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Around the NHL 11 - 2023/24

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AlphaLackey said:
If they really employ 4 people in their analytics department, then what do those people actually do for a living? But you're correct to call out "literal zero", since they could very well hire people just to say "look, we have an analytics department; our coach just ignores every single piece of advice they send".

Bowness was clearly not just the oldest coach in the league but the least modern of the bunch. That game five line usage paints a picture all on its own.

And yes, I'm aware that a coach has many more decisions to make than pulling the goalie. But if they resort to an important universal tactic like it was closer to the first day it was used than the present day, I consider that a really good barometer -- or I guess a chronometer, more accurately -- as to how old-school a coach is.
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To be fair, teams usually have proprietary analytics that's they don't make public

If we saw all the data they had, maybe the decisions they made would make more sense. It's intellectually lazy to assume that somebody is wrong just because they didn't make rhe same decision you would when there could be any number of reasons that they made the choices they did that you aren't privy to.

For example, I suspect that like most NHL teams, they use some form of wearable to collect data from their players and use it to monitor usage as well as rest and recovery. Did you know that they have the technology to track exactly how far someone skates over the course of a practice or game, as well as their heart rate throughout?
 
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Buffdog said:
To be fair, teams usually have proprietary analytics that's they don't make public

If we saw all the data they had, maybe the decisions they made would make more sense. It's intellectually lazy to assume that somebody is wrong just because they didn't make rhe same decision you would when there could be any number of reasons that they made the choices they did that you aren't privy to.

For example, I suspect that like most NHL teams, they use some form of wearable to collect data from their players and use it to monitor usage as well as rest and recovery. Did you know that they have the technology to track exactly how far someone skates over the course of a practice or game, as well as their heart rate throughout?
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Mike Babcock had information on his players that no other teams would think of getting
 
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Buffdog said:
To be fair, teams usually have proprietary analytics that's they don't make public

If we saw all the data they had, maybe the decisions they made would make more sense. It's intellectually lazy to assume that somebody is wrong just because they didn't make rhe same decision you would when there could be any number of reasons that they made the choices they did that you aren't privy to.

For example, I suspect that like most NHL teams, they use some form of wearable to collect data from their players and use it to monitor usage as well as rest and recovery. Did you know that they have the technology to track exactly how far someone skates over the course of a practice or game, as well as their heart rate throughout?
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I mean, you definitely raise a good point here :thumbu:. It's the old showdown, yeah? Occam's Razor vs "absence of evidence != evidence of absence". I did know the technology was available for player speed, and they're even starting to show it now during games. I hadn't considered heart rate but it makes sense as well now that you think of it.

I guess in the end, that's why I go back to my simpler examples so often -- goalie pulls, goalie starts, goal challenges. These are things that are almost solved. So no, I can't say for sure whether or not Bones is an anachronism in line usage. But if I can confidently assert he's a dinosaur in far simpler ways, it stands to reason he's also so in the more complex ways.

But again, as you said, there's definitely a non-trivial chance there's some things going on that are over my head, and I admit my ceiling is low compared to the majority of posters here. I've always maintained the most important question someone with strong opinions can ask themselves is "if I'm wrong, how would I know?" Well, you've definitely helped clarify the answer for me here. Legit thanks :)
 
Wow … it’s true.
Lately I have been seeing a few posts about shots on net on how they are changing them or not counting them because of betting.
So I made a point of watching the shots tonight and sure enough it’s true.
Nobody cares about SOG but if they change them for betting … maybe that’s how they decide goaltender interference.
How much money do we make on under?
We’ll make more if it’s over … ok it’s a good goal.
 
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Buffdog said:
To be fair, teams usually have proprietary analytics that's they don't make public

If we saw all the data they had, maybe the decisions they made would make more sense. It's intellectually lazy to assume that somebody is wrong just because they didn't make rhe same decision you would when there could be any number of reasons that they made the choices they did that you aren't privy to.

For example, I suspect that like most NHL teams, they use some form of wearable to collect data from their players and use it to monitor usage as well as rest and recovery. Did you know that they have the technology to track exactly how far someone skates over the course of a practice or game, as well as their heart rate throughout?
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Edge.nhl.com has a lot of that stuff. Top speed, speed bursts, shot speed, shot location, zone time, etc. So that stuff is tracked and public.

The proprietary stuff is some combination of manual counts and analysis of things not counted and shared by the NHL. Like zone entry/exits, board battles won/lost, pass data before shots, etc. Plus data gathering from other pro and amateur leagues where there isn't data available otherwise (AHL, SHL, CHL, USHL, etc.).

If people really think the NHL is gaming the stats for betting purposes (or just getting them wrong because of incompetence) the people compiling stats would notice pretty quickly. There was a problem with shot location accuracy a few years ago iirc and the analytics crowd identified it almost immediately (and the NHL fixed it...retroactively as well I think).
 
