Around the NHL - Part XXXVII

[Fitzy]

People like to shit on Arizona and for good reason, but then they turn to Quebec like it's a can't-lose proposition while the Ottawa Senators are only selling 40% of their tickets because every god damn Ottawa resident over the age of 30 is a Leafs fan.

Gonna have the same problem in an area saturated with Habs fans.

 

[New York RKY]

People like to shit on Arizona and for good reason, but then they turn to Quebec like it's a can't-lose proposition while the Ottawa Senators are only selling 40% of their tickets because every god damn Ottawa resident over the age of 30 is a Leafs fan.

Gonna have the same problem in an area saturated with Habs fans.

I think the Coyotes will have much better attendance in Tempe. I know a lot of college-age students that really like hockey but the arena in Glendale was just too far away from everything that they had no interest in going.

 

[Thirty One]

I think the Coyotes will have much better attendance in Tempe. I know a lot of college-age students that really like hockey but the arena in Glendale was just too far away from everything that they had no interest in going.

Yep, that's an issue in Ottawa as well.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

People like to shit on Arizona and for good reason, but then they turn to Quebec like it's a can't-lose proposition while the Ottawa Senators are only selling 40% of their tickets because every god damn Ottawa resident over the age of 30 is a Leafs fan.

Gonna have the same problem in an area saturated with Habs fans.

I think the best solution at the moment is probably Houston. Kansas City might also be viable but Im not sure how it’d work with the blues or their arena situation

 

[LokiDog]

I’ve gotta say, the coaching carousel in Edmonton doesn’t inspire me with much confidence that things will change. I hate to say it, because I know it’s “controversial” but I think McDavid is one of the most overrated players imaginable. His SKILL SET is all world, but he is a very flawed hockey player who isn’t maturing his game the way the greats do, and frankly he feasts against weaker opponents and on a top PP unit with Draisaitl.

It isn’t all McDavid’s fault - the team is built poorly and built to feed him points - but as much as I HATED Sid (I don’t hate McDavid at all) he FORCED you to respect him with how he just kept making his game better and more well rounded and was a competitor. McDavid isn’t doing that, in my eyes. He seems more content to be the type of guy who says “I score 150 points, what more do you want from me?!” than to say “I’m going to become a top five two-way center in the league because I have the tools to do it and my team will be better for it”.

Frankly, I think the list of players I would take over McDavid at 12.5M is decently long and 99% of the hockey world would disagree with me. But while I see the incredible speed and hands, I don’t see him being able to take over and inflict his will (team would win more) and I certainly don’t see him doing that against the tighter checking teams or in the playoffs. He’ll always rack up his points but I think the notion that he is the undisputed best player in the world is a bit overstated. The top offensive talent in the world? Sure. The best hockey player? Not in my books.

 

[will1066]

Big time matchup tonight, Bolts at Avs

 

[CLW]

I’ve gotta say, the coaching carousel in Edmonton doesn’t inspire me with much confidence that things will change. I hate to say it, because I know it’s “controversial” but I think McDavid is one of the most overrated players imaginable. His SKILL SET is all world, but he is a very flawed hockey player who isn’t maturing his game the way the greats do, and frankly he feasts against weaker opponents and on a top PP unit with Draisaitl.

It isn’t all McDavid’s fault - the team is built poorly and built to feed him points - but as much as I HATED Sid (I don’t hate McDavid at all) he FORCED you to respect him with how he just kept making his game better and more well rounded and was a competitor. McDavid isn’t doing that, in my eyes. He seems more content to be the type of guy who says “I score 150 points, what more do you want from me?!” than to say “I’m going to become a top five two-way center in the league because I have the tools to do it and my team will be better for it”.

Frankly, I think the list of players I would take over McDavid at 12.5M is decently long and 99% of the hockey world would disagree with me. But while I see the incredible speed and hands, I don’t see him being able to take over and inflict his will (team would win more) and I certainly don’t see him doing that against the tighter checking teams or in the playoffs. He’ll always rack up his points but I think the notion that he is the undisputed best player in the world is a bit overstated. The top offensive talent in the world? Sure. The best hockey player? Not in my books.

Thank you! I'm totally with you on this. I admire players with IMMENSE talent, but that doesn't necessarily make them good team players or having them makes for a good team.

 

[Crease]

Tempe is better than Glendale, but I’m not convinced it’s better than Houston, Kansas City, or Quebec City. I know Bettman works for the owners and not the other way around, but I can’t help feeling he’s leading the campaign to stay in Arizona.

