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Tawnos said:
Craig Simpson having a Gretzky-level playoffs in 1990 is the thing that put the Oilers over the top. Not that Messier was a slouch or anything.
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Mark Messier is one of the top 5 players all time. Not even a question. AND one of the top 3 Rangers of all time (1994 game 6 Devils enough said).

We actually had a poster named Amazing Kreiderman last night who doesn’t think he deserves his jersey retired
 
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Nopuckluck said:
Mark Messier is one of the top 5 players all time. Not even a question. AND one of the top 3 Rangers of all time (1994 game 6 Devils enough said).

We actually had a poster named Amazing Kreiderman last night who doesn’t think he deserves his jersey retired
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I’m not saying anything to dispute that. Just pointing out that, while Messier was an important part of that 1990 team, they still needed someone else who had an insane playoffs to win. If Craig Simpson is his normal self, the Oilers dynasty sits at 4 Cups in 5 years instead of 5 in 7 and no one talks about how the Oilers could win without Gretzky, but not Messier. Simpson’s PPG that playoffs was 80% higher than his career average.

It dovetails with what @Machinehead is saying about how good Messier was as a hockey player gets swamped by the talk about his leadership. That talk about his leadership also obscures some of the story of the 1990 Oilers.
 
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Nopuckluck said:
Mark Messier is one of the top 5 players all time. Not even a question. AND one of the top 3 Rangers of all time (1994 game 6 Devils enough said).

We actually had a poster named Amazing Kreiderman last night who doesn’t think he deserves his jersey retired
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I would like to see this post. I refuse to believe that's what was actually said and/or was a serious remark.
 
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My only thing with Messier is that some of his tactics in the room from the 80's and 90's just aren't viable now. There's too much money in this game now and these guys all know what they're worth. They're just not going to fall in line with a fellow player screaming at them anymore. Maybe a coach, but not a player. So when it's suggested that we should bring something like that back, or that the current leadership isn't good enough because they're not Messier, I think those ideas are outdated.

I would never suggest or never meant to suggest that he isn't all-time great and respected in the game.
 
I feel we are overlooking the competitiveness that Mess brought to the ice. Yes he said the right things but that guy battled. He dropped them if the team needed a spark, and then it looked like a yard sale with the equipment all over the ice. He had timely points, timely hits, momentum swinging shifts. He was also intimidating, which probably gave the boys a little swagger.

I think that was what inspired his teammates.
 
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DutchShamrock said:
I feel we are overlooking the competitiveness that Mess brought to the ice. Yes he said the right things but that guy battled. He dropped them if the team needed a spark, and then it looked like a yard sale with the equipment all over the ice. He had timely points, timely hits, momentum swinging shifts. He was also intimidating, which probably gave the boys a little swagger.

I think that was what inspired his teammates.
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This is true.

Another thing about leadership, at least in my opinion, is that professionalism on the ice is always going to outweigh being vocal in the room. Look at Jonathan Toews. He's considered, at this point, (fair or not) to be one of the best leaders ever, and I don't think the guy has ever yelled in his life.

Messier had that, and that can be applied to today.
 
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Machinehead said:
My only thing with Messier is that some of his tactics in the room from the 80's and 90's just aren't viable now. There's too much money in this game now and these guys all know what they're worth. They're just not going to fall in line with a fellow player screaming at them anymore. Maybe a coach, but not a player. So when it's suggested that we should bring something like that back, or that the current leadership isn't good enough because they're not Messier, I think those ideas are outdated.

I would never suggest or never meant to suggest that he isn't all-time great and respected in the game.
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I really don't think Messier was screaming his head off in the Oilers locker room all that much. There were a number of very strong Alpha personalities on that team. One thing that I think gets overlooked is how a lot of those players grew up together--Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Fuhr, Coffey, Lowe, Anderson pretty much out of two/three straight drafts. As well Mark's development into a star player didn't happen overnight--it took a few years. And guys like Semenko and McSorley could have beat the f*** out of him and getting through to Tikkanen if he didn't want to listen would have been nigh on impossible. That guy moved to his own drummer. What made the Oilers a great team was that there were so many different elements and Messier was always second banana as long as Gretzky was there. Messier on really becomes the leader in Edmonton after Pocklington trades Gretzky to McNall's Kings. Those Edmonton teams though weren't just good they were big, mean and nasty and super tough.
 
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eco's bones said:
I really don't think Messier was screaming his head off in the Oilers locker room all that much. There were a number of very strong Alpha personalities on that team. One thing that I think gets overlooked is how a lot of those players grew up together--Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Fuhr, Coffey, Lowe, Anderson pretty much out of two/three straight drafts. As well Mark's development into a star player didn't happen overnight--it took a few years. And guys like Semenko and McSorley could have beat the **** out of him and getting through to Tikkanen if he didn't want to listen would have been nigh on impossible. That guy moved to his own drummer. What made the Oilers a great team was that there were so many different elements and Messier was always second banana as long as Gretzky was there. Messier on really becomes the leader in Edmonton after Pocklington trades Gretzky to McNall's Kings. Those Edmonton teams though weren't just good they were big, mean and nasty and super tough.
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They were the best team ever IMO.

