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STL fan in MN

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What about other finns? Hate those too?
Barkov is awesome. Selanne was one of my favorites ever. I’d be very happy if the Blues drafted Helenius in a couple weeks (I like Miettinen too but not at 16). But Mikkola just isn’t very good. Solid 3rd pairing guy but he can be overexposed. Husso isn’t very good either.
 

ChicagoBlues

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What about other finns? Hate those too?
Shark fin soup sucks. Does that count?

Barkov is awesome. Selanne was one of my favorites ever. I’d be very happy if the Blues drafted Helenius in a couple weeks (I like Miettinen too but not at 16). But Mikkola just isn’t very good. Solid 3rd pairing guy but he can be overexposed. Husso isn’t very good either.
It seems to me that of all the people in this world we should have enough who are very good bottom-pairing defensemen
 

Davimir Tarablad

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Sep 16, 2015
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Still he plays toughest opponents vs. Also plays well.

Hate The boy.

Tarasenko killing IT.
The Forsling/Ekblad pairing are taking the most minutes against top competition and defensive deployment. While Montour/Mikkola are seeing much more balanced deployment and competition.

And while Mikkola has been up to task for most of the playoffs, he’s been undeniably bad in games 3 and 4. It’s not hating to point out his limitations as a player. And consistency has always been a knock on him, there were times on the Blues where he looked good paired with Parayko in a shutdown role, then he’d follow it up with a stretch of being a turnover machine who bled chances against.
 

PocketNines

Cutter's Way
Apr 29, 2004
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when I hear some of the Binnington-Hofer talk it reminds me of the empty stress some had about choosing Binnington over Husso. I do value Hofer more than Husso but proven is proven, and unproven is still some wish projection
 
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Blueston

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The Forsling/Ekblad pairing are taking the most minutes against top competition and defensive deployment. While Montour/Mikkola are seeing much more balanced deployment and competition.

And while Mikkola has been up to task for most of the playoffs, he’s been undeniably bad in games 3 and 4. It’s not hating to point out his limitations as a player. And consistency has always been a knock on him, there were times on the Blues where he looked good paired with Parayko in a shutdown role, then he’d follow it up with a stretch of being a turnover machine who bled chances against.
Exactly. Miko is a 4/5 d who when paired with puck moving partner can look really good, but is still quite limited. Florida is able to insulate him in a way we can’t. I wish him well but don’t miss him.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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I'm still not giving Edmonton a real chance of coming all the way back, but Saturday was a lot of fun and it's nice that they gave their fans a party. I'm hoping they can find a way to get it back to Edmonton and create the first moment of actual stress for Florida. Not expecting that, but I think it is at least a realistic notion.

Assuming Florida can finish the job, I do wonder if we will see a bit of a shift in thinking towards the goalie market. Bob would tie Eichel (and Barkov) as the highest AAV to win a Cup and it would be the 2nd time in 4 years that a top-3 paid goalie lifted the Cup (Vasi was still on his cheaper deal for their first Cup win in 2020). In addition to Cup wins, we also saw Price lead the Habs to the Final in 2020, Vasi lose in the Final in 2022, and Bob losing in the Final last season.

That's 5 Final appearances and (likely) 2 Cup wins from goalies who were top 3 earners over the last 5 seasons.

After a very long stretch of top goalie earners failing to win the Cup (and very rarely get to the Final), suddenly the big earners are seeing tons of success. With Shesterkin and Saros both seeking their big paydays in the near future, I have to think there is a chance for the market to really change.
 

Xerloris

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Jun 9, 2015
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I'm still not giving Edmonton a real chance of coming all the way back, but Saturday was a lot of fun and it's nice that they gave their fans a party. I'm hoping they can find a way to get it back to Edmonton and create the first moment of actual stress for Florida. Not expecting that, but I think it is at least a realistic notion.

Assuming Florida can finish the job, I do wonder if we will see a bit of a shift in thinking towards the goalie market. Bob would tie Eichel (and Barkov) as the highest AAV to win a Cup and it would be the 2nd time in 4 years that a top-3 paid goalie lifted the Cup (Vasi was still on his cheaper deal for their first Cup win in 2020). In addition to Cup wins, we also saw Price lead the Habs to the Final in 2020, Vasi lose in the Final in 2022, and Bob losing in the Final last season.

That's 5 Final appearances and (likely) 2 Cup wins from goalies who were top 3 earners over the last 5 seasons.

After a very long stretch of top goalie earners failing to win the Cup (and very rarely get to the Final), suddenly the big earners are seeing tons of success. With Shesterkin and Saros both seeking their big paydays in the near future, I have to think there is a chance for the market to really change.