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Gm0ney said:
Edge.nhl.com has a lot of that stuff. Top speed, speed bursts, shot speed, shot location, zone time, etc. So that stuff is tracked and public.
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I'm talking more to do with biometrics geared towards load management and recovery

Do you think that when Bones is asked why Ehlers played lower minutes than fans want to see that he'll answer "because every time he plays more than X minutes a game he shows up to the facility the next day and his HRV is dogshit"?

We've been through at least two coaches that allude to something like that when asked about Ehlers usage. We also know that the Jets were early adapters of using tech to monitor and manage workload and rest
 
Buffdog said:
I'm talking more to do with biometrics geared towards load management and recovery

Do you think that when Bones is asked why Ehlers played lower minutes than fans want to see that he'll answer "because every time he plays more than X minutes a game he shows up to the facility the next day and his HRV is dogshit"?

We've been through at least two coaches that allude to something like that when asked about Ehlers usage. We also know that the Jets were early adapters of using tech to monitor and manage workload and rest
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But that same stats must show how Connor-Scheifele lag the same way when hitting 20+ minutes a game... It would be really interesting to be a fly on the wall to understand Maurice and Bowness' thinking - when both have had success with Ehlers on the top line, both had success with rolling four lines and both inexplicably turned away from that... and then doubled down on Connor-Scheif pairing.

The eye-test, the games won and the fancy stats all kind of combine on the Ehlers-Scheif combo... and the Jets treat it like its fkn covid.

Only thing that solves this argument is Ehlers on a new team, top line playing 20 mins.... sadly we better hope that your 'HRV is dogs hit' theory is right because if it's not, this forum is going to melt down hahah
 
I wonder if the NHL will wait until Trouba breaks somebody's neck before they bring any meaningful discipline against him.

And when the victim is paralyzed in hospital, the NHLPA will be complaining that the suspension is too long.
 
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Buffdog said:
I'm talking more to do with biometrics geared towards load management and recovery

Do you think that when Bones is asked why Ehlers played lower minutes than fans want to see that he'll answer "because every time he plays more than X minutes a game he shows up to the facility the next day and his HRV is dogshit"?

We've been through at least two coaches that allude to something like that when asked about Ehlers usage. We also know that the Jets were early adapters of using tech to monitor and manage workload and rest
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This is an interesting suggestion, as there have been subtle implications over the years about Ehlers conditioning levels. It does bring home how much of the player debate around here hinges on pure speculation and personal biases. Everyone included, so those that are most certain are most often those most in the dark.
 
KingBogo said:
This is an interesting suggestion, as there have been subtle implications over the years about Ehlers conditioning levels. It does bring home how much of the player debate around here hinges on pure speculation and personal biases. Everyone included, so those that are most certain are most often those most in the dark.
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For the record, I don't think Ehlers lacks conditioning. Actually, the opposite

He's a fairly small guy that plays the game like he's 25lbs heavier than he actually is and is constantly putting in 100% effort. His exertion seems to be off the charts. I can't think of a single time I've seen him coasting out there

As effective as he is, I think he might even be more so if he did a better job picking his spots

WolfHouse said:
But that same stats must show how Connor-Scheifele lag the same way when hitting 20+ minutes a game... It would be really interesting to be a fly on the wall to understand Maurice and Bowness' thinking - when both have had success with Ehlers on the top line, both had success with rolling four lines and both inexplicably turned away from that... and then doubled down on Connor-Scheif pairing.

The eye-test, the games won and the fancy stats all kind of combine on the Ehlers-Scheif combo... and the Jets treat it like its fkn covid.

Only thing that solves this argument is Ehlers on a new team, top line playing 20 mins.... sadly we better hope that your 'HRV is dogs hit' theory is right because if it's not, this forum is going to melt down hahah
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WRT schief and Connor, I could see them being able to handle bigger minutes than ehlers because Schief is just bigger/stronger and Connor is a lot more selective in how and when he exerts himself and when he doesn't lol (like in the corners and D zone)
 
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Buffdog said:
I'm talking more to do with biometrics geared towards load management and recovery

Do you think that when Bones is asked why Ehlers played lower minutes than fans want to see that he'll answer "because every time he plays more than X minutes a game he shows up to the facility the next day and his HRV is dogshit"?

We've been through at least two coaches that allude to something like that when asked about Ehlers usage. We also know that the Jets were early adapters of using tech to monitor and manage workload and rest
Click to expand...
Maybe they should apply some of that workload management to their goalie...and the rest of the team come playoff time, since they seem to run out of piss and vinegar at precisely the wrong time.
 
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I think they
Gm0ney said:
Maybe they should apply some of that workload management to their goalie...and the rest of the team come playoff time, since they seem to run out of piss and vinegar at precisely the wrong time.
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I think Helle has been overworked every season. The weird thing about him is that he has a ridiculous record in games where he faces 50+ shots (I'd have to look it up but it's insane). If I were made coach for a day, I'd try to keep his starts in the 50 games range. As he ages, even more so

As for the rest of the team in the playoffs, I think it's a lack of willingness to exert themselves moreso than the ability to do so. Which is even more problematic
 
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