Around the NHL 10 - 2022/23

[surixon]

That's the key IMO and might address an earlier point when we state that some players might be moved up over others when they haven't "earned" it -
Maybe the moves are made based need more so than what might be considered fair.

Oh I'm sure there are many factors that play into getting called up or being given an opportunity.

As you mentioned perceived attributes and fit are likely considered. I'm sure politics plays a big role as well. I'm not sure Stanley would have gotten the shot he did with his AHL performance if he was a 5th round pick. The fact that they spent decent assets to trade up and take him in round 1 likely played a big role in him betting one.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Oh I'm sure there are many factors that play into getting called up or being given an opportunity.

As you mentioned perceived attributes and fit are likely considered. I'm sure politics plays a big role as well. I'm not sure Stanley would have gotten the shot he did with his AHL performance if he was a 5th round pick. The fact that they spent decent assets to trade up and take him in round 1 likely played a big role in him betting one.

Not entirely especially at this level. They will give those higher draft picks more rope for sure but it is also all the things they ask these guys to do on and OFF the ice that matters as well

 

[surixon]

Not entirely especially at this level. They will give those higher draft picks more rope for sure but it is also all the things they ask these guys to do on and OFF the ice that matters as well

Sure that is important to as well but performance should be king and noone can tell me with a straight face that Stanley's pre NHL performance at any point warranted NHL time.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

My thoughts on Ville are if he gets his promotion because he is pouting and the organization wants to keep him happy, that in a couple years one of the main topics around here is we have to move the "soft" under performing player before he loses all value. I'm a bit old school, but the competition in professional sports is so relentless it requires even the most talented players to be able to handle the mental pressures of the game.

So ...... there are only 2 possibilities? Either he is doing everything right, or he is pouting.
Human beings are a lot more complicated than that.

I don't see much chance of him getting promoted because he is pouting, if he is.

I agree that the competition is relentless. But that applies to the decision makers too.

Sometimes a player needs a kick in the ass. Other times he needs his hand held a bit. I don't know that either applies to Ville. I know he has never been given much of a shot at the NHL level. A couple of games here and a couple of games there don't give him much chance to adjust to the pace of the NHL. I don't know if he is ready to be given that better shot in the NHL either but I don't know that he is not.

I suspect that the AHL is not challenging him like he needs to be. Is his underwhelming play with the Moose because he is working on his defensive game? Again, I don't know. That would be the best use of his time there. We know he already has the offensive game.

I'm concerned when other supposedly lesser prospects appear to be passing him on the depth charts. I hope that when he is next called up, he is given a long enough trial for him to get comfortable and then show what he can do.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Sure that is important to as well but performance should be king and noone can tell me with a straight face that Stanley's pre NHL performance at any point warranted NHL time.

But he got a shot cuz situation and looked decent In the Canadian division. Since then not so much but Stanley did look capable when he first came up

Heinola? Obviously there's some off the ice issues there. I think he's another in a long list of hfboards.com Jets favorites who is overrated like petan and niku

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I agree with all of this. I think that's why sometimes you see a prospect change orgs and then flourish. It becomes a chicken and egg thing where the org says 'show us you can do it' and the player is demotivated and underperforms, which holds them back further.

I hope that's not the case with Ville, but I'm open to perhaps trading him for a similar prospect that might suit our needs better.

Also, thanks for the correction on Gawanke/ Chisolm. Are they a pair?


That is the one thing I think that is often missing from the competition. In order to make it to the best league in the world, and outperform your peers there is a relentless dedication to performance. You look at a guy like Mark Schiefele who's had some subpar years lately and you can see that you can't ever let your foot off the gas, even when you've 'made it'.

I don't think people have any earthly idea just how difficult it is to be an NHL player.

I like your point about having to keep your foot on the gas to stay there even after you have made it.
I agree that people in general don't really know what it takes to make it at that level. Probably applies to most fields of endeavour.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yes Chisholm and Gawanke are the top pairing on the Moose and often line up behind the Moose top line (Harkins line) they also get the top PP assignment (Not Ville).

We already know that Ville can QB the PP. Maybe this is development of the other guys. Maybe Ville is being coached to work on his D game, his play with and without the puck, positioning, etc. Remove the uncertainty in his game by making sure he always knows what he should be doing and how best to do it with the tools that he has.

Just a thought.

 

[LowLefty]

Oh I'm sure there are many factors that play into getting called up or being given an opportunity.

As you mentioned perceived attributes and fit are likely considered. I'm sure politics plays a big role as well. I'm not sure Stanley would have gotten the shot he did with his AHL performance if he was a 5th round pick. The fact that they spent decent assets to trade up and take him in round 1 likely played a big role in him betting one.

I guess it comes down to how the org makes decisions -
Do they weight them more on perceived fit and attributes - or politics.

