Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[nbwingsfan]

You can't in one sentence say that the defendant had 'in no way shape or form an intent to kill" and then in the next sentence acknowledge that he went head hunting with his skate blade. Those two thoughts are diametrically opposed.

If someone walks around a crowded subway car swinging a knife back and forth would you say he didn't have the intent to kill? I sure wouldn't. Killing someone is a very forseeable outcome in that scenario. Same with this situation. Going after a guy's head wtih your skate blade could easily lead to the outcome that happened.

Wait, you actually believe he PURPOSELY swung his skate blade at a guys face?

I can at least buy some people believing he was reckless and should have been in more control of his skates (even though it was clearly unintentional and he lost balance) but to say he purposely tried to kick him in the neck?

Some people realllyyyy need a villain I guess

 

[OG Eberle]

Also, gonna post this here because people keep bringing up "intent" and "immediate remorse" as reasons for this not being manslaughter or being a waste of time.

This is taken from the Crown Prosectution Service of the UK

Where an unlawful killing is done without an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm, the suspect is to be charged with manslaughter not murder. Apart from the absence of the requisite intent, all other elements of the offence are the same as for murder.

Don't reckon many people see incidents of skate kicking in hockey. Nevermind previous videos of the same person doing it previously.

Again, I'm not judging either way as I don't have any desire to watch the video, but if he threw his leg in a unnatural way and has previous history of doing this unnatural movement in a hit or fall, it is the definition of manslaughter. Intent matters not at all.

 

[tny760]

I dont see that at all. His left skate clicks skates with the other teams player this twists his body. His right foot is off the ice instride, the skate being a weight at this point moves with the force of his twist.

He was making contact with the other player and I just don't see how anyone could think he would even know Johnson was going to be behind him. So even if he in fact kicked his leg out it was to try and control his spin not hit someone.

that's what i thought at first but watching another clip today slowed down, i feel like i see numbers the whole way and no rotation off of the skate contact. i see right skate on the ice the whole way, left skate kicking up which is inexcusable in my opinion

i'd like to think "which skate hit him" is an easily confirmable fact for an actual investigation but i don't know right now

 

[Look Up]

Wow

 

[shakes the clown]

Wait, you actually believe he PURPOSELY swung his skate blade at a guys face?

I can at least buy some people believing he was reckless and should have been in more control of his skates (even though it was clearly unintentional and he lost balance) but to say he purposely tried to kick him in the neck?

Some people realllyyyy need a villain I guess

seriously? Of course he 100% intended to him with the skate. Did you even watch the video?

I don't buy the argument that he lost his balance causing him to violently kick his leg back into the guy's neck. Played hockey for way too many decades to buy that nonsense.

 

[nbwingsfan]

What you're doing is the definition of moving the goal posts. Bit odd given the brevity of the situation.

No one is saying "high PIM players are menaces to life/health".

The fact you latched onto that vs previously "using a stick as a weapon" and "history of kicking others with his skate" out of the 3 sentences he wrote shows you probablty don't intend to have a constructive discussion here.

Using a stick as a weapon is a headline grab for a spear that we see multiple times every season in the NHL.

“History of kicking people with his skate” was ONE time missing a check and his shin collided with another players knee…

Again, it’s changing what actually happened to fit an agenda.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I dont see that at all. His left skate clicks skates with the other teams player this twists his body. His right foot is off the ice instride, the skate being a weight at this point moves with the force of his twist.

He was making contact with the other player and I just don't see how anyone could think he would even know Johnson was going to be behind him. So even if he in fact kicked his leg out it was to try and control his spin not hit someone.

What people are also missing is if you watch the video, he is also impacted by the opposing player in his chest directly after his skate is clipped. You can see Petgrave's torso move from the force of it.

 

[Legionnaire11]

I haven't, and won't, watch it the clip. I'd heard the other player was perhaps somewhat careless, but that it was a completely accidental play. To charge this player with manslaughter would be akin Chris Therien having been charged if the slap shot he took that struck Trent McCleary in the throat had killed him (granted it would have had Dr. Mulder not been so proactive and performed the tracheostomy in the tunnel to the locker room). This seems like an overreach to me.

I didn't watch the video for a while because I felt like you did, no way could it be intentional and all of the reactions were overreaction... but a friend convinced me to watch it and WOW, it was definitely not a natural movement that I've ever seen in 30+ years of watching this sport at all levels. I still came away thinking that it was certainly unintentional, but extremely reckless and while I wouldn't have recommended criminal punishment, I certainly understand that it's worth looking at from that angle.

 

[nbwingsfan]

seriously? Of course he 100% intended to him with the skate. Did you even watch the video?

I don't buy the argument that he lost his balance causing him to violently kick his leg back into the guy's neck. Played hockey for way too many decades to buy that nonsense.

So you think he’s just a murdering psychopath who decides he’s going to kill someone on the ice today?

Also how many videos of flailing skates need to be posted for you?

 

[Rafafouille]

Good. North America should do the same. No reason a dirty hit resulting in a concussion shouldn't come with assault charges.

 

[Neil Racki]

If you’re driving recklessly and get into an accident hitting another person walking down the street, that’s manslaughter.

Playing a contact sport = consent to contact (that would be illegal on a sidewalk)

better example IMO would be .. "If youre driving recklessly in a bumper car race ...."

'Reckless" would be based on a reasonable person under the circumstances. "Reasonable person" = average player, "circumstances" = written and unwritten rules of sport but generally accepted acts

 

[OG Eberle]

Wait, you actually believe he PURPOSELY swung his skate blade at a guys face?

