Around the NHL - Part II

[Machinehead]

Tampa has now traded away 6 of their 8 players drafted in the first round this decade, leaving only Vasi and Foote

We have more Tampa first rounders from this decade than Tampa does.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

We have more Tampa first rounders from this decade than Tampa does.

People always laud Tampa's drafting and calling it flawless but they seem to forget picks like Connolly and Koekkoek.

 

[Machinehead]

People always laud Tampa's drafting and calling it flawless but they seem to forget picks like Connolly and Koekkoek.

Oh, they blow in the first round. That shouldn't be glossed over.

They get away with it because the Yzerman-era Lightning are the best second round and later team of all-time.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Oh, they blow in the first round. That shouldn't be glossed over.

They get away with it because the Yzerman-era Lightning are the best second round and later team of all-time.

Yeah. They have been very lucky with Point and Kucherov.

 

[Machinehead]

Talk about Filip Chytil struggling in the NHL - at basically the same age (Chytil was a super young pick and Zadina was a super old pick) Filip Zadina is struggling in the AHL.

Went to the WJC to break out of his slump and did f*** all.

It's not often I'm right about things, but I said from the getgo I never liked him.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. They have been very lucky with Point and Kucherov.

To an extent, but I hesitate to call it luck when a team connects over and over again.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

To an extent, but I hesitate to call it luck when a team connects over and over again.

The luck isn't so much them picking these players, but more those players still being available where they were picked. Especially Kucherov who should never have fallen to the 2nd

 

[Machinehead]

The luck isn't so much them picking these players, but more those players still being available where they were picked. Especially Kucherov who should never have fallen to the 2nd

That's absolutely true for Kucherov.

GM's gonna GM when they see Russians, although that's going away the last couple of years.

 

[Machinehead]

There has to be a word for a player between elite and generational.

Like Nathan MacKinnon and Drew Doughty, for example. I honestly can't say they're generational to me, but they're also clearly better than players I consider elite.

What would that word be?

 

[Irishguy42]

There has to be a word for a player between elite and generational.

Like Nathan MacKinnon and Drew Doughty, for example. I honestly can't say they're generational to me, but they're also clearly better than players I consider elite.

What would that word be?

No. They're elite.

The problem is that there are too many people currently crowding the "elite" grouping.

 

[Machinehead]

No. They're elite.

The problem is that there are too many people currently crowding the "elite" grouping.

To me, elite is an undisputed 1C or 1D. Most teams should have one.

On the other hand, very few teams have a generational player.

Nobody really has a MacKinnon or a Doughty, but I don't see them as being high enough on all-time lists to be considered generational.

 

[Inferno]

To me, elite is an undisputed 1C or 1D. Most teams should have one.

On the other hand, very few teams have a generational player.

Nobody really has a MacKinnon or a Doughty, but I don't see them as being high enough on all-time lists to be considered generational.

Franchise.

 

[Machinehead]

Aaron Judge is a better example.

Nobody has a player like Aaron Judge. Nobody has ever had a player like Aaron Judge. He's better than elite. Giacarlo Stanton is an elite player. He's objectively worse than Judge.

But is Judge generational? I would lean towards no. He's not Mike Trout. He's probably not Mookie Betts or Clayton Kershaw either. He's not a top 3 player this decade.

 

[Machinehead]

Franchise.

I like this.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I like this.

So...

Generational
Franchise
Elite
Top pair/line

 

[Machinehead]

So...

Generational
Franchise
Elite
Top pair/line

When you put it this way, I don't remember the Rangers ever having an elite player. Not in my lifetime.

Leetch was franchise. Messier was franchise. Hank is a generational goaltender. Jagr was generational.

Kreider, Stepan, McDonagh, Gaborik, Nash, etc. were all in the 4th category when they were here.

Maybe old Gretzky?

 

[Machinehead]

Now that I mention it, Leetch is another great example.

It would be disingenuous to call Leetch a generational defenseman, but it would be insulting to call him an elite defenseman.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Now that I mention it, Leetch is another great example.

It would be disingenuous to call Leetch a generational defenseman, but it would be insulting to call him an elite defenseman.

