Around the NHL 9

[hockeyarena]

I wouldn't be surprised if Dorion screwed something up, the guy seems he should be managing a Boston Pizza.

 

[tbcwpg]

Maybe I’m not following something but why would that mean Vegas was led to believe the clause was voided?

Dadanov is a contracted employee for Vegas, essentially. They didn’t bother to look into the terms of the contract at all in nine months they had him?

“Hmmm it says Dadanov has a limited NTC … Ottawa never sent anything over so it must be voided! No need to check with his agent or anything…”

I just don’t understand how this even got past the NHL. Don’t at least they have lawyers to do due diligence on these sorts of things?

They got the impression from Ottawa that Dadynov didn't submit his 10 team no trade list on time. Whether that was because they assumed he didn't because Ottawa didn't mention it, or Dorion told them that he didn't submit it on time. Knowing Ottawa, it's just as likely it's the latter as the former. Vegas isn't without blame here, they didn't verify anything, but there's too many reporters out there saying that Vegas believed the clause was void to say that Vegas knew about it but just forgot. There was a report that Vegas told his agent about the pending trade and his agent said "Nope, Anaheim is on the list". Would Vegas make the trade anyway knowing that without believing the clause was invalid?

I don't think it's that unusual that someone didn't just decide to look at Dadynov's contract out of the blue one day just to re-read the terms in it. Doubly so if they had the idea the clause was void anyway. And of course, the agent is going to say they filed it on time regardless.

How does it get past the NHL? The NHL has several trades to process in quick succession when deals are made right before the 3pm deadline. They're not going to have lawyers look into each trade as it happens on the call and then process the trade after lawyers have looked at it. That would take days. The trade to Vegas was valid regardless of the M-NTC because Vegas was not on the list.

 

[cbcwpg]

From Freidman:

There is no distinct database for no-trade or no-move clauses.

Those are private, filed by the agent directly to a player’s NHL team. The league and the NHLPA are aware what contracts have protection, but there is no mandate specific details be known to them.

On a trade call, NHL Central Registry, which must approve all transactions, will ask if there is anything preventing a trade from happening. This is the specific point where teams are required to disclose all information about clauses. This is even more critical now that updated CBA rules dictate clauses travel with any player to a new team.

Dadonov’s three-year contract with Ottawa indicates a no-trade list had to submitted by Jan. 15, 2021 for Season One; July 1, 2021 for Season Two; and July 1, 2022 for Season Three. For the first year, Anaheim was on his no-trade, Vegas was not. For the second year, same thing.

The idea this season’s filing was late is incorrect. There is documentation of a filing on June 30, and communication indicating acknowledgment of that filing.

Dadonov was traded from Ottawa to Vegas on July 28, four weeks after submitting his list. One of two things appears to have happened on that call. Either everyone was told Dadonov hadn’t submitted the list, or, for some reason, the 2020-21 list was entered into evidence — leading to the assumption Dadonov had not filed on time, thereby voiding any protection.

There are at least two, possibly three situations in recent memory where players were traded because their lists weren’t filed on time. Then there’s this, where a player filed on time and was still traded.

****

I agree with Freidman where he goes on to say this has to change. He says everything needs to be recorded with NHL Central Registry, but the problem with this is it could be leaked, and there are Canadian born players for example, that are playing in the U.S. who have all the Canadian teams on no trade lists, and they don't want the public to know this.

 

[tbcwpg]

From Freidman:

There is no distinct database for no-trade or no-move clauses.

Those are private, filed by the agent directly to a player’s NHL team. The league and the NHLPA are aware what contracts have protection, but there is no mandate specific details be known to them.

On a trade call, NHL Central Registry, which must approve all transactions, will ask if there is anything preventing a trade from happening. This is the specific point where teams are required to disclose all information about clauses. This is even more critical now that updated CBA rules dictate clauses travel with any player to a new team.

Dadonov’s three-year contract with Ottawa indicates a no-trade list had to submitted by Jan. 15, 2021 for Season One; July 1, 2021 for Season Two; and July 1, 2022 for Season Three. For the first year, Anaheim was on his no-trade, Vegas was not. For the second year, same thing.

The idea this season’s filing was late is incorrect. There is documentation of a filing on June 30, and communication indicating acknowledgment of that filing.

