Around the League

[jaster]

Also not sure I totally believe the guys who say they were fine with it. Maybe they were less bothered by it, but when bad shit happens like that, sports teams have a tendency to try to close ranks and protect themselves from the media. Lots of things get handled internally while outwardly claiming everything is hunky dory.

 

[Bondurant]

Babcock discussion on the latest Chiclets is worth a listen. Chelios was the first guest and he pulled no punches about his dealings with Babs.

 

[jaster]

Babcock discussion on the latest Chiclets is worth a listen. Chelios was the first guest and he pulled no punches about his dealings with Babs.

Nice, thanks for the tip. I'll definitely give it a listen on my way home today.

 

[Run the Jewels]

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Wow...just wow. I hope Babcock never sees ice another day in his life.

 

[jaster]

Wow...just wow. I hope Babcock never sees ice another day in his life.

Every time people attack Commodore they are missing the point unfortunately, though I can kind of get it given how aggressive he is. But people attacking Biz over this is hilarious.

Oh, also, pretty cool to hear Whit bring up the janitor story I’ve mentioned on this forum a couple times in the past. My wife’s friend, who we just hung out with on Sunday, was there for that incident at JLA back in the day. There were a handful of Wings employees who saw it.

The guy is horrible and I’m glad so many people are now realizing it.

 

[Ricelund]

Every time people attack Commodore they are missing the point unfortunately, though I can kind of get it given how aggressive he is. But people attacking Biz over this is hilarious.

Oh, also, pretty cool to hear Whit bring up the janitor story I’ve mentioned on this forum a couple times in the past. My wife’s friend, who we just hung out with on Sunday, was there for that incident at JLA back in the day. There were a handful of Wings employees who saw it.

The guy is horrible and I’m glad so many people are now realizing it.

The Franzen stuff is just brutal.

 

[jaster]

The Franzen stuff is just brutal.

But he didn’t know about Franzen’s mental problems at the time!

/s

Yep I agree.

 

[Oddbob]

The Franzen stuff is just brutal.

Yeah, the fat pig stuff is such bull shit.

 

[izlez]

I do enjoy the bit where he says "this isn't cancel culture" then goes on to describe cancel culture, but in a "bro" way for the next minute.

This is EXACTLY what "cancel culture" is. It has just (successfully, intentionally) been given a bad connotation even though this happens from all sides and always has, so you want to call it something different.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I do enjoy the bit where he says "this isn't cancel culture" then goes on to describe cancel culture, but in a "bro" way for the next minute.

This is EXACTLY what "cancel culture" is. It has just (successfully, intentionally) been given a bad connotation even though this happens from all sides and always has, so you want to call it something different.

It's called consequences for unacceptable behavior. Babcock never learned and his comments when resigning were a joke.

 

[Ricelund]

I do enjoy the bit where he says "this isn't cancel culture" then goes on to describe cancel culture, but in a "bro" way for the next minute.

This is EXACTLY what "cancel culture" is. It has just (successfully, intentionally) been given a bad connotation even though this happens from all sides and always has, so you want to call it something different.

"Getting fired for being repeatedly abusive to subordinates is CaNcEl CuLtUrE"

 

[jaster]

I do enjoy the bit where he says "this isn't cancel culture" then goes on to describe cancel culture, but in a "bro" way for the next minute.

This is EXACTLY what "cancel culture" is. It has just (successfully, intentionally) been given a bad connotation even though this happens from all sides and always has, so you want to call it something different.

Did the term "cancel culture" exist before it was deployed to describe a make believe wide-spread phenomenon where people unjustly or unfairly lose opportunities, jobs, or platforms? The way Biz described it is the only way I've seen the term used. And in that way, he's right, Babcock's situation isn't cancel culture.

I just don't recall a time when "cancel culture" described people being let go, fired, or removed because they deserved it. It was always, "he doesn't deserve this!" But I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and forgetting lol.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

But he didn’t know about Franzen’s mental problems at the time!

/s

Yep I agree.

Hey, way to take something I've said completely out of context and make a smartass comment about it without even making it directly to me. Good job trolling.

 

[jaster]

Hey, way to take something I've said completely out of context and make a smartass comment about it without even making it directly to me. Good job trolling.

Relax. That was very much directed at all the people who have ever said that. You're far from the only one. And it's not out of context. It's people who haven't known exactly what Babcock is about and want to believe he's something else. But the excuses made for why Babcock isn't as bad as he actually is are wearing pretty damn thin these days.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Relax. That was very much directed at all the people who have ever said that. You're far from the only one. And it's not out of context. It's people who haven't known exactly what Babcock is about and want to believe he's something else. But the excuses made for why Babcock isn't as bad as he actually is are wearing pretty damn thin these days.

Sure thing. It alludes to a post I made in this very thread and yes it is out of context.

