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Around the NHL 11 - 2023/24

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WaveRaven said:
Somebody needs to explain to me at this point why these owners need any kind of taxpayer subsidies? Including TNSE.
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Not saying it's right or wrong but lots of businesses that generate economic activity get subsidies, being through tax breaks or other means.

Does having the Winnipeg Jets in the city generate enough net new economic activity to justify the subsidies? Does having the NHL make Winnipeg a more attractive place to live and visit? Does having an NHL team generate awareness of the city internationally?

Those are the questions that should be carefully considered.
 
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Buffdog said:
What I don't understand is that a lot of these franchises worth hundreds of millions of dollars AREN'T profitable. So where's the value coming from?
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I think it's a lot like a lot of today's stock market or crypto, it's just speculation. They have value because people with money think they have value. They've also demonstrated that they are appreciating assets. Then you factor in scarcity and prestige of owning one.

It's all kind of stupid but there it is.
 
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Buffdog said:
In short, it's because without subsidies, TNSE wouldn't be profitable (or at least not as profitable)

If they aren't profitable, they'd leave

If they leave, they take all the tax revenue they generate with them

It's an example of the government spending money to make money

Whatever subsidies the govt gives TNSE will be less than the tax revenue that is generated so the govt still comes out ahead

What I don't understand is that a lot of these franchises worth hundreds of millions of dollars AREN'T profitable. So where's the value coming from?
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IMO if an NHL franchise can't make money, it really has no value. But, the value comes from convincing someone else it has value.

You are right... a lot of the teams are not profitable, so the question is why own one? some reasons...

- Ego. Having more money than you know what to do with so you buy a sports team so you can brag to you friends that you own a sports team. It's a status symbol. Exclusive club.

- There's one born every minute. People buy teams for the purpose of selling them later to someone else who will overpay for it, who will sell it to someone else and so on. IE: Tampa... bought for $170 M being sold for $2 B ... good incentive to buy a team, as long as you can sell it later. Look no further than all the clowns who bought the Arizona Coyotes. There is no way in hell any of those people ever thought the Coyotes would be profitable. The end game was always to buy it and flip it later for more.

- taxes. This is were it gets really complex,. See: The Billionaire Playbook: How Sports Owners Use Their Teams to Avoid Millions in Taxes • Minnesota Reformer
 
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Jet said:
Does having the Winnipeg Jets in the city generate enough net new economic activity to justify the subsidies? Does having the NHL make Winnipeg a more attractive place to live and visit? Does having an NHL team generate awareness of the city internationally?
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This guy has all the answers... ;)

270daf26774f60c7e2f576927e6b86ed.jpg


Apologies for breaking my vow of silence, it was just too tempting a setup. Back to lurking...
 
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surixon said:
Let's be honest, this isn't just pro sports. A good many big businesses in this country get subsidies in one form or another. It's the only way we can attract them. Otherwise they'd just go to countries with cheaper labor.
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Yep, Honda just got $5 Billion in government subsidies to put a EV factory in Ontario.
 
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www.thescore.com

Waddell: Laine 'does not want to play' for Jackets but may be only option

Columbus Blue Jackets general manager Don Waddell is still trying to trade Patrik Laine, but the executive knows there's a realistic possibility that the forward will have to stay put for the time being. "This is a different situation than any that I've really dealt with," he said during a...
www.thescore.com www.thescore.com
 
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cbcwpg said:
www.thescore.com

Waddell: Laine 'does not want to play' for Jackets but may be only option

Columbus Blue Jackets general manager Don Waddell is still trying to trade Patrik Laine, but the executive knows there's a realistic possibility that the forward will have to stay put for the time being. "This is a different situation than any that I've really dealt with," he said during a...
www.thescore.com www.thescore.com
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Definitely not good for Laine or Waddell. Laine is now 2 for 2 in wanting to move on from his NHL team. Both he and PLD are enigma’s and on top of it Patrik’s durability is an issue.

Waddell going public with a statement is interesting.
 
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ps241 said:
Definitely not good for Laine or Waddell. Laine is now 2 for 2 in wanting to move on from his NHL team. Both he and PLD are enigma’s and on top of it Patrik’s durability is an issue.

Waddell going public with a statement is interesting.
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I'm still debating whether the GM's statement is clueless or doing something very crafty.
 
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WaveRaven said:
So another "dressing room problem" interesting.
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Johnny Gaudreau and Patrik Laine seem like completely different personalities. I could see that being a franchise that really wasn't a fit for Laine, with no real mentors.

I hope Laine doesn't get traded into the Central division...I think he's a prime candidate for a rebound season.
 
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WolfHouse said:
Yes but so is Treiliving and I have no explanation of why he does what he does
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Waddell is at least a decent GM. He built a good team in Carolina (although some of his moves with Atlanta were iffy)

If he's putting stuff about the locker room out there, I'm going to at least partially think that it's strategic. Maybe he has something lined up with a team on Laine's no trade list and he thinks that by airing the locker room stuff, he's burning the bridge for Patty to motivate him to waive
 
ps241 said:
Definitely not good for Laine or Waddell. Laine is now 2 for 2 in wanting to move on from his NHL team. Both he and PLD are enigma’s and on top of it Patrik’s durability is an issue.

Waddell going public with a statement is interesting.
Click to expand...

My guess is that the trade market on Laine is soft and a reconciliation between Laine and the org seems unlikely so Waddell is lowering fan expectations on a trade return so that the management isn't taking stones after the trade.
 
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Buffdog said:
In short, it's because without subsidies, TNSE wouldn't be profitable (or at least not as profitable)

If they aren't profitable, they'd leave

If they leave, they take all the tax revenue they generate with them

It's an example of the government spending money to make money

Whatever subsidies the govt gives TNSE will be less than the tax revenue that is generated so the govt still comes out ahead

What I don't understand is that a lot of these franchises worth hundreds of millions of dollars AREN'T profitable. So where's the value coming from ?
Click to expand...
There's basically 2 types of value in an investment. One being "cash flow" - can it pay it's bills in a fiscal year, and also make profit. The other is "long term asset appreciation".

I really don't think owners buy initially to make money by way of cash flow, as the cost to get in , is just too high. If they can that's great, and some older more established clubs do.

The money is made "long term " like a real estate investment. Example Chipman buys the Jets for $ 160 million, and could likely sell the Jets for at least $ 2 billion. I think Seattle paid close to $ 3 billion, but it may have been $ 2 bil.

So say Chipman sold the Jets for $ 2 billion, less his cost of 160 mill, then his profit would be ( $ 2 bil - $ 160 mil ) = $ 1.84 billion dollars,
less some bad years on the operating side. Now you see where the money is made = "long term." and it's very big money $$$

The Key is you have to have the pockets to carry the team thru bad operating years, where you lost money on the operating side. A good example would be Zeto, owner of the Florida Panthers. He has very very deep pockets, and can play with 1/2 empty arenas, ( and did) whereas a guy like Chipman, cannot afford that.
 
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