You may be right but I just can't get over feeling like paying a goalie 10mill is such a huge mistake. Hell, paying Hellybuck 8 or what ever it is he's getting is a huge mistake.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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I'm still not giving Edmonton a real chance of coming all the way back, but Saturday was a lot of fun and it's nice that they gave their fans a party. I'm hoping they can find a way to get it back to Edmonton and create the first moment of actual stress for Florida. Not expecting that, but I think it is at least a realistic notion.

Assuming Florida can finish the job, I do wonder if we will see a bit of a shift in thinking towards the goalie market. Bob would tie Eichel (and Barkov) as the highest AAV to win a Cup and it would be the 2nd time in 4 years that a top-3 paid goalie lifted the Cup (Vasi was still on his cheaper deal for their first Cup win in 2020). In addition to Cup wins, we also saw Price lead the Habs to the Final in 2020, Vasi lose in the Final in 2022, and Bob losing in the Final last season.

That's 5 Final appearances and (likely) 2 Cup wins from goalies who were top 3 earners over the last 5 seasons.

After a very long stretch of top goalie earners failing to win the Cup (and very rarely get to the Final), suddenly the big earners are seeing tons of success. With Shesterkin and Saros both seeking their big paydays in the near future, I have to think there is a chance for the market to really change.
I think the key is to have the BEST goalie, whatever he’s making. (Snark)

Another way to express what you’re talking about is that guys with Vezina caliber seasons under their belts are having good postseason success. But Vegas and Colorado (maybe even throw St Louis in there) have won it all with ‘regular guys’ in at net.

But say there is merit to the need for a Vezina contender to win the Cup. What’s a GM supposed to do with that information? There are very limited candidates. And we could point out some flame outs who had Vezina caliber years, won big contracts, and then became roster liabilities.
 
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ChicagoBlues

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I'm still not giving Edmonton a real chance of coming all the way back, but Saturday was a lot of fun and it's nice that they gave their fans a party. I'm hoping they can find a way to get it back to Edmonton and create the first moment of actual stress for Florida. Not expecting that, but I think it is at least a realistic notion.

Assuming Florida can finish the job, I do wonder if we will see a bit of a shift in thinking towards the goalie market. Bob would tie Eichel (and Barkov) as the highest AAV to win a Cup and it would be the 2nd time in 4 years that a top-3 paid goalie lifted the Cup (Vasi was still on his cheaper deal for their first Cup win in 2020). In addition to Cup wins, we also saw Price lead the Habs to the Final in 2020, Vasi lose in the Final in 2022, and Bob losing in the Final last season.

That's 5 Final appearances and (likely) 2 Cup wins from goalies who were top 3 earners over the last 5 seasons.

After a very long stretch of top goalie earners failing to win the Cup (and very rarely get to the Final), suddenly the big earners are seeing tons of success. With Shesterkin and Saros both seeking their big paydays in the near future, I have to think there is a chance for the market to really change.
Nice dig! A good nugget.
 
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ChicagoBlues

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The Forsling/Ekblad pairing are taking the most minutes against top competition and defensive deployment. While Montour/Mikkola are seeing much more balanced deployment and competition.

And while Mikkola has been up to task for most of the playoffs, he’s been undeniably bad in games 3 and 4. It’s not hating to point out his limitations as a player. And consistency has always been a knock on him, there were times on the Blues where he looked good paired with Parayko in a shutdown role, then he’d follow it up with a stretch of being a turnover machine who bled chances against.
Agreed. He's got that head shaky cringe factor. Niko is still fun to watch, but he is in way over his head right now.
 

Blueston

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I think the key is to have the BEST goalie, whatever he’s making. (Snark)

Another way to express what you’re talking about is that guys with Vezina caliber seasons under their belts are having good postseason success. But Vegas and Colorado (maybe even throw St Louis in there) have won it all with ‘regular guys’ in at net.

But say there is merit to the need for a Vezina contender to win the Cup. What’s a GM supposed to do with that information? There are very limited candidates. And we could point out some flame outs who had Vezina caliber years, won big contracts, and then became roster liabilities.
I think you nailed it. You typically need great goaltending to win Cup, but other than elite guys there is so much inconsistency in goaltending it makes it hard to predict. As you say, guys like Campbell or Peterson, they went from teasing they could be THE guy into being completely unplayable almost overnight. Which makes elite guys more valuable and also makes paying goalies incredibly risky.

