this season btw. The BS argument that well it's getting rid of Panarin + getting 11 million in cap space, whoop dee doo I wonder what other plugs Drury would sign to bad contracts with that cap space. He wouldn't find anyone with half the offensive talent of Panarin.

Buchnevich is a good player but he would just be more of the same with this roster. He would not have made a lick of difference to the outcomes of the last few seasons except making us more top heavy with guys who love to play "looking good hockey" (Artemi's words, not mine) instead of what actually wins in this league. Gorton would've traded him anyway to make room for your boy Kravtsov and you're lying to yourself if you think he wasnt. He just wouldve used the cap space to sign more locker room cancers like Tony D, Lemiuex and Georgiev.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Buchnevich is a good player but he would just be more of the same with this roster. He would not have made a lick of difference to the outcomes of the last few seasons except making us more top heavy with guys who love to play "looking good hockey" (Artemi's words, not mine) instead of what actually wins in this league. Gorton would've traded him anyway to make room for your boy Kravtsov and you're lying to yourself if you think he wasnt. He just wouldve used the cap space to sign more locker room cancers like Tony D, Lemiuex and Georgiev.

My post wasn't intended to say Buchnevich would solve all our problems, but that I don't trust Drury to spend cap wisely and I don't think there's any chance he comes out on the winning end of a Panarin trade & whatever he does with the remaining cap space.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'd rather have Buchnevich than Panarin.

He'd still suck in the playoffs but he'd do it at half the price.

 

[IchabodCrane]

If it’s everyone else’s fault that you play like shit, maybe it’s just you that is the shit. Panarin made everyone better around him his first year here. Now, everyone else makes him shitty? Guys, we have to stop making excuses for and advocating for the “superstars”. That’s why our team has been shit for 30 years.

 

[Leonardo87]

Hey Fellas, don’t feed the trolls. lol. Thanks.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

That is why D participation is crucial. Under Gallant/Drury the D was far too conservative/incapable of supporting the offense. The kids attack like a group all three of them go into a corner and dig out the puck, the puck is then played to the D... and then what happens? Nothing is what. It's not the forwards that is the issue, it's that the plays die on the offensive blueline. There is (was) no real plan for the game in the o-zone. No movement as a unit etc.

It's both. Other teams that play modern systems put the forwards in the offensive zone in close proximity and work very closely moving without the puck to create space:
-Setting subtle picks a few feet off the boards to allow the puck carrier to come off the boards from the half wall, get inside the dot, and get a good shot while the third forward either stays weakside at the goal mouth or cuts in to screen.
-Quick give and go's and one-touch passing high in the zone to alleviate checking pressure - characterized by quick, crisp passes with both players never more than a few feet apart, and ultimately resulting in the player who is the final recipient of the pass getting room to skate towards the net while opening lanes for the other forwards.
-Taking the puck behind the net and just walking it out front and trying for a chance, with a second forward nearby for support/retrieval if the puck is poked away, and the third forward high ready to backcheck if needed but also a viable passing option in the slot. Everything about the Rangers' system spread the forwards out, put them on the perimeter, and didn't put them in position to support each other and the puck.

That's why the forwards didn't create anything off the cycle. Even activating the D, or even the inadvertent pinch-and-carry-down-low didn't help, because all that did was swap the D with a forward and all players on the ice remained along the perimeter making 15 foot passes along the boards that created nothing. If "possession" was sustained long enough, the forwards, not coached to take it to the house or try for a timing play to exploit a seam, would eventually get it to a D with a lane, and the inevitable muffin would come from the point - maybe with traffic in front - but it was always a low percentage play.

IMO the best way the D can support the offense is with good crisp outlet passing, and carrying the puck out of the zone with speed when that's appropriate. In the offensive zone, I'll settle for making smart plays with the puck (not just dumping it blindly into a corner under pressure), and not taking every single low percentage shot they can take (glares at Ben Harpur). But the forwards need to create movement otherwise it's always going to be wall play with no purpose and not a whole lot else.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Here's a simple example of all the things the Rangers don't do without the puck:



A few key moments that distinguish this rush and ensuing quick cycle from the Rangers:

