Around the League Thread | The one where the NHL once again is the worst.

[LemonSauceD]

Interesting

 

[Hit the post]

nobody is building another arena, lol. the canucks won't even build a practice facility.

Yeah funny thing is, in the leftist hippy province of BC, Rogers Arena was completely privately funded. Unlike the Edmonton arena in the capitalist utopia known as Alberta (granted, Edmonton isn't remotely as right leaning as the rest of the province).

Think there would be *ZERO* public support for a publically funded arena & Aquaman probably doesn't want to build the arena with his own....errr his dad's money.

As an aside, probably the main reason (among other reasons) the NBA will never return to Vancouver (eg., new arena required).

 

[Bgav]

Remember when the oilers lost in game 7? Good times #hahaclassic

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

What are we doing with the pitchforks folks?

I needed some time to digest, and probably still do.

I think the victims' feelings of the matter are of the most paramount importance. Kyle Beach being involved is significant. But no mention of John Doe # 2, or the victim from the college that the predator went on to.

But at the end of the day, my feelings? A job in pro hockey is a privilege, not a right. And my feeling is these men shat all over that privilege, and should not be given that opportunity again. Maybe that makes me cold and unforgiving, but I'm at peace with that.

So, no - I don't think they should be back in the NHL. Sheldon has the right to his perspective, and I applaud him for putting out an extremely detailed rationale for why he feels the way he does - which really just sheds a light on how pathetically lacklustre the NHL's explanation was. And it's one thing to suggest someone is deserving of a second chance, like Sheldon has. But the sycophantic toadyism that Seravalli displays, on the other hand, is shallowly driven by his need to keep his cushy insider status and a shameless attempt to lay the bricks that make up the road to these guys getting back into the NHL. And don't get me wrong, I think all of the other insiders who question nothing and report nothing if it might inconvenience the NHL are equally morally bankrupt. But Seravalli is perhaps the biggest piece of shit of all.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I needed some time to digest, and probably still do.

I think the victims' feelings of the matter are of the most paramount importance. Kyle Beach being involved is significant. But no mention of John Doe # 2, or the victim from the college that the predator went on to.

But at the end of the day, my feelings? A job in pro hockey is a privilege, not a right. And my feeling is these men shat all over that privilege, and should not be given that opportunity again. Maybe that makes me cold and unforgiving, but I'm at peace with that.

So, no - I don't think they should be back in the NHL. Sheldon has the right to his perspective, and I applaud him for putting out an extremely detailed rationale for why he feels the way he does - which really just sheds a light on how pathetically lacklustre the NHL's explanation was. And it's one thing to suggest someone is deserving of a second chance, like Sheldon has. But the sycophantic toadyism that Seravalli displays, on the other hand, is shallowly driven by his need to keep his cushy insider status and a shameless attempt to lay the bricks that make up the road to these guys getting back into the NHL. And don't get me wrong, I think all of the other insiders who question nothing and report nothing if it might inconvenience the NHL are equally morally bankrupt. But Seravalli is perhaps the biggest piece of shit of all.

One more thought on top of this.

If I was party to failing to report a sexual assault in my workplace, I would be fired without question.

If I did the work and learned from my mistakes and evolved as a human being because of it, there is still no question in my mind that my employer would never, ever, hire me again. Should I be able to go and get a job doing something else? Sure. But I would never be able to work where I had.

And that should be applied to these people. In my opinion.

 

[mriswith]

One more thought on top of this.

If I was party to failing to report a sexual assault in my workplace, I would be fired without question.

If I did the work and learned from my mistakes and evolved as a human being because of it, there is still no question in my mind that my employer would never, ever, hire me again. Should I be able to go and get a job doing something else? Sure. But I would never be able to work where I had.

And that should be applied to these people. In my opinion.

That's just a financial risk assessment by your employer though. They aren't looking at it with a moral compass, only their wallets.