 

[mike14]

I’ve gotta say, the coaching carousel in Edmonton doesn’t inspire me with much confidence that things will change. I hate to say it, because I know it’s “controversial” but I think McDavid is one of the most overrated players imaginable. His SKILL SET is all world, but he is a very flawed hockey player who isn’t maturing his game the way the greats do, and frankly he feasts against weaker opponents and on a top PP unit with Draisaitl.

It isn’t all McDavid’s fault - the team is built poorly and built to feed him points - but as much as I HATED Sid (I don’t hate McDavid at all) he FORCED you to respect him with how he just kept making his game better and more well rounded and was a competitor. McDavid isn’t doing that, in my eyes. He seems more content to be the type of guy who says “I score 150 points, what more do you want from me?!” than to say “I’m going to become a top five two-way center in the league because I have the tools to do it and my team will be better for it”.

Frankly, I think the list of players I would take over McDavid at 12.5M is decently long and 99% of the hockey world would disagree with me. But while I see the incredible speed and hands, I don’t see him being able to take over and inflict his will (team would win more) and I certainly don’t see him doing that against the tighter checking teams or in the playoffs. He’ll always rack up his points but I think the notion that he is the undisputed best player in the world is a bit overstated. The top offensive talent in the world? Sure. The best hockey player? Not in my books.

Don't really disagree with any of this, although I believe this is a case where your first sentence in the each of the first two paragraphs really has an effect.
Compare the 'veteran' presence in Sid's early locker rooms, as well as the apparent direction of GMs and coaches, compared to what's gone on in Edmonton. Who's really been around for McD to learn from? Who's setting him up for success by mentoring him through all the things beyond pure skill that you need to be successful? There's just nothing in EDM and there really hasn't been since day-1. It's failed 1st rounders and journeymen.

Now some responsibility still rests with McD, growth and maturity can come from within as well as outside; but with no mentors or leaders it's very hard to develop that your own, because there's no one to guide you. I'm sure McD comes in to a season thinking that he's worked on parts of his game, but if no-one is providing useful feedback beyond W-L it doesn't help with development.
Skill is great, but it still needs and environment of structure, development and process (as well as a willingness to work) in order to be fully realized.

The questions for me are whether that environment can be created for McDavid (either in EDM or elsewhere), and if it can, is it too late anyway because he's missed a large developmental window?

 

[New York RKY]

Tempe is better than Glendale, but I’m not convinced it’s better than Houston, Kansas City, or Quebec City. I know Bettman works for the owners and not the other way around, but I can’t help feeling he’s leading the campaign to stay in Arizona.

Not sure if you realize just how populated Arizona is (and I don’t mean that in a rude way). I know I didn’t when I first moved out here from NJ. In fact if you look at 2022 population, Houston is like the 4th largest city and Phoenix is the 5th. When you take Phoenix plus Tempe the population is only 400k less then Houston. I wouldn’t be surprised if we pass Houston in the next couple of years with the way the housing market is and the number of people coming out here from California.

The market is there, people from other states, especially the east coast, just don’t see it. I get it because I was one of those people as well.

 

[LokiDog]

Don't really disagree with any of this, although I believe this is a case where your first sentence in the each of the first two paragraphs really has an effect.
Compare the 'veteran' presence in Sid's early locker rooms, as well as the apparent direction of GMs and coaches, compared to what's gone on in Edmonton. Who's really been around for McD to learn from? Who's setting him up for success by mentoring him through all the things beyond pure skill that you need to be successful? There's just nothing in EDM and there really hasn't been since day-1. It's failed 1st rounders and journeymen.

Now some responsibility still rests with McD, growth and maturity can come from within as well as outside; but with no mentors or leaders it's very hard to develop that your own, because there's no one to guide you. I'm sure McD comes in to a season thinking that he's worked on parts of his game, but if no-one is providing useful feedback beyond W-L it doesn't help with development.
Skill is great, but it still needs and environment of structure, development and process (as well as a willingness to work) in order to be fully realized.

The questions for me are whether that environment can be created for McDavid (either in EDM or elsewhere), and if it can, is it too late anyway because he's missed a large developmental window?

While the failings of the EDM organization are immense, I can’t look at McD as some helpless child in the situation either. For one thing, I’m sure he recognizes that Sid, heck even Ovie and Kovy, all became more defensively responsible and team first players as they matured. It doesn’t take special advisors to point that out; the hockey world acknowledges it. So I have a hard time accepting that, without proper mentoring he’s just out there going “I skate fast and score points! I didn’t know I was supposed to backcheck or play defense!”.