• #1 (off camera) - the puck is moved up quickly, trapping all three Vegas forwards
• #2 - Draisaitl carries the puck with speed and backs the D off, creating a zone entry with possession.
• #3 - F1 (Draisaitl) enters the zone. F2 (LW) doesn't immediately crash the net. He's a decoy, because there's no lane to him, but he effectively takes the RD out of the equation. The LD effectively ends up playing as F3 here for a moment - he has beaten his backchecker to the middle of the ice, and now glides towards the LW side of the ice to take advantage of following in the wake of F2's lane. If the RD steps up, he passes the puck to F2 who basicaly gets a breakaway. If the RD stays on F2, he has a shooting lane. Freeze frame below. The RD plays it well - goes for gap control and takes away F2 as an option with the stick while drifting his body into the LD's shooting lane. LD misses the net and immediately curls back to his position on the point rather than activate and go low - smart because he missed far side so there's a chance the puck comes out of the zone, and it's not on his side anymore anyway. F2 continues to present as a scoring threat throughout. He doesn't skate to the corner or go behind the net (he slows down specifically NOT to) until LD's shot misses...this prevents the Vegas RD from stepping up on the LD and creates space for him to attempt the shot.

• #4 - With LD going back to position, F3 joins the play and recognizes he has to step up to keep possession alive. RD immediately starts backtracking behind him in case the puck goes out. As F3 goes to play the puck, he plays the body first. That takes the winger out of the play. F1 reads it perfectly and drops back to receive the pass, rather than staying up hoping to receive a chip. This pins the winger on the boards, gives F1 time to make a play, and space to go towards the middle. Most importantly here is what F3 does NOT do. He doesn't just whack the puck around the boards Rangers style to F2 behind the net - who will immediately end up in double coverage with F1 and F3 trapped high and Vegas not needing to keep two D in front of the net if the puck goes below the goalline. Freezeframe below.

• #5 - Finally, the Vegas forward makes a horrible read on this and is late getting back in the D zone. The LD beats him. With all the open ice, Draisaitl (F1) finds the LD in the open space. Since there's no screen in front, he doesn't shoot a muffin, instead he wires a slapshot home. Even still, all the open space disappears quickly, and there's no hesitation to shoot, otherwise the shot gets blocked.

In 2023 Ranger world, if F1 enters the zone at all, it's not with speed and so the other team will have numbers back.

If, on the offchance it is with speed and in an even or 3-on-2 situation, F2 goes to the net and is covered. LD/F3 floats in the middle and is easily backchecked. F1 either pulls up and takes a low percentage shot, or the puck is skated towards the corner and the cycle begins.

Off the broken play, if the puck comes to F3's side in the second screenshot, the puck immediately goes to F2. F2 is immediately checked by the LD, and one of the players in front of the net (probably the center) comes in to help win the battle and neither F1 or F3 can get there in time to help, turnover.

Last year's Rangers team literally would not create the goal in the above video given 100 tries and it's because of a lousy system, no puck support, and poor movement away from the puck. Specifically chose Draisaitl for the highlight because his skating is not his strong suit proving this is not about speed (and he didn't "crash the net" or do something un-Panarin like off the rush - he pulled up and passed), and Ekholm isn't exactly Erik Karlsson offensively either. However, I can't think of a scenario where, if the play above were mirrored, the Rangers would enter the zone in such a way that Panarin has any viable passing option whether he curls up inside the blue line, floats to the circle like Draisaitl and passes behind him, or whatever. Their movement without the puck just doesn't allow it.

 

[Narcissus]

Last year's Rangers team literally would not create the goal in the above video given 100 tries and it's because of a lousy system, no puck support, and poor movement away from the puck. Specifically chose Draisaitl for the highlight because his skating is not his strong suit proving this is not about speed (and he didn't "crash the net" or do something un-Panarin like off the rush - he pulled up and passed), and Ekholm isn't exactly Erik Karlsson offensively either. However, I can't think of a scenario where, if the play above were mirrored, the Rangers would enter the zone in such a way that Panarin has any viable passing option whether he curls up inside the blue line, floats to the circle like Draisaitl and passes behind him, or whatever. Their movement without the puck just doesn't allow it.

Do we want to be Carolina or Edmonton? If it's Carolina than Panarin has to go, if Edmonton he's the guy and we need to let him lead the line whilst giving him the teammates and structure to make good things happen. I think either of these archetypes can produce a winner but Panarin on a team that plays "hard" without much structure is a losing hand as we've seen.

Gallant got outcoached by all of our playoff opponents the last two years, with maybe Ruff being the exception(50/50), we just got lucky twice against Pitt and Carolina.

 

[McRanger92]

My post wasn't intended to say Buchnevich would solve all our problems, but that I don't trust Drury to spend cap wisely and I don't think there's any chance he comes out on the winning end of a Panarin trade & whatever he does with the remaining cap space.