Dadonov was traded from Ottawa to Vegas on July 28, four weeks after submitting his list. One of two things appears to have happened on that call. Either everyone was told Dadonov hadn’t submitted the list, or, for some reason, the 2020-21 list was entered into evidence — leading to the assumption Dadonov had not filed on time, thereby voiding any protection.

There are at least two, possibly three situations in recent memory where players were traded because their lists weren’t filed on time. Then there’s this, where a player filed on time and was still traded.

****

I agree with Freidman where he goes on to say this has to change. He says everything needs to be recorded with NHL Central Registry, but the problem with this is it could be leaked, and there are Canadian born players for example, that are playing in the U.S. who have all the Canadian teams on no trade lists, and they don't want the public to know this.

Agreed, it should be provided to the league. However, both of those scenarios would indicate that Ottawa was the main culprit here.

 

[JetsFan815]

^^ No Trade Lists should be public information and be accessible by fans on Capfriendly. The players don't like the fans knowing? Tough shit... you are getting paid millions (likely minimum 4 million+ if you are good enough to get a NTC), use those millions to get a thicker skin.

 

[snowkiddin]

They got the impression from Ottawa that Dadynov didn't submit his 10 team no trade list on time. Whether that was because they assumed he didn't because Ottawa didn't mention it, or Dorion told them that he didn't submit it on time. Knowing Ottawa, it's just as likely it's the latter as the former. Vegas isn't without blame here, they didn't verify anything, but there's too many reporters out there saying that Vegas believed the clause was void to say that Vegas knew about it but just forgot. There was a report that Vegas told his agent about the pending trade and his agent said "Nope, Anaheim is on the list". Would Vegas make the trade anyway knowing that without believing the clause was invalid?

I don't think it's that unusual that someone didn't just decide to look at Dadynov's contract out of the blue one day just to re-read the terms in it. Doubly so if they had the idea the clause was void anyway. And of course, the agent is going to say they filed it on time regardless.

How does it get past the NHL? The NHL has several trades to process in quick succession when deals are made right before the 3pm deadline. They're not going to have lawyers look into each trade as it happens on the call and then process the trade after lawyers have looked at it. That would take days. The trade to Vegas was valid regardless of the M-NTC because Vegas was not on the list.

My understanding was that Ottawa had notified Vegas there was an NTC but didn’t provide the list of teams. That could be wrong as I’ve been reading a lot about this and have been very busy with life the last few days so I might be mixing up conflicting reports. In any case, his NTC was on CapFriendly, so it was public knowledge.

So, to make things easier, Ottawa should’ve gave Vegas the list of teams. You’d think that would be something that would be necessary before the Vegas/Ottawa trade went through. But Ottawa not providing the list doesn’t absolve Vegas. Dadanov is no longer employed by Ottawa. The Senators relayed his contract information to his new employer. Ottawa misled Vegas, but Vegas didn’t do any due diligence, at all. You have a new employee and you realize there’s a clause in his contract that limits where he can be moved, and you didn’t think to confirm with the agent? Even if they weren’t planning on trading him, it’s probably a good idea to have the lists for each player on your team filed so that they’re easily accessible in the event that you trade them.

As for the NHL approving it — yes, they had to process a bunch of trades. So if they can’t have a database of these NTCs for privacy reasons (if that’s the case), then they need to do something else (talk to the agent, review the contract … I don’t think that would take days) to prevent this from happening again because it’s honestly pretty embarrassing for the league.

 

[tbcwpg]

My understanding was that Ottawa had notified Vegas there was an NTC but didn’t provide the list of teams. That could be wrong as I’ve been reading a lot about this and have been very busy with life the last few days so I might be mixing up conflicting reports. In any case, his NTC was on CapFriendly, so it was public knowledge.

So, to make things easier, Ottawa should’ve gave Vegas the list of teams. You’d think that would be something that would be necessary before the Vegas/Ottawa trade went through. But Ottawa not providing the list doesn’t absolve Vegas. Dadanov is no longer employed by Ottawa. The Senators relayed his contract information to his new employer. Ottawa misled Vegas, but Vegas didn’t do any due diligence, at all. You have a new employee and you realize there’s a clause in his contract that limits where he can be moved, and you didn’t think to confirm with the agent? Even if they weren’t planning on trading him, it’s probably a good idea to have the lists for each player on your team filed so that they’re easily accessible in the event that you trade them.