I can at least buy some people believing he was reckless and should have been in more control of his skates (even though it was clearly unintentional and he lost balance) but to say he purposely tried to kick him in the neck?

Some people realllyyyy need a villain I guess

Mate, go read what manslaughter is and put the shovel down.

Lack of intent is literally the difference between manslaughter and murder.

If it helps you to conceptualize this better and not berate other posters when you don't have a clear understanding of what that difference is; if someone has 3-4 drinks and drives home 2km from buddies house, hits another car on a back road and they flip into the ditch and die from the trauma, it's manslaughter.

Zero intent. Complete remorse. Recklessness of ones own actions led to the unintentional death of another. Doesn't absolve of legal responsibility and consequences.

Flailing your leg into the sky on hits when literally no other player in hockey does this, could definitely be argued as recklessness of ones actions/body.

 

[Laus723]

We definitely haven’t seen all the evidence, I’ve seen a grainy video that the maker said is evidence of a front kick, but I can’t say for sure at all. More evidence will come out, not passing judgement either way about this atm.

 

[tucker3434]

I don't like the precedent. I think criminal liability during sporting events should be limited to clearly intentional acts outside the scope of the game. This should be a civil matter.

 

[AndreRoy]

What a dumb arrest, even Johnsons teammates who were in the ice and bench said it was an accident.

Who’s to say they got a good view of what happened? They were playing/watching the game, not focusing on Petgrave in an effort to discern intent from an action they had no idea he would take. And their initial instinct would be to assume that nobody would possibly do something so unbelievably reckless and dangerous intentionally. So of course they stick up for their fellow player who they think was simply involved in a tragic accident.

All that said this may be a difficult case to prove in court, though the fact that there now appears to be documented video history of him kicking or attempting to kick opponents with his skate will definitely help. Assuming the British legal system is reasonably similar to America’s (which to my understanding it is in some areas and isn’t in others) the case will hinge on his lawyer’s ability to introduce doubt as to his gross recklessness by claiming that he was contacted before running his skate into Johnson. Unfortunately at least the publicly available video is of sufficiently low quality that it may be difficult to disprove this. Video of him kicking other opponents could certainly be used (at least in the US) to speak to his state of mind, but the prosecution would still have to prove that this kick was also intentional and not the result of a collision, and that may be difficult to do.

In any event there’s certainly cause for an arrest, and probably even a trial if they think the case has a decent chance of success.

 

[Mike C]

Adam Johnson: Manslaughter arrest over ice hockey player's death

A man is held in connection with the death of Nottingham Panthers player Adam Johnson.

www.bbc.co.uk

Only broke in UK a few minutes ago. Arrested for Manslaughter.

Suspicion of manslaughter

 

[Mirka the Turka]

How many video compilations have to be posted of peoples' skates going in wild, "reckless" directions when falling (including the Richard Zednik incident) before you guys give this shit up

Really using the Zednik case where his own teammate that wasn't even looking at him is the same as this incident?

Its quite scary how someone can watch a clear video of a guy intentionally using his leg with a skate to kick a guy and delude themselves to think it was accidental. I hope you never end up on a jury panel of a murderer.

 

[KingAlfie11]

Was it reckless yes. Was it premeditated no. It was a freak accident.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

When you lose your balance, have you ever kicked your leg up 6' into the air? It is wreckless.

Yes I have.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Mate, go read what manslaughter is and put the shovel down.

Lack of intent is literally the difference between manslaughter and murder.

If it helps you to conceptualize this better and not berate other posters when you don't have a clear understanding of what that difference is; if someone has 3-4 drinks and drives home 2km from buddies house, hits another car on a back road and they flip into the ditch and die from the trauma, it's manslaughter.

Zero intent. Complete remorse. Recklessness of ones own actions led to the unintentional death of another. Doesn't absolve of legal responsibility and consequences.

Flailing your leg into the sky on hits when literally no other player in hockey does this, could definitely be argued as recklessness of ones actions/body.

Sure if you contain this falsehood, it might seem pausible.

 

[The Burdened]

Was it reckless yes. Was it premeditated no. It was a freak accident.

if it were premeditated, it would be murder.

this is why we have manslaughter.

 

[Ulysses31]

absolutely right call

 

[nbwingsfan]

Mate, go read what manslaughter is and put the shovel down.

Lack of intent is literally the difference between manslaughter and murder.

If it helps you to conceptualize this better and not berate other posters when you don't have a clear understanding of what that difference is; if someone has 3-4 drinks and drives home 2km from buddies house, hits another car on a back road and they flip into the ditch and die from the trauma, it's manslaughter.

Zero intent. Complete remorse. Recklessness of ones own actions led to the unintentional death of another. Doesn't absolve of legal responsibility and consequences.

Flailing your leg into the sky on hits when literally no other player in hockey does this, could definitely be argued as recklessness of ones actions/

Your example is horrible.

If I’m carrying a knife e from one room to another and trip into my friend with it, it’s non manslaughter is it?


Comparing this to driving drunk is truly something else.

 

[D1az]

Given how weirdly his leg came up and that he had quite a tough record, and also indication of that he has tried this "trick" before, I'd say that the only unintentional part was the death, but he definitely did that on purpose.
Manslaughter and a conviction is what is needed for justice to be served.

MSN

 

[Beerz]

The guy was reckless.... there was video of him doing this in past.

He should get max penalty under the law.