 

[surixon]

We already know that Ville can QB the PP. Maybe this is development of the other guys. Maybe Ville is being coached to work on his D game, his play with and without the puck, positioning, etc. Remove the uncertainty in his game by making sure he always knows what he should be doing and how best to do it with the tools that he has.

Just a thought.

Could be but he's largely playing behind the rookies and likely against softer comp then the top pairing and top line. So I'm not really sure if I see a concerted effort to get him out in tougher dzone situations. But that could be the plan. I just see him as someone who is currently lower on the pecking order then a year ago.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Sure that is important to as well but performance should be king and noone can tell me with a straight face that Stanley's pre NHL performance at any point warranted NHL time.

Not sure I agree with this. I thought his performance at the end of the 2021 season and into the playoffs was solid. Hard to pin last year performance just on him. Everyone was awful

 

[surixon]

Not sure I agree with this. I thought his performance at the end of the 2021 season and into the playoffs was solid. Hard to pin last year performance just on him. Everyone was awful

I was talking about his play prior to the NHL. Yes he had a good year relatively speaking in the Canadian division. I was saying I don't think his AHL play the two years prior warranted him staring with the big team and it was largely that he was a former 1st round pick that needed a look prior to him requiring waivers that got him onto the roster.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I was talking about his play prior to the NHL. Yes he had a good year relatively speaking in the Canadian division. I was saying I don't think his AHL play the two years prior warranted him staring with the big team and it was largely that he was a former 1st round pick that needed a look prior to him requiring waivers that got him onto the roster.

I mean there wasn't a lot to choose from during that time. Niku was the other option and I think both got looks that year and I think Stanley did what he needed to do that year to get a look...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Could be but he's largely playing behind the rookies and likely against softer comp then the top pairing and top line. So I'm not really sure if I see a concerted effort to get him out in tougher dzone situations. But that could be the plan. I just see him as someone who is currently lower on the pecking order then a year ago.

But if they are trying to change his D game it would make sense to play him against lesser comp. He may need to be challenged offensively but not defensively.

 

[KingBogo]

So ...... there are only 2 possibilities? Either he is doing everything right, or he is pouting.
Human beings are a lot more complicated than that.

I don't see much chance of him getting promoted because he is pouting, if he is.

I agree that the competition is relentless. But that applies to the decision makers too.

Sometimes a player needs a kick in the ass. Other times he needs his hand held a bit. I don't know that either applies to Ville. I know he has never been given much of a shot at the NHL level. A couple of games here and a couple of games there don't give him much chance to adjust to the pace of the NHL. I don't know if he is ready to be given that better shot in the NHL either but I don't know that he is not.

I suspect that the AHL is not challenging him like he needs to be. Is his underwhelming play with the Moose because he is working on his defensive game? Again, I don't know. That would be the best use of his time there. We know he already has the offensive game.

I'm concerned when other supposedly lesser prospects appear to be passing him on the depth charts. I hope that when he is next called up, he is given a long enough trial for him to get comfortable and then show what he can do.

But I'm curious how Heinola has earned a shot at the NHL while a prospect like Chisholm hasn't? From what I've seen Chisholm is playing much better hockey at the moment and his trajectory as a prospect is very promising. I think Heinola is also a promising prospect, but far from a can't miss difference maker. If I'd have to bet I's say Heinola maxes out as a Pionk light. Nice offence chops, but struggles defensively. I just don't think he will ever have Pionk's willingness to engage physically. Does an organization really want to fast track him over other prospects or are they better served to see who rises to the top through internal competition? Heinola is still waiver exempt next season while Samberg, Chisholm and Gawanke aren't.

 

[Mud Turtle]

Hey what do you know. The Winnipeg Jets have a better record than the top team in the league during the regular season last year.
I wonder why the Jets could be having more success and the Panthers aren’t nearly as good?

 

[RabidOne]

So ...... there are only 2 possibilities? Either he is doing everything right, or he is pouting.
Human beings are a lot more complicated than that.

I don't see much chance of him getting promoted because he is pouting, if he is.

I agree that the competition is relentless. But that applies to the decision makers too.

Sometimes a player needs a kick in the ass. Other times he needs his hand held a bit. I don't know that either applies to Ville. I know he has never been given much of a shot at the NHL level. A couple of games here and a couple of games there don't give him much chance to adjust to the pace of the NHL. I don't know if he is ready to be given that better shot in the NHL either but I don't know that he is not.

I suspect that the AHL is not challenging him like he needs to be. Is his underwhelming play with the Moose because he is working on his defensive game? Again, I don't know. That would be the best use of his time there. We know he already has the offensive game.

I'm concerned when other supposedly lesser prospects appear to be passing him on the depth charts. I hope that when he is next called up, he is given a long enough trial for him to get comfortable and then show what he can do.