All of this is why you don't deal guy like Binny unless you get a HAUL. He isn't perfect, but he is guy with track record of doing it and that allows team to weather his ups and downs without feeling like you can't trust him. This is why team like Toronto should be all in on getting someone like Binny, because having someone like him that you KNOW can do it is so different than having talented kid like Woll who you THINK can do it, until he has rough spell and you don't know. With Binny you know. He won't necessarily have less downs, but they are less existential.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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I think the key is to have the BEST goalie, whatever he’s making. (Snark)

Another way to express what you’re talking about is that guys with Vezina caliber seasons under their belts are having good postseason success. But Vegas and Colorado (maybe even throw St Louis in there) have won it all with ‘regular guys’ in at net.

But say there is merit to the need for a Vezina contender to win the Cup. What’s a GM supposed to do with that information? There are very limited candidates. And we could point out some flame outs who had Vezina caliber years, won big contracts, and then became roster liabilities.
The potential lesson isn't about being able to win while paying a great goalie accordingly relative to other goalies. It's about being able to win while paying a great goalie relative to the rest of the league's star skaters.

Vasi, Bob, and Price were/are all top 20 AAVs across all positions league wide in the years they took their teams on runs. They were paid like legit superstars whose AAVs were right on par with the best few players at each other position. Until recently, there was a long sample size suggesting that you simply couldn't win the Cup by paying a goalie like a true star, no matter how good he was.

Prior to 2020/21, the cap era had never seen a team make the Final with a goalie whose AAV was top 20 across all positions. Here is the full list of goalies who appeared in the Final in a season where they were among the top 50 AAVs across all positions:

Huet was riding the bench as the 50th highest AAV in 2010. Hank was the 24th highest AAV in 2014 when the Rangers lost to the Kings. Rinne was the 29th highest AAV when the Preds lost to the Pens. Rask was the 43rd highest AAV when we beat the Bruins. That's it. That's just 4 of the 30 teams who made the Final from 2006-2020 who had a goalie with an AAV in the top 50 of all positions league-wide.

Those teams went 1-3 and the only winner had a goalie who just squeaked into the top 50. There was a large amount of evidence to support the notion that you couldn't pay a goalie like a star skater if you wanted to truly contend for a Cup.

Then in 2020/21 Vasi won as the 16th highest AAV while Price was the runner up with the 8th highest AAV.

Then in 2021/22 Vasi got back to the Final still as the 16th highest AAV.

Then in 2022/23 Bob made the Final as the 12th highest AAV.

And then this year Bob is back with a 3-1 series lead as the 15th highest AAV.

After 15 years without a top 20 AAV in net during the Final, we saw 5 of the 8 teams with such a guy in net in the next 4 years. The flat cap era was dominated by the goalies paid like superstars.

Obviously you shouldn't pay a non-elite goalie like a superstar. Teams without an elite guy shouldn't overpay those non-elite guys. But the last 4 years have shown us that teams with an elite guy can absolutely still build a winner around an elite goalie who is paid right in line with the tier of superstar players just below the 'repeat MVP candidate' guys at the absolute very top of the AAV list. Up until very recently, the consensus had absolutely become that you just can't build a winner around a goalie paid like that. The last 4 years have demonstrated concrete evidence that you absolutely can and have given the 2 studs nearing UFA the leverage to ask to be paid accordingly.
 
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Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
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The potential lesson isn't about being able to win while paying a great goalie accordingly relative to other goalies. It's about being able to win while paying a great goalie relative to the rest of the league's star skaters.

Vasi, Bob, and Price were/are all top 20 AAVs across all positions league wide in the years they took their teams on runs. They were paid like legit superstars whose AAVs were right on par with the best few players at each other position. Until recently, there was a long sample size suggesting that you simply couldn't win the Cup by paying a goalie like a true star, no matter how good he was.

Prior to 2020/21, the cap era had never seen a team make the Final with a goalie whose AAV was top 20 across all positions. Here is the full list of goalies who appeared in the Final in a season where they were among the top 50 AAVs across all positions:

Huet was riding the bench as the 50th highest AAV in 2010. Hank was the 24th highest AAV in 2014 when the Rangers lost to the Kings. Rinne was the 29th highest AAV when the Preds lost to the Pens. Rask was the 43rd highest AAV when we beat the Bruins. That's it. That's just 4 of the 28 teams who made the Final from 2006-2019 who had a goalie with an AAV in the top 50 of all positions league-wide.

Those teams went 1-3 and the only winner had a goalie who just squeaked into the top 50. There was a large amount of evidence to support the notion that you couldn't pay a goalie like a star skater if you wanted to truly contend for a Cup.