But he’s also been the chosen one since long before he came to Edmonton, so additionally I have a hard time believing the only possible mentors and advisors in his life are from the Edmonton organization. He’s Connor McDavid. I’m sure he can have as much advice from Gretz or Mess, or heck Mario, Stevie Y, Jags, even Sid in the off season, as he would like. Whether he seeks it out or is content to lay the blame for the Oilers lack of success 100% on others is up to him. He and Drai can win every scoring title and Hart from now til they’re 35+ if they want… or they could make concerted efforts to become all around effective players and score 100 points instead of 140 and not only help their team win more, but also lead a culture shift that makes the rest of the room get better as well.

Until they decide to do that, they both will be overrated to me. The only reason I specifically brought out McDavid is that he’s the unanimous best player alive, not Drai. He also makes 4M more per year and is el capitan.

 

[mike14]

While the failings of the EDM organization are immense, I can’t look at McD as some helpless child in the situation either. For one thing, I’m sure he recognizes that Sid, heck even Ovie and Kovy, all became more defensively responsible and team first players as they matured. It doesn’t take special advisor to point that out; the hockey world acknowledges it. So I have a hard time accepting that, without proper mentoring he’s just out there going “I skate fast and score points! I didn’t know I was supposed to backcheck or play defense!”. But he’s also been the chosen one since long before he came to Edmonton, so additionally I have a hard time believing the only possible mentors and advisors in his life are from the Edmonton organization. He’s Connor McDavid. I’m sure he can have as much advice from Gretz or Mess, or heck Mario, Stevie Y, Jags, even Sid in the off season, as he would like. Whether he seeks it out or is content to lay the blame for the Oilers lack of success 100% on others is up to him. He and Drai can win every scoring title and Hart from now til they’re 35+ if they want… or they could make concerted efforts to become all around effective players and score 100 points instead of 140 and not only help their team win more, but also lead a culture shift that makes the rest of the room get better as well.

Until they decide to do that, they both will be overrated to me. The only reason I specifically brought out McDavid is that he’s the unanimous best player alive, not Drai. He also makes 4M more per year and is el capitan.

Agreed, which is why I said he shoulders some responsibility, and that even if you improved the environment there's no guarantee it leads to a better player.
My main point though was around the locker room. Guys like Gretz, Mess whoever can tell them him about what they did, but none of them can show him. Gary Roberts, Mark Recchi etc showed Sid what it took day-to-day, shift-to-shift, not in the abstract through a phone call and a chat in the off season. Even if McD is trying to improve his game, where's the feedback on what's working and what's not coming from? I have a hard time believing that he's just choosing not to play defence (at least until the last few months), so when we drop in the term 'defensively responsible' what does that actually mean to McD and the Oilers as constructed? Is it more defensivly responsible to have a speedster like McD poised to flee the zone with the puck, making the D focus on covering him more than moving the puck, or better off having him covering a man in front which allows the D to be more active (I don't actually know the answer). Does he just ignore instructions if he doesn't agree with them as long as it develops his game?
McD can (and should) be a catalyst to get this answered/sorted out, but I honestly think he doesn't really know how to (and may not be interested), and a lot of that comes back to the mess of a lockerroom he's had since day 1.
Is he responsible? Of course. Has he been put in a position to help his success? Hell no

 

[will1066]

Jeff Carter has really let himself go from an appearance standpoint

 

[LokiDog]

Agreed, which is why I said he shoulders some responsibility, and that even if you improved the environment there's no guarantee it leads to a better player.
My main point though was around the locker room. Guys like Gretz, Mess whoever can tell them him about what they did, but none of them can show him. Gary Roberts, Mark Recchi etc showed Sid what it took day-to-day, shift-to-shift, not in the abstract through a phone call and a chat in the off season. Even if McD is trying to improve his game, where's the feedback on what's working and what's not coming from? I have a hard time believing that he's just choosing not to play defence (at least until the last few months), so when we drop in the term 'defensively responsible' what does that actually mean to McD and the Oilers as constructed? Is it more defensivly responsible to have a speedster like McD poised to flee the zone with the puck, making the D focus on covering him more than moving the puck, or better off having him covering a man in front which allows the D to be more active (I don't actually know the answer). Does he just ignore instructions if he doesn't agree with them as long as it develops his game?
McD can (and should) be a catalyst to get this answered/sorted out, but I honestly think he doesn't really know how to (and may not be interested), and a lot of that comes back to the mess of a lockerroom he's had since day 1.
Is he responsible? Of course. Has he been put in a position to help his success? Hell no