To quote the hated stat: Ville has 4 points and a +7, Chisolm 7 points and a -4.
So maybe they are asking him to work on D side of things?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

To quote the hated stat: Ville has 4 points and a +7, Chisolm 7 points and a -4.
So maybe they are asking him to work on D side of things?

I would hate to get conformation from that stat.

I'm sure that stat does actually show something. Trouble is it will show one thing this time, something else next time and another thing the time after that. You need so much context to decipher what it actually showed in any one case that, by the time you gather all of the context, you already have a better picture of events from all of that context.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

But I'm curious how Heinola has earned a shot at the NHL while a prospect like Chisholm hasn't? From what I've seen Chisholm is playing much better hockey at the moment and his trajectory as a prospect is very promising. I think Heinola is also a promising prospect, but far from a can't miss difference maker. If I'd have to bet I's say Heinola maxes out as a Pionk light. Nice offence chops, but struggles defensively. I just don't think he will ever have Pionk's willingness to engage physically. Does an organization really want to fast track him over other prospects or are they better served to see who rises to the top through internal competition? Heinola is still waiver exempt next season while Samberg, Chisholm and Gawanke aren't.

I wouldn't argue with that. Last year and out of TC this year, I think Heinola earned a better look than he was given when he was called up.

Out of TC it looks like it was between him and Snerg. I thought Ville earned the shot ahead of Samberg. But I was not too upset that Samberg got the chance. I think it was close enough to go either way. Snerg is older and plays a different style that they may have preferred.

Who gets called up if we have another D injury? Does it depend on whether the injured player is a LHS or a RHS? Ville could play either side but we have Chisholm on the left and Gawanke on the right.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Hey what do you know. The Winnipeg Jets have a better record than the top team in the league during the regular season last year.
I wonder why the Jets could be having more success and the Panthers aren’t nearly as good?

Paul Maurice.

Saw a recent Maurice post game interview. He was talking about the need to earn the right to play the right way during the playoffs or some incoherent gibberish similar to that. Focused on the playoffs? - he should look at the standings and the 10 teams in the East that are above them. Then he was talking about how tough their division is - always trying to lower expectations that guy. It's early, and the team is so laden with talent that if all else fails, Paul could just stop coaching the whole team and they would probably make the playoffs. Maybe that is his backup plan.

 

[tbcwpg]

Paul Maurice.

Saw a recent Maurice post game interview. He was talking about the need to earn the right to play the right way during the playoffs or some incoherent gibberish similar to that. Focused on the playoffs? - he should look at the standings and the 10 teams in the East that are above them. Then he was talking about how tough their division is - always trying to lower expectations that guy. It's early, and the team is so laden with talent that if all else fails, Paul could just stop coaching the whole team and they would probably make the playoffs. Maybe that is his backup plan.

It is the toughest division in the league, but there's no reason that team shouldn't be in the top 4 spots in the Atlantic at the end of the year.

 

[ps241]

It is the toughest division in the league, but there's no reason that team shouldn't be in the top 4 spots in the Atlantic at the end of the year.

Just stat watching it looks like many of the players on last years high scoring team arre off to a slower starts. Rienhart has 2 points in 10 games?? Both goalies are sub .900 at this point. Hubs had a 115 point career season which really carried the offense on that team.

 

[tbcwpg]

Just stat watching it looks like many of the players on last years high scoring team arre off to a slower starts. Rienhart has 2 points in 10 games?? Both goalies are sub .900 at this point. Hubs had a 115 point career season which really carried the offense on that team.

Their blue line is razor thin without Ekblad and management there gave up a bunch of offence for Tkachuk. People will point to Maurice if they dip, but a dip was always going to happen from last year's Presidents Trophy team.

Their numbers are fine, as you mention their goaltending hasn't been good. Once that shapes up they'll be a comfortable playoff team. Whether they go beyond round 1 is a different story, but they should be there.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Kinda surprised to see so many posts about Heinola's falling stock here -- we're back home in the UK now, and while we were Moose ST holders for years, the AHL online product isn't worth the spend or frustration to make work over here, so I've gone from watching most Moose games to the odd highlight.

I have watches Chisholm for years and have always liked his game -- he's a terrific skater and smart player, all-rounder who does most things well but lacks the vision and passing / O-zone brilliance of Heinola, IMO. That may or may not make him a safer bet but I wouldn't say they have the same ceiling.

In terms of "pouting" -- not sure how plausible that is, given Ville's past work ethic, but I suppose this TC might have been the proverbial straw? If so, it's not good news, and maybe he's looking for a trade to greener pastures.

But the Jets are not blameless in this LHD backlog. Going into TC there was one D spot for 3 candidates, and while there was much backslapping chatter about how great it was to see competition for it that chatter glosses over the truth that any or all of those 3 could have played like Lidstrom and still not dislodged any of Pionk, Dillon or Schmidt whose spots are assured because of vetness and salary.