The winning end of a Panarin trade would be him being someone else’s problem. I would take a bacon and hot oil pie from Drury’s pizza joint to be rid of that contract.

Idk how people can watch how Tkachuk, Eichel (guys we legitimately could’ve had if we didn’t sign this bum) & Bobrovsky have carried their teams through these playoffs and not see that Panarin is a massive problem for us. The Rangers cater the entire franchise to him and he jokes about not playing defense and trying to make fancy plays. He gave an interview to the athletic last year saying exactly that like a week before the playoffs, which is comical in hindsight. He’s consistently refused to play with the kids the so called rebuild was based around and Strome needed to be banished to Anaheim for the good of the franchise. It’s no secret that Panarin has gotten worse as the teams expectations have grown year by year. And miss me with his “production” still being solid in the regular season. He had 92 points in a year 11 players had 100 and he plays 1:45 on every Ranger power play. Big whoop.

If I were Drury and the new coach, I’d ask if he even wants to be be here, and if he says yes, he’s playing right wing so our 21 year old #1 overall pick can actually play his natural position in the top 6 and on the power play. I’m not even the biggest Lafreniere fan and even I can admit it’s insane how he’s been used compared to his peers.

 

[SeanAveryTheGreatOne]

Idk how people can watch how Tkachuk, Eichel (guys we legitimately could’ve had if we didn’t sign this bum) & Bobrovsky have carried their teams through these playoffs and not see that Panarin is a massive problem for us.

Agreed. Panarin is a career -16(!) in the playoffs. It annoyed me to no end last year when fans on this board were defending his play because he put up 16 points, totally ignoring his +/- of -5 and terrible possession stats and turnover rate (pretty much every team figured out his proclivity for that drop pass he's addicted to, for example).

Mind you he gets paid more than Tkachuk or Eichel. He sucks.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Do we want to be Carolina or Edmonton? If it's Carolina than Panarin has to go, if Edmonton he's the guy and we need to let him lead the line whilst giving him the teammates and structure to make good things happen. I think either of these archetypes can produce a winner but Panarin on a team that plays "hard" without much structure is a losing hand as we've seen.

Gallant got outcoached by all of our playoff opponents the last two years, with maybe Ruff being the exception(50/50), we just got lucky twice against Pitt and Carolina.

I've wanted to see them play like Edmonton (or any team built around offense) for a while now. Colorado won their Cup playing like this.

Brind'Amour is a talented coach, but the Canes don't score enough to win in the playoffs IMO, even if Svechnikov were healthy. It's a classic example of a skilled coach getting the most out of what is a very average team, and would probably be a bubble team if not for their team play.

Unfortunately, over the years, when the Rangers have been good, they've always adopted Carolina's approach with limited talent (eg 2011-12), rather than going all-in on playing a high speed/skill system and playing like Edmonton does, or Colorado did last year, on the years they do have talent (2013-15 and this year come to mind). When the team lacks talent, playing a Carolina system makes sense. When the team has talent, playing that way makes no sense.

Edmonton's biggest weakness remains goaltending IMO, which is why they can't win, but their system is set up for modern day success. Carolina's system works too - especially in the regular season - but they'll need a stroke of luck or infusion of talent for a playoff run if they hope to win it all.

The Rangers talk the talk about playing a Carolina system but then lack the details to the system to do it. Meanwhile, the players clearly seem to want to play an Edmonton system, but lack the coaching direction for the away from the puck movement that's required to make space like that.

This is why the next coach is so important. I want someone who will preach, nurture, teach, develop, and coach offense. I'm sick of dinosaur coaches obsessed with gap control and zone coverage in the D zone that never coach or develop offense. All that gets you is a team that's really good at getting pinned in its own end, relies on the goalie to make saves, and generally tries to keep chances to the outside but otherwise gives up a shit ton of them because they never can keep the puck. And it gets you stale formulaic play in the offensive zone that chips the puck endlessly along the boards thinking it's the 90s and a third pairing D will blow a tire and magically give you a scoring chance.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Here's some admittedly very bad Microsoft Paint "photoshopping" of the Edmonton zone entry reversed to look like a 2022-23 Rangers zone entry. Pretend the players are who I've labeled them as. How many times did we see something similar to this on a zone entry this season before one of Panarin's many "terrible" turnovers? (If F3 wasn't directed to go to the RW half wall)

Edmonton's system created passing options.
Ours did not.
"Trocheck's" lane does not create space, he's not open, he's not in a position to do anything except retrieve the puck if it goes around the boards. "F3" is fully covered. Faced with the above, Panarin would attempt a low percentage pass, get the puck taken away from him while holding onto it in an attempt to create something, or yeet it into the far corner at 60 MPH three feet in the air in Trocheck's general direction where he has no chance of stopping it and making a play. There's no D trailer offering another option. This is how the Rangers played all year.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Rush centric offenses don't win.