99.99% of employees provide very commodified and relatively replaceable labour, even in skilled professions, that makes the legal and reputational risk of rehiring not worth it. It's a very different financial equation for someone like Q who could be worth >$100 mil in franchise value to whoever hires him. The same employer that would blacklist you for life for the same offence would make an exception and take the risk on a potential >$100 mil rainmaker in a heartbeat.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

That's just a financial risk assessment by your employer though. They aren't looking at it with a moral compass, only their wallets.

99.99% of employees provide very commodified and relatively replaceable labour, even in skilled professions, that makes the legal and reputational risk of rehiring not worth it. It's a very different financial equation for someone like Q who could be worth >$100 mil in franchise value to whoever hires him. The same employer that would blacklist you for life for the same offence would make an exception and take the risk on a potential >$100 mil rainmaker in a heartbeat.

And you’re probably right - cynical though it is, you’re probably right.

But morally? I think they should f*** all the way off and not be permitted to be involved with the league anymore.

EDIT: And if more employers / companies acted with a moral compass, we’d have fewer awful situations like this. Maybe it’s the idealist in me. But the NHL - and others - should aim higher.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think in this society we tend to overglorify growth. i mean, yes i hope we all are growing as human beings and listening and learning along the way.

but maybe the bar needs to be higher than not understanding that you shouldn’t bury a sexual assault in your workplace, then have it catastrophically blow up in your face many years later and cause you public professional disgrace, before you learn and grow and show a really big amount of compassion.

call me closeminded but this feels like common sense?

 

[valkynax]

i think in this society we tend to overglorify growth. i mean, yes i hope we all are growing as human beings and listening and learning along the way.

but maybe the bar needs to be higher than not understanding that you shouldn’t bury a sexual assault in your workplace, then have it catastrophically blow up in your face many years later and cause you public professional disgrace, before you learn and grow and show a really big amount of compassion.

call me closeminded but this feels like common sense?

Yes. People make mistakes, but that does not mean a person is free from consequences. And I guess that is the keyword here: consequence. So if a team thinks hiring Q or Bowman is a good idea, the immediate consequence is that the team will receive more criticism and be more heavily scrutinized. And if things don't work out or when (not if, WHEN) those two pull some scumbag move again, the team will have to face a PR nightmare.

Of course, one can always make these decisions without any thoughts, like a f***ing child, then complained about how unfair the consequences are, like a f***ing child.

 

[Wisp]

Yeah funny thing is, in the leftist hippy province of BC, Rogers Arena was completely privately funded. Unlike the Edmonton arena in the capitalist utopia known as Alberta (granted, Edmonton isn't remotely as right leaning as the rest of the province).

Think there would be *ZERO* public support for a publically funded arena & Aquaman probably doesn't want to build the arena with his own....errr his dad's money.

As an aside, probably the main reason (among other reasons) the NBA will never return to Vancouver (eg., new arena required).

The hippy dippy rep is weird. It's been really effing competitive to live here all my life.

 

[rea]

I find that some of the city's remodeling have made things a lot worse. Like Metrotown station - used to have buses all contained in a terminal, and now the city somehow thought it's a good idea to take up an entire right lane for transit, on an already busy and narrow road. And of course, they got rid of the cross walk bridge that used to lead pedestrians conveniently from the station to the mall.

Well leave it to the GVRD to spend billions present day to fix the billion dollar blunders of yesteryear, only to repeatedly cycle that nonsense. I mean, how else does everyone involved make their millions?

All the contracted work in this city, from hi rises, to street planning, to future transit prep, is dogshit, delayed, over run costs. Such is life here, lol, we all pay the consequences with the cost of living and high taxes. But man it's a beautiful place to live lol. Hope everyone's been enjoying the hell out of this weather!

 

[rea]

This is very much worth a read.



Basically, Sheldon Kennedy signs off on Stan Bowman getting another job in the NHL.

I still don't agree. While he is a person who has gone through it and it does sell the idea of a victim who understands and is going to go to bat for them, it's also someone who has befriended, knows, has worked with Stan etc. It's still a biased angle.