EDIT:

The biggest thing I'm guilty of with Babcock is once again trying to make the futile point on hboards that facts matter. He is the wrong hill to die on for that, but it's also instances as dramatic as Babs that bring out the most hyperbole. And as an old timer here to provide some context about how could someone like Babcock coach in this league when really he's a knockoff from Bowman and Keenan.

And underneath all that is probably my frustration that for the 30+ page thread on Babcock, why wasn't there a 100+ one on Bill Peters? Why does Commie get a pass for his obsession about Babcock "ruining his career" but if you mention Aliu's name the very next post will be to discount what happened to him because he wasn't good enough to make the NHL.

 

[izlez]

I just don't recall a time when "cancel culture" described people being let go, fired, or removed because they deserved it. It was always, "he doesn't deserve this!" But I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and forgetting lol.

Maybe this is the point I'm trying to make.

People will cry about cancel culture because "sure, he probably made disrespectful sexual comments to a subordinate on a daily basis, but he doesn't deserve to be fired! Innocent until proven guilty!"

The only difference between that and the Babcock situation, as far as Bissonnette goes, is that he personally feels like he deserves it, so its not "cancel culture" to him

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Cancel culture - Wikipedia

Americans and ‘Cancel Culture’: Where Some See Calls for Accountability, Others See Censorship, Punishment

Why we can’t stop fighting about cancel culture

I think we can skip the debate about cancel culture now. Babcock is being held accountable for doing what he did in Columbus. The players were wary of him because of his time in Toronto and that must have played a part in why they spoke out about him.

 

[jaster]

Sure thing. It alludes to a post I made in this very thread and yes it is out of context.

My comment was triggered by my reading that sentiment from multiple people over the months/years. And that includes any previous post in this thread, yeah. It's not out of context because the only reason one would bring that up is if they are implying Babcock would have treated Franzen differently had he known. He wouldn't. Mike Babcock does not give a shit about your life problems. Known or unknown, they are not on his radar nor part of his calculations. That's just who he is.

EDIT:

The biggest thing I'm guilty of with Babcock is once again trying to make the futile point on hboards that facts matter. He is the wrong hill to die on for that, but it's also instances as dramatic as Babs that bring out the most hyperbole. And as an old timer here to provide some context about how could someone like Babcock coach in this league when really he's a knockoff from Bowman and Keenan.

And underneath all that is probably my frustration that for the 30+ page thread on Babcock, why wasn't there a 100+ one on Bill Peters? Why does Commie get a pass for his obsession about Babcock "ruining his career" but if you mention Aliu's name the very next post will be to discount what happened to him because he wasn't good enough to make the NHL.

The biggest thing you're guilty of is still not understanding who Babcock is. He is not a knock-off of anyone. Part of his rough approach or style may be a knock-off of other old school coaches, but he takes it to a different level because there is a complete void in Mike Babcock's head where empathy lies for everyone else. I'm not saying he's the worst human to ever coach in the NHL, but he's not directly comparable to anyone else either. And while you've told me that Bowman being a nice guy for the last 20 years doesn't count, the point was always that Bowman at least has exhibited the ability to be a normal human.... at any point at all in his life. Babcock has not done that, and I will change my username to Lazlo was right about Babcock if he ever does.

Now, for your last point, hey, I'm 100% on board. Take all ghouls to task. Although it does seem odd that you are exhibiting frustration over people discounting Aliu for not being good enough when you keep discounting Commie and Cheli and others because they weren't good enough or young enough.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

My comment was triggered by my reading that sentiment from multiple people over the months/years. And that includes any previous post in this thread, yeah. It's not out of context because the only reason one would bring that up is if they are implying Babcock would have treated Franzen differently had he known. He wouldn't. Mike Babcock does not give a shit about your life problems. Known or unknown, they are not on his radar nor part of his calculations. That's just who he is.


The biggest thing you're guilty of is still not understanding who Babcock is. He is not a knock-off of anyone. Part of his rough approach or style may be a knock-off of other old school coaches, but he takes it to a different level because there is a complete void in Mike Babcock's head where empathy lies for everyone else. I'm not saying he's the worst human to ever coach in the NHL, but he's not directly comparable to anyone else either. And while you've told me that Bowman being a nice guy for the last 20 years doesn't count, the point was always that Bowman at least has exhibited the ability to be a normal human.... at any point at all in his life. Babcock has not done that, and I will change my username to Lazlo was right about Babcock if he ever does.

Now, for your last point, hey, I'm 100% on board. Take all ghouls to task. Although it does seem odd that you are exhibiting frustration over people discounting Aliu for not being good enough when you keep discounting Commie and Cheli and others because they weren't good enough or young enough.

He's not a knock off but he is a knock off? When I talk about Bowman I'm referring to his coaching career. I didn't think I needed to make that fairly obvious point clear.