Turning this team into a rush offense will make them fun to watch but thats about it. Colorado is really the only team who has done it recently and they have a billion guys who can carry the puck across at least 2 lines and they got almost every break in the book along the way.

 

[Chaels Arms]

Let's all send out thoughts and prayers to Artemi today.

After ignoring both Kaapo Kakko and Alexis Lafreniere for years Artemi finally decided to be a good veteran teammate and take Vitali Kravtsov under his wing. He stayed after practice and trained Kravtsov in shooting one timers on the PP which, in hindsight, might be one of the most colossal wastes of training time in New York Rangers history. We would have been better off with Panarin keeping his mind sharp by doing crossword puzzles in the locker room. But Artemi said "THIS is the player I'm taking all the way to the top!"

He is probably feeling very sad these past few days that his project didn't work out.

 

[McRanger92]

Let's all send out thoughts and prayers to Artemi today.

After ignoring both Kaapo Kakko and Alexis Lafreniere for years Artemi finally decided to be a good veteran teammate and take Vitali Kravtsov under his wing. He stayed after practice and trained Kravtsov in shooting one timers on the PP which, in hindsight, might be one of the most colossal wastes of training time in New York Rangers history. We would have been better off with Panarin keeping his mind sharp by doing crossword puzzles in the locker room. But Artemi said "THIS is the player I'm taking all the way to the top!"

He is probably feeling very sad these past few days that his project didn't work out.

Kakko and Lafreniere have actually shown a willingness to play through contact, so obviously that wouldve been of no interest to him. Kravtsov, meanwhile, turned to dust every time a defenseman got in his direct path.

 

[will1066]

Let's all send out thoughts and prayers to Artemi today.

After ignoring both Kaapo Kakko and Alexis Lafreniere for years Artemi finally decided to be a good veteran teammate and take Vitali Kravtsov under his wing. He stayed after practice and trained Kravtsov in shooting one timers on the PP which, in hindsight, might be one of the most colossal wastes of training time in New York Rangers history. We would have been better off with Panarin keeping his mind sharp by doing crossword puzzles in the locker room. But Artemi said "THIS is the player I'm taking all the way to the top!"

He is probably feeling very sad these past few days that his project didn't work out.

Kakko and Lafreniere have actually shown a willingness to play through contact, so obviously that wouldve been of no interest to him. Kravtsov, meanwhile, turned to dust every time a defenseman got in his direct path.

Taking the lessons learned from his fight training with Reaves, Kravtsov will be the most feared enforcer in the K.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Let's all send out thoughts and prayers to Artemi today.

After ignoring both Kaapo Kakko and Alexis Lafreniere for years Artemi finally decided to be a good veteran teammate and take Vitali Kravtsov under his wing. He stayed after practice and trained Kravtsov in shooting one timers on the PP which, in hindsight, might be one of the most colossal wastes of training time in New York Rangers history. We would have been better off with Panarin keeping his mind sharp by doing crossword puzzles in the locker room. But Artemi said "THIS is the player I'm taking all the way to the top!"

He is probably feeling very sad these past few days that his project didn't work out.

I blamed Kravtsov for dragging down Panarin's offense when they were together.

Artemi is a beacon of failure so maybe I was looking at it wrong and Panarin is the reason why Kravtsov never put it together.

 

[Synergy27]

I blamed Kravtsov for dragging down Panarin's offense when they were together.

Artemi is a beacon of failure so maybe I was looking at it wrong and Panarin is the reason why Kravtsov never put it together.

You are kidding but there is probably a bit of truth in there. VK is a talented kid, but he’s not a transcendent talent like Bread. I am as anti Bread as they come, but there’s no denying his talent. VK isn’t good enough to emulate Bread.

I don’t think it’s outlandish at all to suggest that VK may have picked up some bad habits from his countryman.

 

[duhmetreE]

I blamed Kravtsov for dragging down Panarin's offense when they were together.

Artemi is a beacon of failure so maybe I was looking at it wrong and Panarin is the reason why Kravtsov never put it together.

You’re like the opposite of @EdJovanovski and his baby, Kravtsov.

Your Panarin hate is impressive