They were a Cup team without Gretzky in 1990, and then in the mid-80's you add a 200-point player to a Stanley Cup roster.

That's out of order, but you know what I mean.
 
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Leetch3 said:
Jesus are people actually debating if messier was good? Can we next discuss if babe Ruth could play baseball?
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We're discussing Messier.

I'm not sure it's a debate over whether or not he was good.

Richard Banger said:
Messier is what kreider would look like if he played pissed off and balls to the walls every shift. And had better hands.
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This is just not fair to Kreider.

If all Kreider had to do to be a Hall of Famer was work hard, he'd be a Hall of Famer.
 
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Machinehead said:
We're discussing Messier.

I'm not sure it's a debate over whether or not he was good.


This is just not fair to Kreider.

If all Kreider had to do to be a Hall of Famer was work hard, he'd be a Hall of Famer.
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Kreider can't be the player he should be in this NHL. He's the example of the evolved power forward. I love kreider and I accept who he is as a player. I'm just saying Messier and Kreider have a lot of similarities.
 
Richard Banger said:
Kreider can't be the player he should be in this NHL. He's the example of the evolved power forward. I love kreider and I accept who he is as a player. I'm just saying Messier and Kreider have a lot of similarities.
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I mean, they're both...big?

I'm sorry, that's really the only one I'm seeing.
 
Machinehead said:
They were the best team ever IMO.

They were a Cup team without Gretzky in 1990, and then in the mid-80's you add a 200-point player to a Stanley Cup roster.

That's out of order, but you know what I mean.
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Well, to add on to my thing from earlier. The Oilers are really a different team after they traded Coffey, which happened in 1987 before Gretzky was gone. 87-88 was the first year that Tikkanen and Beukeboom really established themselves as key pieces. Then, one of the big stories of the 1990 Oilers was trading Jimmy Carson, who was part of the deal for Gretzky, for Klima, Graves, and Murphy. 2/3 of those pieces formed the Kid Line along with a rookie named Martin Gelinas. That line is often credited with sparking the Cup run. Also, Bill Ranford had taken over as the starter from Grant Fuhr. It was a lot of the same core with a fundamentally different surrounding cast.
 
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Tawnos said:
Well, to add on to my thing from earlier. The Oilers are really a different team after they traded Coffey, which happened in 1987 before Gretzky was gone. 87-88 was the first year that Tikkanen and Beukeboom really established themselves as key pieces. Then, one of the big stories of the 1990 Oilers was trading Jimmy Carson, who was part of the deal for Gretzky, for Klima, Graves, and Murphy. 2/3 of those pieces formed the Kid Line along with a rookie named Martin Gelinas. That line is often credited with sparking the Cup run. Also, Bill Ranford had taken over as the starter from Grant Fuhr. It was a lot of the same core with a fundamentally different surrounding cast.
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Don't get me started on Grant Fuhr, the fans from the 80's will hang me.
 
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Nopuckluck said:
Mark Messier is one of the top 5 players all time. Not even a question. AND one of the top 3 Rangers of all time (1994 game 6 Devils enough said).

We actually had a poster named Amazing Kreiderman last night who doesn’t think he deserves his jersey retired
Click to expand...

Ummm I agree that hes great and I have him behind gretzky, orr, Lemieux and Howe, but if hes top 5 ever then he has to be the best ranger ever and not top 3.
 
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Richard Banger said:
Kreider can't be the player he should be in this NHL. He's the example of the evolved power forward. I love kreider and I accept who he is as a player. I'm just saying Messier and Kreider have a lot of similarities.
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Kreider lacks the consistancy, tenacity and competitive fire that Messier had. He has half the heart that Mess had. Theres very few similarities between the two. They are both strong? One used it every game to compete and the other uses it 5 mins a game. I'm pretty near done with Kreider and his inconsistency,same with Hayes. Neither one will ever hit 65 points.
 
KreiderBomb said:
Ummm I agree that hes great and I have him behind gretzky, orr, Lemieux and Howe, but if hes top 5 ever then he has to be the best ranger ever and not top 3.
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He didn’t have the best Rangers career ever. Personally, I wouldn’t put him even top-5 when you isolate his Rangers career, but I tend not to account for Captaining a Cup team as part of that. Frank Boucher, Bill Cook, Andy Bathgate, Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, and Brian Leetch are all players I’d put ahead of him.
 
Tawnos said:
He didn’t have the best Rangers career ever. Personally, I wouldn’t put him even top-5 when you isolate his Rangers career, but I tend not to account for Captaining a Cup team as part of that. Frank Boucher, Bill Cook, Andy Bathgate, Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, and Brian Leetch are all players I’d put ahead of him.
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#Noonansgoal
 
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