As for the NHL approving it — yes, they had to process a bunch of trades. So if they can’t have a database of these NTCs for privacy reasons (if that’s the case), then they need to do something else (talk to the agent, review the contract … I don’t think that would take days) to prevent this from happening again because it’s honestly pretty embarrassing for the league.

Friedman's latest report suggests team lists are private between the employer (Ottawa at the time) and the player. CapFriendly wouldn't have that. CapFriendly isn't an official source, so they wouldn't be notified if a previously included clause when the contract was signed, like an M-NTC, is valid anymore. Again, the issue isn't that Vegas didn't know about the M-NTC, it's that they believed it was voided because the list was not provided on time.

Friedman's report also suggests that Ottawa either told Vegas the list wasn't submitted, or that they used an old list that would not include the July 1, 2021 deadline on it. In either case, Ottawa messed up. They had the list and informed the agent that they had the list and it was on time.

You seem hung up on the idea that Vegas didn't bother to check about the NTC. That's not the case. They were aware there was an M-NTC, they believed that the clause was voided because Ottawa heavily suggested that it was, either directly saying they didn't get a list, or providing the wrong list to Vegas. Vegas didn't ask about a list because they believed there was no need for a list - the clause no longer applied because the player missed the deadline to submit the list on time to his team at the time, which was Ottawa. This was obviously incorrect, but the fault for that lies with Ottawa. It's not like Ottawa said "Hey, by the way, he has a 10 team no move clause" and Vegas just said "Cool" and didn't ask any further about it.

The NHL approved the trade because Vegas told them the clause was invalid on the trade call based on information they got from Ottawa. The NHL approved the trade based on that information. The player agent notified the league subsequently of the clause, it was investigated, and the trade was reversed. I don't see that the

 

[surixon]

Maybe I’m not following something but why would that mean Vegas was led to believe the clause was voided?

Dadanov is a contracted employee for Vegas, essentially. They didn’t bother to look into the terms of the contract at all in nine months they had him?

“Hmmm it says Dadanov has a limited NTC … Ottawa never sent anything over so it must be voided! No need to check with his agent or anything…”

I just don’t understand how this even got past the NHL. Don’t at least they have lawyers to do due diligence on these sorts of things?

Agreed, you would think their contract team in LV would have read over his contract, saw that it included a MNTC and then inquired about where the list was.

Of Ottawa didn't send it then ask for them to submit it as well as a paper trail to show it was filed properly.


This wasn't rocket science. But I think in the end all trade lists should be filed with the league and PA so there is another check to verify.

 

[snowkiddin]

Friedman's latest report suggests team lists are private between the employer (Ottawa at the time) and the player. CapFriendly wouldn't have that. CapFriendly isn't an official source, so they wouldn't be notified if a previously included clause when the contract was signed, like an M-NTC, is valid anymore. Again, the issue isn't that Vegas didn't know about the M-NTC, it's that they believed it was voided because the list was not provided on time.

Friedman's report also suggests that Ottawa either told Vegas the list wasn't submitted, or that they used an old list that would not include the July 1, 2021 deadline on it. In either case, Ottawa messed up. They had the list and informed the agent that they had the list and it was on time.

You seem hung up on the idea that Vegas didn't bother to check about the NTC. That's not the case. They were aware there was an M-NTC, they believed that the clause was voided because Ottawa heavily suggested that it was, either directly saying they didn't get a list, or providing the wrong list to Vegas. Vegas didn't ask about a list because they believed there was no need for a list - the clause no longer applied because the player missed the deadline to submit the list on time to his team at the time, which was Ottawa. This was obviously incorrect, but the fault for that lies with Ottawa. It's not like Ottawa said "Hey, by the way, he has a 10 team no move clause" and Vegas just said "Cool" and didn't ask any further about it.

The NHL approved the trade because Vegas told them the clause was invalid on the trade call based on information they got from Ottawa. The NHL approved the trade based on that information. The player agent notified the league subsequently of the clause, it was investigated, and the trade was reversed. I don't see that the

Surixon puts it most aptly above.