As for Babcock not giving a shit about life problems THATS MY POINT. With Franzen people say he messed with Mule in spite of his mental health issues. But it sounds like no one knew about those at the time and if anyone did it certainly wouldn't be Babcock. And he probably wouldn't give a shit anyway. Also people were arguing that he had some diabolical plan to f*** with Modano to prevent him from getting to his 1,500th game. My point is he probably didn't give two shits about Modano hitting that milestone. And he also didn't give a shit enough about Modano in general to invest that sort of time in messing with him.

Why would you change your name to me being right about Babcock? I never made any claims about Babcock being a normal human or nice guy. I've stated multiple times that Babcock seems incapable of understanding basic human emotion. I can't even count the number of times i've called him an egomaniac and an a-hole, but go ahead, continue misrepresenting what I've said so you can pat yourself on the back.

jesus. that amount of words I've wasted on Babcock and you is ridiculous.

 

[jaster]

He's not a knock off but he is a knock off?

Saying he's just a knock-off of other coaches makes it sound like he's the same, and it discounts where he is different, and worse. In that way, he is not a knock-off. He just has some tendencies that are the same. But those rough tendencies are not the problem with Babcock. It's the worse stuff that is the problem.

When I talk about Bowman I'm referring to his coaching career. I didn't think I needed to make that fairly obvious point clear.

Why would you change your name to me being right about Babcock? I never made any claims about Babcock being a normal human or nice guy. I've stated multiple times that Babcock seems incapable of understanding basic human emotion. I can't even count the number of times i've called him an egomaniac and an a-hole, but go ahead, continue misrepresenting what I've said.

There's no misrepresentation. You continue to insist that Babcock is no worse than Bowman. I'm saying he is. And if Babcock ever turns into a decent human being, it would go a long way towards you being right. But he won't, because he's not capable.

Why do you subscribe to every player story that has come out about Bowman but continue to brush stories from them about Babcock aside?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Saying he's just a knock-off of other coaches makes it sound like he's the same, and it discounts where he is different, and worse. In that way, he is not a knock-off. He just has some tendencies that are the same. But those rough tendencies are not the problem with Babcock. It's the worse stuff that is the problem.


There's no misrepresentation. You continue to insist that Babcock is no worse than Bowman. I'm saying he is. And if Babcock ever turns into a decent human being, it would go a long way towards you being right. But he won't, because he's not capable.

Why do you subscribe to every player story that has come out about Bowman but continue to brush stories from them about Babcock aside?

Why do you assume it's me subscribing to every Bowman story? I've been a fan of the Wings and hockey since the mid 80s. Bowman being an asshole wasn't even debated. It was like calling water wet. It's why he was constantly referred to as an evil genius. The Wings kept underachieving and then they managed to bring in the hardass of all hardasses.

But then the Wings win 3 Cups with Scotty and he softens some in his old age, and his history gets whitewashed. Babcock is in the same mold of guys like Keenan and Bowman. What changed, thankfully, is the times. I'm not downplaying what Babcock did, I'm just not revising what older coaches did.

I'm seriously done with this topic, and you.

 

[jaster]

Why do you assume it's me subscribing to every Bowman story? I've been a fan of the Wings and hockey since the mid 80s. Bowman being an asshole wasn't even debated. It was like calling water wet. It's why he was constantly referred to as an evil genius. The Wings kept underachieving and then they managed to bring in the hardass of all hardasses.

But then the Wings win 3 Cups with Scotty and he softens some in his old age, and his history gets whitewashed. Babcock is in the same mold of guys like Keenan and Bowman. What changed, thankfully, is the times. I'm not downplaying what Babcock did, I'm just not revising what older coaches did.

I'm seriously done with this topic, and you.

You subscribe to every Bowman story because everything I've ever seen you say about Bowman has come from interviews and articles with quotes from players. Do you have Bowman stories that weren't published? And I'm not saying to not believe those guys. Believe them, for sure. But then every time there are statements from players about Babcock you've got some excuse about why we don't need to listen to them. Commie sucked anyway. Chelios was old anyway. They're just crying. Franzen had unknown mental health issues. All these guys had axes to grind. As if they are any less credible than the players you cite about Bowman. COME. ON. MAN. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You subscribe to every Bowman story because everything I've ever seen you say about Bowman has come from interviews and articles with quotes from players. Do you have Bowman stories that weren't published? And I'm not saying to not believe those guys. Believe them, for sure. But then every time there are statements from players about Babcock you've got some excuse about why we don't need to listen to them. Commie sucked anyway. Chelios was old anyway. They're just crying. Franzen had unknown mental health issues. All these guys had axes to grind. As if they are any less credible than the players you cite about Bowman. COME. ON. MAN. You can't have it both ways.

You should focus on something I've actually stated.

I'm seriously done with this topic, and you.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Guys, I'm not a mod here but why fight amongst ourselves when there are hundreds of Senators, Leafs and Canadiens fans on this board? Save that spark for our enemies.