Friends won't justify what a person may have done, but they will always argue the fact that said person has always been an upstanding person to them, and those around that they've seen.

I'm not trying to play cancel culture on this shit, as I think that's as bullshit a mentality, but the fact is, it was found that they had knowledge of what was going on at whatever point, and swept it under the rug. So far in doing so, that letting go of the perpetrator from the organization, they didn't make a peep when he went on to work with, and abuse again.

Alas, life isn't just, and I've accepted that. My opinion stands. This whole situation should have been a bigger topic and agenda for media and everyone alike, but it disappeared with a whimper. The world cares more about players gambling on sports than sexual misconduct it seems.

I do appreciate you finding that though Vector. It for me, really just shows how varied and swayed society can be when it suits

 

[valkynax]

Well leave it to the GVRD to spend billions present day to fix the billion dollar blunders of yesteryear, only to repeatedly cycle that nonsense. I mean, how else does everyone involved make their millions?

All the contracted work in this city, from hi rises, to street planning, to future transit prep, is dogshit, delayed, over run costs. Such is life here, lol, we all pay the consequences with the cost of living and high taxes. But man it's a beautiful place to live lol. Hope everyone's been enjoying the hell out of this weather!

Yeah, civil projects here move like glacial migration. Like the burst pipes near Olympic Village - almost a month now and it's still not resolved. And this extends to other parts of Canada too. The tolerance for incompetence here is just unbelievable.

Old Metrotown station separated pedestrian, buses, and traffic quite nicely, and the cross walk bridge was a life saver. Now? Everything is mixed up together like a stew - increased pedestrian movement on the ground, with buses taking up the right lane just parking there doing nothing, and a complete nightmare to drive through.

 

[Sexy Necksy Garland]

Yeah, civil projects here move like glacial migration. Like the burst pipes near Olympic Village - almost a month now and it's still not resolved. And this extends to other parts of Canada too. The tolerance for incompetence here is just unbelievable.

Old Metrotown station separated pedestrian, buses, and traffic quite nicely, and the cross walk bridge was a life saver. Now? Everything is mixed up together like a stew - increased pedestrian movement on the ground, with buses taking up the right lane just parking there doing nothing, and a complete nightmare to drive through.

90s mallrat here. You speak truth.

 

[F A N]

I still don't agree. While he is a person who has gone through it and it does sell the idea of a victim who understands and is going to go to bat for them, it's also someone who has befriended, knows, has worked with Stan etc. It's still a biased angle.

Friends won't justify what a person may have done, but they will always argue the fact that said person has always been an upstanding person to them, and those around that they've seen.

I'm not trying to play cancel culture on this shit, as I think that's as bullshit a mentality, but the fact is, it was found that they had knowledge of what was going on at whatever point, and swept it under the rug. So far in doing so, that letting go of the perpetrator from the organization, they didn't make a peep when he went on to work with, and abuse again.

Alas, life isn't just, and I've accepted that. My opinion stands. This whole situation should have been a bigger topic and agenda for media and everyone alike, but it disappeared with a whimper. The world cares more about players gambling on sports than sexual misconduct it seems.

I do appreciate you finding that though Vector. It for me, really just shows how varied and swayed society can be when it suits

Well said. And my issue is where is Beach in all of this? Has Bowman personally apologized to Beach? Learning what to do differently could just be learning how to "cover your ass." That could include: I have everyone watch a [insert] harassment video, I told HR about the incident and told them to do their investigations, I gave instructions/made sure the [insert perpetrator] isn't around the [insert victim], I told my boss about the incident and the steps I took, I never gave [insert perpetrator] my reference etc.

 

[tantalum]

Well said. And my issue is where is Beach in all of this? Has Bowman personally apologized to Beach? Learning what to do differently could just be learning how to "cover your ass." That could include: I have everyone watch a [insert] harassment video, I told HR about the incident and told them to do their investigations, I gave instructions/made sure the [insert perpetrator] isn't around the [insert victim], I told my boss about the incident and the steps I took, I never gave [insert perpetrator] my reference etc.