Dadanov is contracted to Vegas. Ottawa misled them but it’s on Vegas to follow through with the agent instead of just taking Ottawa at their word.

Vegas had a working agreement between them and their employee (as per the employee’s contract) and apparently was unaware of it. It’s not like they got Dadanov in the morning and flipped him that afternoon at the deadline. They had him for nine months and they didn’t think once to confirm whether or not the M-NTC was voided, either through a paper trail or through the agent, as surixon said.

 

[WolfHouse]

Surixon puts it most aptly above.

Dadanov is contracted to Vegas. Ottawa misled them but it’s on Vegas to follow through with the agent instead of just taking Ottawa at their word.

Vegas had a working agreement between them and their employee (as per the employee’s contract) and apparently was unaware of it. It’s not like they got Dadanov in the morning and flipped him that afternoon at the deadline. They had him for nine months and they didn’t think once to confirm whether or not the M-NTC was voided, either through a paper trail or through the agent, as surixon said.

Pretty sure everyone in the league - players and officials are like 'Anaheim? Who puts Anaheim on their NTC?'

 

[surixon]

^^ No Trade Lists should be public information and be accessible by fans on Capfriendly. The players don't like the fans knowing? Tough shit... you are getting paid millions (likely minimum 4 million+ if you are good enough to get a NTC), use those millions to get a thicker skin.

I agree with this. I'm so sick of this anti Canadian sentiment, we make more cash comparatively for these players then the American teams.

 

[tbcwpg]

Surixon puts it most aptly above.

Dadanov is contracted to Vegas. Ottawa misled them but it’s on Vegas to follow through with the agent instead of just taking Ottawa at their word.

Vegas had a working agreement between them and their employee (as per the employee’s contract) and apparently was unaware of it. It’s not like they got Dadanov in the morning and flipped him that afternoon at the deadline. They had him for nine months and they didn’t think once to confirm whether or not the M-NTC was voided, either through a paper trail or through the agent, as surixon said.

Surixon's point assumes that Vegas became aware of the clause after the trade. They were aware of it beforehand. Ottawa told them it no longer applied during the trade call. His other point about asking for evidence it was not filed isn't right either. They'd be verifying with Ottawa, who've already told them it's not been sent. What is Ottawa going to do, let Vegas read their emails to see if a list was provided? They'd have every reason to believe that Ottawa handled it properly on their end before the trade and wouldn't need to verify anything with them further. Also it doesn't appear that Dadynov's agent said anything to Vegas about the list after the trade either - why would he, because he also assumed Ottawa was competent. Why didn't the agent confirm with Vegas that they received a no trade list?

Again, why would Vegas just randomly look into the contract at some point in the 9 months they had the player, that doesn't seem like something that would be done by any company, hockey team or not. Especially if they had no immediate plans to trade the player, and that they believed that the only thing that might hold up a trade, was no longer valid.

The agent is going to tell them the list was submitted on time either way. If Vegas asks for the list, they just provide a new list and there you go. It's not a reliable source of information. Sure, ask about it, but I wouldn't weight that too heavily.

I'm not saying Vegas is totally innocent here - the agent was told there was a trade to Anaheim in the works, and the agent told the team that Anaheim was on their no trade list. That should've given Vegas pause, but I believe in the rush to complete the trade before the deadline they ignored it. That's squarely on Vegas. The whole issue started because Ottawa was negligent in their duty on the initial trade call. They were trading a contract to another team, they need to tell the other team about the clauses and, more importantly, provide them correct information. They didn't, either by telling Vegas that the list was not submitted, or by submitting an old list which would not be valid for this season anyway. There's blame to go around to many parties here but I'd put Ottawa at the top of that list.

 

[WolfHouse]

I agree with this. I'm so sick of this anti Canadian sentiment, we make more cash comparatively for these players then the American teams.

Honestly, the no trade clause should be scrapped... it won't but its another layer that amplifies that already unfair taxation advantage that certain teams have.

 

[snowkiddin]

Honestly, the no trade clause should be scrapped... it won't but its another layer that amplifies that already unfair taxation advantage that certain teams have.

