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norrisnick said:
I'm not sure that the nature of the target of a bully really makes any difference regarding deserving redemption efforts. Bullies are adapt at picking out those that are vulnerable. Peters went ez-mode by picking race, but identifying those with confidence and esteem issues is no less insidious.
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The issue I have with that is how myself and many Wings fans felt about Franzen before his mental health issues were known. It’s not hard to imagine a coach feeling similarly of “how can this guy take over a a game one night and then disappear for a long stretch? He’s lazy and floats too often.”

That’s not an excuse for whatever awful things Babcock said. But puts it into the context of riding a player who he felt was underperforming than just picking out the runt of the pack.

One is cruelty for cruelty’s sake. The other is cruelty because in your asshole mind you think it’s effective.

The things Babcock said after knowing mules mental state are what demonstrate a staggering amount of ego. Is it so hard to apologize and say he had no idea. He was trying to get the best out of Franzen but his methods were cruel and what he did was wrong and is sorry?
 
Lazlo Hollyfeld said:
I’m not defending him. I’m just not giving into the revisionist history and hyperbole.

As I’ve stated countless times before, He seemed like an asshole coach and not that great of a person. It sounds like he was especially mean to Franzen but Mules mental health issues weren’t really known at the time. Yet people act as if Babcock did this knowing Mules issues. Sorry if I don’t give into crying by guys like Cheli and Commie who have an axe to grind.

Maybe it’s growing up with coaches like Keenan and Bowman around I’m not particularly surprised by his antics. Yes I know Babcock never achieved Bowman’s success but he also never reached Bowmans level of cruelty to players and civilians alike.

Babcock seems like an egomaniac even among coaches, and also seems to lack self awareness. While the things he’s accused of are dickish, it’s still not proportional to the vitriol.

He was considered one of the best coaches in the league prior to going to the Leafs. And even those Wings fans who thought it was time for him to move on (myself included) generally felt he was a very good coach. Now he’s a monster and overrated and even underachieved with the Wings, which is particularly hilarious. But that’s what happens when you fly too close to the sun and touch that shitshow that is the Maple Leafs.

In the thread about Babcock on the main page people believed a podcaster to condemn Babcock. There were many more “deserves a second chance” posts In the thread about Bill Peters. That’s messed up.

(Edit: to be clear that’s not me saying I think Babcock deserves more support. Just that Peters deserves much less. )
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That was a much more serious response to my post that was 95% a Step Brothers reference/joke than I expected :D

TBH, I don't spend any time on the main board, or in comment sections. I really only talk about the Wings on this forum and with guys I skate with IRL. So if there's hypocrisy, inconsistent application of standards, whatever, elsewhere then I largely don't see it. I just know the guy is a huge pile of shit, and when you have enough players speaking out, it becomes difficult to write them all off as 'they were old,' 'they weren't good,' 'they had unknown mental health issues.' At some point, it's just the shitty guy being a shitty guy, and I'm going to believe and side with the collective group that has been saying hey, this is a shitty guy. And that's without knowing from people I'm close to and have worked with him that he's indeed a shitty guy, much moreso than Bowman. He's the kinda guy who will have a janitor fired because he slipped on a wet spot standing at the urinal. Never mind it was his own piss he slipped on.
 
jaster said:
That was a much more serious response to my post that was 95% a Step Brothers reference/joke than I expected :D

TBH, I don't spend any time on the main board, or in comment sections. I really only talk about the Wings on this forum and with guys I skate with IRL. So if there's hypocrisy, inconsistent application of standards, whatever, elsewhere then I largely don't see it. I just know the guy is a huge pile of shit, and when you have enough players speaking out, it becomes difficult to write them all off as 'they were old,' 'they weren't good,' 'they had unknown mental health issues.' At some point, it's just the shitty guy being a shitty guy, and I'm going to believe and side with the collective group that has been saying hey, this is a shitty guy. And that's without knowing from people I'm close to and have worked with him that he's indeed a shitty guy, much moreso than Bowman. He's the kinda guy who will have a janitor fired because he slipped on a wet spot standing at the urinal. Never mind it was his own piss he slipped on.
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Understood.

The only part I’d push back on is worse than Bowman. Scotty’s reputation got whitewashed as he got older and retired. But he was a total POS to players and every day people he interacted with for years and years.
 
Lazlo Hollyfeld said:
Understood.

The only part I’d push back on is worse than Bowman. Scotty’s reputation got whitewashed as he got older and retired. But he was a total POS to players and every day people he interacted with for years and years.
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Bowman in his later years was not the guy he was described as by players like Ciccarelli and Burr (I think) back in the 90s. My wife and her best friend worked around Scotty on a daily basis back in the early 2000s and he was nothing but pleasant to them and others working at JLA. Meanwhile, her best friend and a couple other friends went on to work around Babcock as well, and he was nothing but unpleasant most of the time, and a POS the rest of the time. People at JLA avoided Babcock. That wasn't the case with Bowman, at least not in the later years. Now maybe Babcock turns into a nice guy in 20 years as well, who can say. But if those early stories of Bowman treating common people poorly are true, I'm here to say that Babcock has been no better.