Chevy could have sorted this backlog out years ago, during the Covid stoppage and then the CDN Division seasons, choosing to play Stan, Samberg and/ or Heinola over the parade of plugs he brought in who maybe, barely scraped replacement value. Why was Beaulieu playing top minutes over pressboxed prospect talent? Was a beaten-up Sbisa or Bitetto really better than rookie Stan or Sberg? When were all of these vaunted prospects going to get proper playing time to ease them into their careers, just as the team needed some solid value from ELC D?

Three young(er) players, one spot. Given the term, salary and difficulty of trading a Pionk, Schmidt or even Dillon (though he's easier), there may still be one spot next season also. And now it's four or five young players, as waiver eligibility comes into play for Chisholm.

So hopefully no one is pouting down on the farm, but they may well be asking themselves what they see ahead of them, and how soon they can get out to chase an opportunity elsewhere. I think great development also includes having plausible paths forwards for prospects, so they have something to work towards. And it seems like the Jets have dropped the ball here, at least where LHDs are concerned.

I'm sure Kovacevic is an interesting path for them to see unfolding.

Also, I'm getting tired of the Niku / Petan BS. Not every prospect who doesn't pan out is an entitled loafer whose fate is solely in their own hands. Shit happens. Management isn't flawless. Coaches aren't as smart or unbiased as they think they are. Injuries linger. Development isn't linear. Players get blocked for all sorts of reasons -- it isn't automatically down to character flaws or not wanting it enough, etc.

 

[surixon]

Kinda surprised to see so many posts about Heinola's falling stock here -- we're back home in the UK now, and while we were Moose ST holders for years, the AHL online product isn't worth the spend or frustration to make work over here, so I've gone from watching most Moose games to the odd highlight.

I have watches Chisholm for years and have always liked his game -- he's a terrific skater and smart player, all-rounder who does most things well but lacks the vision and passing / O-zone brilliance of Heinola, IMO. That may or may not make him a safer bet but I wouldn't say they have the same ceiling.

In terms of "pouting" -- not sure how plausible that is, given Ville's past work ethic, but I suppose this TC might have been the proverbial straw? If so, it's not good news, and maybe he's looking for a trade to greener pastures.

But the Jets are not blameless in this LHD backlog. Going into TC there was one D spot for 3 candidates, and while there was much backslapping chatter about how great it was to see competition for it that chatter glosses over the truth that any or all of those 3 could have played like Lidstrom and still not dislodged any of Pionk, Dillon or Schmidt whose spots are assured because of vetness and salary.

Chevy could have sorted this backlog out years ago, during the Covid stoppage and then the CDN Division seasons, choosing to play Stan, Samberg and/ or Heinola over the parade of plugs he brought in who maybe, barely scraped replacement value. Why was Beaulieu playing top minutes over pressboxed prospect talent? Was a beaten-up Sbisa or Bitetto really better than rookie Stan or Sberg? When were all of these vaunted prospects going to get proper playing time to ease them into their careers, just as the team needed some solid value from ELC D?

Three young(er) players, one spot. Given the term, salary and difficulty of trading a Pionk, Schmidt or even Dillon (though he's easier), there may still be one spot next season also. And now it's four or five young players, as waiver eligibility comes into play for Chisholm.

So hopefully no one is pouting down on the farm, but they may well be asking themselves what they see ahead of them, and how soon they can get out to chase an opportunity elsewhere. I think great development also includes having plausible paths forwards for prospects, so they have something to work towards. And it seems like the Jets have dropped the ball here, at least where LHDs are concerned.

I'm sure Kovacevic is an interesting path for them to see unfolding.

Also, I'm getting tired of the Niku / Petan BS. Not every prospect is an entitled loafer whose fate is solely in their own hands. Shit happens. Management isn't flawless. Coaches aren't as smart or unbiased as they think they are. Injuries linger. Development isn't linear. Players get blocked for all sorts of reasons -- it isn't automatically down to character flaws or not wanting it enough, etc.

Well said. As I've mentioned before I think the org does a good job at creating opportunities for their forward prospects.

They seem to not do a very good job creating paths for their d prospects to get to the NHL.

 

[KingBogo]

Well said. As I've mentioned before I think the org does a good job at creating opportunities for their forward prospects.

They seem to not do a very good job creating paths for their d prospects to get to the NHL.

I see the organization as having a relatively set path for the development of their defensman prospects and have only deviated from it for their 2 highest drafted prospects in Trouba and Morrissey. Gradually move up the organization and then NHL opportunity is given in year 3 of the ELC and if their is no room on the NHL roster an increased role on the Moose. The argument is whether Heinola is an elite enough of a prospect to be put in the Trouba Morrissey grouping.