For sure, and my point wasn’t entirely about the culpability involved, but the fact that I just don’t fully understand why he is considered the hands down best player in the world. Especially at a 12.5M cap hit. Barkov is the reigning Selke winner and has 21 goals and 40 points in 34 games. McDavid has 23 goals and 61 points in 43 games. So Barkov has the higher goals per game and is at 1.18 points per game and McD at 1.42 points per game. I don’t know if 20 extra points (in 9 more games) outweighs a Selke level center anchoring your top line. I’d probably strongly consider Barkov at 10M until 2030 over McDavid at 12.5M and looking for a raise in 5 years. Likewise, I may take Makar/Fox at 9/9.5M. Depending on what MacKinnon costs, I may consider him. I may consider Kuch. And the point isn’t to argue over which guys are and aren’t better than him, but that I must have missed what it was in particular that led to his coronation.

For example, since McD entered the league he’s at 1.41 points per game. Kucherov is at 1.24, Marchand and Crosby are at 1.15. They’re both vastly superior all around players who make significantly less money. Sure, age and such are considerations as well, but the difference in production vs overall impact and cap hit (and thus what else you can afford) leads to pretty different outcomes for their teams.

 

[will1066]

We're gonna fall to third in the division by the end of the night.

 

[LokiDog]

We're gonna fall to third in the division by the end of the night.

All because of that Aho, Sebastian.

 

[NYR94]

Dreger on during intermission saying Oilers don't have enough assets to add both a goalie and a top-4 right handed D, which he believes are their most pressing needs.

Also LeBrun thinks Giordano gets moved. Florida keeping a close eye on him.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Dreger on during intermission saying Oilers don't have enough assets to add both a goalie and a top-4 right handed D, which he believes are their most pressing needs.

Also LeBrun thinks Giordano gets moved. Florida keeping a close eye on him.

So McDavid for Georgiev and Lundkvist

 

[NYR94]

Also these guys on TSN talking about a player like Zegras or McDavid literally carrying the puck up the ice on their stick (basically an extension of the Michigan goal) and saying you couldn't defend against it without taking a penalty. Uh, couldn't you still stick check them?

 

[will1066]

Also these guys on TSN talking about a player like Zegras or McDavid literally carrying the puck up the ice on their stick (basically an extension of the Michigan goal) and saying you couldn't defend against it without taking a penalty. Uh, couldn't you still stick check them?

The league needs to instill a travel violation.

 

[LokiDog]

Also these guys on TSN talking about a player like Zegras or McDavid literally carrying the puck up the ice on their stick (basically an extension of the Michigan goal) and saying you couldn't defend against it without taking a penalty. Uh, couldn't you still stick check them?

Yes. And you could also check them. There is no way you could actually carry the puck a significant distance effectively, consistently doing that.

 

[mike14]

For sure, and my point wasn’t entirely about the culpability involved, but the fact that I just don’t fully understand why he is considered the hands down best player in the world. Especially at a 12.5M cap hit. Barkov is the reigning Selke winner and has 21 goals and 40 points in 34 games. McDavid has 23 goals and 61 points in 43 games. So Barkov has the higher goals per game and is at 1.18 points per game and McD at 1.42 points per game. I don’t know if 20 extra points (in 9 more games) outweighs a Selke level center anchoring your top line. I’d probably strongly consider Barkov at 10M until 2030 over McDavid at 12.5M and looking for a raise in 5 years. Likewise, I may take Makar/Fox at 9/9.5M. Depending on what MacKinnon costs, I may consider him. I may consider Kuch. And the point isn’t to argue over which guys are and aren’t better than him, but that I must have missed what it was in particular that led to his coronation.

I'm assuming the coronation came after back-to-back 100 pts seasons as 20 and 21 year old plus 2 x ross, 2 x pearson and 1 x hart in the same time-frame plus the pre-draft hype and multiple highlight reel incrediby skilled goals, along with a bit of a void being created by Crosby/Ovi aging a bit.
And I agree with you that Barkvov at $10m seems like better value based on the past few season, but the past few seasons also seem to show that McD is not the 'hands down best player' at least when you look beyond mainstream media, and a quick glance at the stat sheet. There's plenty of chatter around places like HF about whether he's the best overall player, he's 'only' won 1 of the last 3 Hart's, and is unlikely to win this one meaning that people see the value in other players

 

[will1066]

Just on the Coyotes' situation, the renaming from Phoenix to Arizona really was shrewd in hindsight as it gives them the flexibility to move around the state.

 

[Hire Sather]

Penguins are winning 60

 

[17futurecap]

The Habs have won 8 of 46 games, that’s amazing.