Players are a different story maybe. All any of us know about that is from the stories that have come out. But if we aren't willing to take the work of Commy and Chelios about Babcock, why be willing to take the words of the other guys about Bowman?
 
jaster said:
Bowman in his later years was not the guy he was described as by players like Ciccarelli and Burr (I think) back in the 90s. My wife and her best friend worked around Scotty on a daily basis back in the early 2000s and he was nothing but pleasant to them and others working at JLA. Meanwhile, her best friend and a couple other friends went on to work around Babcock as well, and he was nothing but unpleasant most of the time, and a POS the rest of the time. People at JLA avoided Babcock. That wasn't the case with Bowman, at least not in the later years. Now maybe Babcock turns into a nice guy in 20 years as well, who can say. But if those early stories of Bowman treating common people poorly are true, I'm here to say that Babcock has been no better.

Players are a different story maybe. All any of us know about that is from the stories that have come out. But if we aren't willing to take the work of Commy and Chelios about Babcock, why be willing to take the words of the other guys about Bowman?
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Because it wasn’t just a few bitter players like with Commie and Cheli. It was known by everyone. It wasn’t a secret. Hence the player credo you hated Bowman every day of the year except the one you lifted the Cup.

When he first came to Detroit he went after Yzerman relentlessly. Yzerman never really understood why exactly. Then eventually it just stopped and he moved on to someone else.

Bowman being nicer for four years doesn’t erase him being an asshole for decades.

Edit: I don’t want to spend any more words on either of those A-holes. I’m thankful for the Cup wins. And I judge Babcock on the shitty things he’s actually done. Not the misrepresentation of them that so often is posted here.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld said:
Because it wasn’t just a few bitter players like with Commie and Cheli. It was known by everyone. It wasn’t a secret. Hence the player credo you hated Bowman every day of the year except the one you lifted the Cup.

When he first came to Detroit he went after Yzerman relentlessly. Yzerman never really understood why exactly. Then eventually it just stopped and he moved on to someone else.

Bowman being nicer for four years doesn’t erase him being an asshole for decades.

Edit: I don’t want to spend any more words on either of those A-holes. I’m thankful for the Cup wins. And I judge Babcock on the shitty things he’s actually done. Not the misrepresentation of them that so often is posted here.
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Given how many players Bowman coached vs Babcock, I don't think there's an appreciably larger number of Bowman detractors than Babcock detractors. And most of Babcock players are still playing, so you won't hear as much. We agree that they've both been shitty people, I just don't see a chasm between the two in just how shitty, where you do. I've yet to see a convincing argument that Bowman was any worse than Babcock. But alas, we shall continue to agree to disagree.
 
I know nuance is a death sentence on the internet, but I'll take the unironically bold stance of "both of these things can be true. Babcock is a piece of shit...but also this silly story is blown way out of proportion and Bisonette is making a big deal out of what is probably a nothing burger."
 
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Babcock does a lot of things I don't agree with or like, like the Marner list and this CBJ thing of asking for photos on people's phones. But I also think how "bad" a guy/coach he is is massively overblown. Sure, he was an ass to Franzen, but Franzen's mental issues were not a super well known thing then, and while a good amount of players may not have liked him, it isn't like he was treating every single person he met, like crap as seems to be the rep he has now. I feel like there probably is not that much that separates him from how Bowman treated people. Players were always saying Bowman played mind games and worse which can be a super ass thing to do as well.
 
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Watching Bedard get a hatty.

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SoupNazi said:
I wonder how many more teams this psycho gets hired by to only get fired and paid?

Sounds like a good scam if you can get the work...
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Even for the NHL I gotta say none.

Not even because of any principled stance on their part. Babcock is too radioactive to be worth the trouble and will remain that way for a long time.

He had a second chance, and even after volunteering as a coach with college students and having three kids of his own, whatever exactly went down regarding phones he managed to creep several young players the F out before camp even started. Like I said, I seriously think the guy has trouble understanding basic human emotion. The dude should resign from any part of any mental health awareness campaign after making a sizable contribution, then get lots and lots of therapy.
 
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Hopefully the outrage around Babcock's return will give the league pause on reinstating Quenneville and Bowman. Because I'm guessing they're planning on it within a few seasons. Or sooner.
 
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yeah I have a tough time seeing any NHL team hire Babcock as a Coach again after his comeback ended THIS quickly

like maybe if he'd at least coached a season first or something I could see it but he didn't even make it to the start of the season let alone the end of it
 
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