Then in 2019/20 Vasi won as the 16th highest AAV while Price was the runner up with the 8th highest AAV.

Then in 2021/22 Vasi got back to the Final still as the 16th highest AAV.

Then in 2022/23 Bob made the Final as the 12th highest AAV.

And then this year Bob is back with a 3-1 series lead as the 15th highest AAV.

The 'goalie on a superstar contract' hadn't ever been a successful recipe for success in the cap era and suddenly it has been a successful model for 4 straight seasons. In those 4 seasons, there has been a $2.5M+ gap between the 3rd highest paid goalie in the league (Vasi) and the 4th. We've only had 3 goalies paid like superstars and all 3 got their teams to the Final in that span. 2 of the 3 got their teams there twice and Bob needs to win 1 of his next 3 games to be the 2nd Cup winner of the group.

Obviously you shouldn't pay a non-elite goalie like a superstar. Teams without an elite guy shouldn't overpay those non-elite guys. But the last 4 years have shown us that teams with an elite guy can absolutely still build a winner around an elite goalie who is paid right in line with the tier of superstar players just below the 'repeat MVP candidate' guys at the absolute very top of the AAV list. Up until very recently, the consensus had absolutely become that you just can't build a winner around a goalie paid like that. The last 4 years have demonstrated concrete evidence that you absolutely can and have given the 2 studs nearing UFA the leverage to ask to be paid accordingly.


You're being rather lenient saying all 3 have made it to the finals in the last 4 years when one of them couldn't even get his team into the playoffs until the covid cup and the other two have/had completely stacked dominant teams in front of them. just seems more like luck of the draw rather than the goalie carrying the team. At any rate though it's still a terrible idea to pay a goalie like a superstar.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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You're being rather lenient saying all 3 have made it to the finals in the last 4 years when one of them couldn't even get his team into the playoffs until the covid cup and the other two have/had completely stacked dominant teams in front of them. just seems more like luck of the draw rather than the goalie carrying the team. At any rate though it's still a terrible idea to pay a goalie like a superstar.
"It's really stupid to pay a goalie like a superstar because only 2 of the 3 teams paying a goalie like a superstar were able to build completely stacked dominant teams in front of that goalie."

That is certainly some logic.

I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that Vasi and Bob have been absolutely critical backbones to Florida and Tampa's recent deep runs. Vasi won the Conn Smythe for their 2nd Cup win and Bob is currently the Vegas favorite to win the award this year. I honestly don't know what sport you are watching in the spring if you don't believe that those two were massive drivers of their teams' deep playoff runs.
 

Xerloris

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"It's really stupid to pay a goalie like a superstar because only 2 of the 3 teams paying a goalie like a superstar were able to build completely stacked dominant teams in front of that goalie."

That is certainly some logic.

I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that Vasi and Bob have been absolutely critical backbones to Florida and Tampa's recent deep runs. Vasi won the Conn Smythe for their 2nd Cup win and Bob is currently the Vegas favorite to win the award this year. I honestly don't know what sport you are watching in the spring if you don't believe that those two were massive drivers of their teams' deep playoff runs.

Did I say they haven't been incredible? My point is would they be where they are right now if their teams weren't so stacked? I mean Price sure was good but he never sniffed success in the playoffs with his shitty team until the covid cup.
 

Shwabeal

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Feb 24, 2016
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Did I say they haven't been incredible? My point is would they be where they are right now if their teams weren't so stacked? I mean Price sure was good but he never sniffed success in the playoffs with his shitty team until the covid cup.
I think the point is more that you can still construct a great roster while paying an upper echelon goalie that kind of money. The performances they’ve turned in could be matched by a mid-tier or below average goalie for a playoff run, but you’re much more likely to get it with one of those elite guys.

A lot of people act as if it makes it harder to win when you’re committing that kind of money to one position, but as long as you spend wisely around them, you can make a much better roster with that kind of stability in net.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Did I say they haven't been incredible? My point is would they be where they are right now if their teams weren't so stacked? I mean Price sure was good but he never sniffed success in the playoffs with his shitty team until the covid cup.
Yes, $10M AAV players of any position can't drag shitty teams to deep playoff success. Fantastic point.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Niko MiGoala.

Nice play by Broberg to calmly collect the puck and skate it out of the zone for a line change.

"This place is a church." lol

I started liking ERod's game last season when the Blues and Avs played. I always had a feeling that he would score.

Skinner's movement is much better these last two games.

I don't like either of Messier's or PK's suits, but at least the green color of PK's plays well with all of the red and magenta hues in the background. Messier's mauve looks like he's wearing green while doing TV weather.
 
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