The NHLPA would never let it happen, but the modified NTC is what really makes the playing field unfair.

The location advantage will always help teams in free agency. Players will want to sign in certain locations over others. Look at the Rangers, they’ve been so terrible at developing their own prospects for the most part but their best players other than Shesterkin both signed with them because they wanted to play in New York. You can’t get around that advantage, but limited NTC that disallow certain teams over others amplifies that issue.

 

[cbcwpg]

^^ No Trade Lists should be public information and be accessible by fans on Capfriendly. The players don't like the fans knowing? Tough shit... you are getting paid millions (likely minimum 4 million+ if you are good enough to get a NTC), use those millions to get a thicker skin.

If the NHL really wants to be taken seriously as a sport that draws the attention of a lot of people, mainly for gambling purposes, then it needs to be open. Contracts, no-trade lists, injuries, everything.

 

[Guardian17]

Pretty sure everyone in the league - players and officials are like 'Anaheim? Who puts Anaheim on their NTC?'

Taxes in California are among the highest in the United States and are imposed by the state and by local governments.

Taxation in California - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[cbcwpg]

Surixon's point assumes that Vegas became aware of the clause after the trade. They were aware of it beforehand. Ottawa told them it no longer applied during the trade call. His other point about asking for evidence it was not filed isn't right either. They'd be verifying with Ottawa, who've already told them it's not been sent. What is Ottawa going to do, let Vegas read their emails to see if a list was provided? They'd have every reason to believe that Ottawa handled it properly on their end before the trade and wouldn't need to verify anything with them further. Also it doesn't appear that Dadynov's agent said anything to Vegas about the list after the trade either - why would he, because he also assumed Ottawa was competent. Why didn't the agent confirm with Vegas that they received a no trade list?

"Why would he?" Because it's his responsibility, not Ottawa's.

* following rules from capfriendly

Under the CBA that came after the 2020 shutdown, no-trade and no-move clauses travel with a player regardless, even if they have not kicked in yet. The acquiring team cannot void the clause.

Once the clause has gone into effect, it will travel with the player even if he consents to being traded or is claimed on waivers

- This requires that the acquiring team sign an addendum to the contract ensuring that the clause does in fact travel with the player (written by the player's agent)

- If the acquiring team refuses to sign the addendum, and the player waives his clause anyway, at that point the clause may be nullified

***

So, when Dadonov was traded from Ottawa to Vegas, the acquiring team Vegas needed to sign a contract amendment given to them by Dadonov's agent stating his NTC is still valid. So, as long as Dadonov's agent passed on the correct paper work to Vegas, Vegas knew all about the NTC and the teams on it. If they never got the paper work or say old paper work, then it's Dadonov's agents fault, not Ottawa.

According to Freidman, the paperwork, was put in on time. My theory... the agent did what was required when player was traded to Vegas, Vegas signed off on the addendum, knew the player had a NTC, knew the teams the player had on the NTC, but got so caught up in playing LTIR games that they had to move this player, and they just plain forgot what they signed.

 

[JetsFan815]

I'm not saying Vegas is totally innocent here - the agent was told there was a trade to Anaheim in the works, and the agent told the team that Anaheim was on their no trade list. That should've given Vegas pause, but I believe in the rush to complete the trade before the deadline they ignored it. That's squarely on Vegas. The whole issue started because Ottawa was negligent in their duty on the initial trade call. They were trading a contract to another team, they need to tell the other team about the clauses and, more importantly, provide them correct information. They didn't, either by telling Vegas that the list was not submitted, or by submitting an old list which would not be valid for this season anyway. There's blame to go around to many parties here but I'd put Ottawa at the top of that list.

Agreed... while it seems like Ottawa screwed, Vegas should have heeded to what the agent said, or better yet contact the agent weeks before the trade to see if everything is on the up and up... apparently moving Dadanov was always the plan once they got Eichel so they had enough time to investigate if the agent disagreed with their assessment of the NTC.

 

[tbcwpg]

"Why would he?" Because it's his responsibility, not Ottawa's.

* following rules from capfriendly

Under the CBA that came after the 2020 shutdown, no-trade and no-move clauses travel with a player regardless, even if they have not kicked in yet. The acquiring team cannot void the clause.