Leetch is the perfect example of a franchise player with this ranking

 

[GlasgowNewYorkRanger]

When you put it this way, I don't remember the Rangers ever having an elite player. Not in my lifetime.

Leetch was franchise. Messier was franchise. Hank is a generational goaltender. Jagr was generational.

Kreider, Stepan, McDonagh, Gaborik, Nash, etc. were all in the 4th category when they were here.

Maybe old Gretzky?

We saying that Mess was a franchise player for us, and with the Oilers he had most of his career as a generational talent?

 

[Machinehead]

We saying that Mess was a franchise player for us, and with the Oilers he had most of his career as a generational talent?

I don't think Messier was ever a generational talent.

He was clearly the 3rd best center of his generation and you could possibly make the argument he was 4th (Yzerman).

That said, he's also arguably a top 20 all-time player. That's why I think the distinction needs to be made.

 

[GlasgowNewYorkRanger]

I don't think Messier was ever a generational talent.

He was clearly the 3rd best center of his generation and you could possibly make the argument he was 4th (Yzerman).

That said, he's also arguably a top 20 all-time player. That's why I think the distinction needs to be made.

Regardless of him delivering the Holy Grail to us, and all bias aside, he's the most complete player I've ever seen.

I'd say if we are talking about comparing C's over a span of just his generation, and limiting Mess generationally because of that, you're looking at the some of the best players to ever play the game. It wasn't a bad era

I think Yzerman is overrated, personally, within that kind of conversation, but just my two cents.

 

[Machinehead]

Regardless of him delivering the Holy Grail to us, and all bias aside, he's the most complete player I've ever seen.

I'd say if we are talking about comparing C's over a span of just his generation, and limiting Mess generationally because of that, you're looking at the some of the best players to ever play the game. It wasn't a bad era

I think Yzerman is overrated, personally, within that kind of conversation, but just my two cents.

Really though, fair or not, it has a lot to do with competition.

In terms of goaltenders drafted since 2000, Lundqvist has utterly lapped the field. I don't think you can look at the statistics this generation and tell me he's not a generational goaltender.

Drop him into the 90's with Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy, and he becomes just another guy.

 

[GlasgowNewYorkRanger]

Really though, fair or not, it has a lot to do with competition.

In terms of goaltenders drafted since 2000, Lundqvist has utterly lapped the field. I don't think you can look at the statistics this generation and tell me he's not a generational goaltender.

Drop him into the 90's with Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy, and he becomes just another guy.

Yeah, I get where you're at. It's an interesting debate there.

Different eras do account for things certainly, and that can work both ways too.

Ol' Marty was a good goalie, but Hank has never been afforded the luxury to play with the likes of Dmen he got to play behind, in a system (for large chunks of Brodeur's career) designed to make your eyes bleed and turn on the basketball instead.

 

[apoptygma]

Talk about Filip Chytil struggling in the NHL - at basically the same age (Chytil was a super young pick and Zadina was a super old pick) Filip Zadina is struggling in the AHL.

Went to the WJC to break out of his slump and did **** all.

It's not often I'm right about things, but I said from the getgo I never liked him.

Descirping a junior prospect as goalscorer really makes me distrustfull of em, specialy if they do not also posess good skating and work-ethics. Might just be bad vibes from Gropp and some guys we signed out of CHL. Just feels like these players never live up to their potential unless
they are 1. overall kind of players like Stamkos or Macinnon, and even then Yakupov busted hard. Thid makes me very vary of Kaliev in this years draft.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Yeah, put Lundqvist in with Lemaire's system and devil defenders and you probably get a season record for shut outs. I don't want to marginalize Brodeur's accomplishments but he had a franchise catered to his strengths. This franchise treated this like the 80s oilers where they were going to leave the goalie on an island while they racked up 5 or 6 a night. Except they forgot to score 5 times.

As far as Messier, I'll steal a line from the recent ovie vs sid discussion. Only on HF is durability considered a negative. Although I think it's a hockey thing in general. Complete package and he did it forever. How about a new tier of Multi Generational for Gretzky, Howe, Borque and Mess? Hockey always evolves quickly, to have success over several era demonstrates you not only had success but you can stack up against the best of any time.