Once the clause has gone into effect, it will travel with the player even if he consents to being traded or is claimed on waivers

- This requires that the acquiring team sign an addendum to the contract ensuring that the clause does in fact travel with the player (written by the player's agent)

- If the acquiring team refuses to sign the addendum, and the player waives his clause anyway, at that point the clause may be nullified

***

So, when Dadonov was traded from Ottawa to Vegas, the acquiring team Vegas needed to sign a contract amendment given to them by Dadonov's agent stating his NTC is still valid. So, as long as Dadonov's agent passed on the correct paper work to Vegas, Vegas knew all about the NTC and the teams on it. If they never got the paper work or say old paper work, then it's Dadonov's agents fault, not Ottawa.

According to Freidman, the paperwork, was put in on time. My theory... the agent did what was required when player was traded to Vegas, Vegas signed off on the addendum, knew the player had a NTC, knew the teams the player had on the NTC, but got so caught up in playing LTIR games that they had to move this player, and they just plain forgot what they signed.

The agent hasn't said that Vegas signed an addendum.

Like I said, there's blame everywhere, but I think people are letting their view of Vegas cloud who they feel is responsible. I don't buy your "caught up in playing LTIR games" argument. If Ottawa trades a player with a clause that they tell the acquiring club is void, Vegas isn't going to bother with this because they don't believe they have to.

Dadynov had no clause to waive. Vegas was not on his 10 team NTC, so he didn't have any say in the matter there. This was a miscommunication, that's all. It seems Ottawa had the biggest role in that, to me.

 

[WolfHouse]

In the end, it doesn't matter who's fault it is or if it was a misunderstanding or whatever, the important thing is that vegas is fkd.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I’m cackling like a evil Bond villain. I wonder if this effects the roster in the playoffs (if they even make it)

So they can't activate all of their LTIR players. But they can't keep them on LTIR if they are fit to play either. And they can't trade anyone very easily. Even if they can find a trade partner, I'm not sure that solves their problem.

Between a rock and a hard place AND you can't get there from here.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Those lists aren't filed to the league office. They're filed to the team by the player and his agent. The agent filed the list to Ottawa on June 30, 2021.

The issue wasn't Vegas not being aware of the clause. The issue was that Vegas was led to believe the clause was void because Ottawa didn't say anything about the list when the trade was made.

Vegas isn't without blame. They checked with Dadynov's agent before they made the trade and he told them that they had submitted a list and that Anaheim was on it. Vegas didn't bother to verify the list with Ottawa. Maybe they were running out of time, who knows. The only way Ottawa is 100% wrong here is if they told Vegas that he didn't send a list on time, which given the group running that team, definitely could've happened.

Still 100% on Vegas for assuming.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

They got the impression from Ottawa that Dadynov didn't submit his 10 team no trade list on time. Whether that was because they assumed he didn't because Ottawa didn't mention it, or Dorion told them that he didn't submit it on time. Knowing Ottawa, it's just as likely it's the latter as the former. Vegas isn't without blame here, they didn't verify anything, but there's too many reporters out there saying that Vegas believed the clause was void to say that Vegas knew about it but just forgot. There was a report that Vegas told his agent about the pending trade and his agent said "Nope, Anaheim is on the list". Would Vegas make the trade anyway knowing that without believing the clause was invalid?

I don't think it's that unusual that someone didn't just decide to look at Dadynov's contract out of the blue one day just to re-read the terms in it. Doubly so if they had the idea the clause was void anyway. And of course, the agent is going to say they filed it on time regardless.

How does it get past the NHL? The NHL has several trades to process in quick succession when deals are made right before the 3pm deadline. They're not going to have lawyers look into each trade as it happens on the call and then process the trade after lawyers have looked at it. That would take days. The trade to Vegas was valid regardless of the M-NTC because Vegas was not on the list.

Vegas believing the clause was voided without having checked fully means diddly squat, IMO.

 

[Guardian17]

 

[SUX2BU]

Sorry if this is off-topic

Canada plays Costa Rica tonight in soccer

Win and they’re in ……

How Canada can qualify for the World Cup on Thursday - TSN.ca

Here are the four scenarios that would see Canada qualify for its first World Cup in 36 years on Thursday night.

www.tsn.ca