Based on the letter it very much sounds like he has talked to and tried to make amends with Beach ("I heard from both men afterwards that they appreciated the opportunity to meet again, discuss their personal realities, and to clear the air given that time had passed.")

For Bowman I don't believe this is just a cover your ass thing. Bowman didn't just take a course or two but actively worked at learning and understanding the things he didn't do and should have. Helped develop a charter/program to help address this issue and talked about his failings as part of that. MOST people don't actually know how to deal with situations like this when it actually happens. It's of course not even remotely the same but everyone takes training on what to do if there is a fire, how to use an extinguisher etc. MOST of those people will freeze when an actual situation occurs. Humans are terrible at making correct and rational decisions in times of stress.

The most interesting thing to me in the letter is the following paragraph:

"I was contacted by Al MacIsaac, Joel Quenneville, and Stan Bowman, who were all suspended indefinitely by the NHL for their association with the incident. Each of them wanted to learn more about the issues of sexual abuse and the critical role of bystanders in confronting and addressing maltreatment effectively. I spoke at length with all three men and they each chose their own journey to educate themselves and improve in this area. "

With the context of the rest of the statement the bolded part reads to me like MacIsaac and Quenneville did the "cover your ass" thing and did not seriously work on things. I think there is a distinction being made between Bowman and the others in this respect, albeit in a subtle and respectful way.

So my opinion is I'm OK with Bowman being reinstated given the evidence of his commitment to learning and acknowledging the wrong of his actions. I'm not seeing the same from the other 2.

 

[RobertKron]

Yeah funny thing is, in the leftist hippy province of BC, Rogers Arena was completely privately funded. Unlike the Edmonton arena in the capitalist utopia known as Alberta (granted, Edmonton isn't remotely as right leaning as the rest of the province).

Think there would be *ZERO* public support for a publically funded arena & Aquaman probably doesn't want to build the arena with his own....errr his dad's money.

As an aside, probably the main reason (among other reasons) the NBA will never return to Vancouver (eg., new arena required).

Not to get political, but I don’t see it as weird or surprising at all that a conservative government/population/region/whatever would support giving public money to wealthy private company, while a “leftier” one would find that distasteful. IME, that tracks like 100%.

 

[Szechwan]

Seravalli's heel turn has been something else. My god. I actually liked the guy a year ago and now he's the most despicable trashbag reporter in the NHL.

Careful, if you call him out for his objectively bad opinions the next logical step for him is to claim he's being canceled by the coastal elite

 

[Nick Lang]

Based on the letter it very much sounds like he has talked to and tried to make amends with Beach ("I heard from both men afterwards that they appreciated the opportunity to meet again, discuss their personal realities, and to clear the air given that time had passed.")

For Bowman I don't believe this is just a cover your ass thing. Bowman didn't just take a course or two but actively worked at learning and understanding the things he didn't do and should have. Helped develop a charter/program to help address this issue and talked about his failings as part of that. MOST people don't actually know how to deal with situations like this when it actually happens. It's of course not even remotely the same but everyone takes training on what to do if there is a fire, how to use an extinguisher etc. MOST of those people will freeze when an actual situation occurs. Humans are terrible at making correct and rational decisions in times of stress.

The most interesting thing to me in the letter is the following paragraph:

"I was contacted by Al MacIsaac, Joel Quenneville, and Stan Bowman, who were all suspended indefinitely by the NHL for their association with the incident. Each of them wanted to learn more about the issues of sexual abuse and the critical role of bystanders in confronting and addressing maltreatment effectively. I spoke at length with all three men and they each chose their own journey to educate themselves and improve in this area. "

With the context of the rest of the statement the bolded part reads to me like MacIsaac and Quenneville did the "cover your ass" thing and did not seriously work on things. I think there is a distinction being made between Bowman and the others in this respect, albeit in a subtle and respectful way.

So my opinion is I'm OK with Bowman being reinstated given the evidence of his commitment to learning and acknowledging the wrong of his actions. I'm not seeing the same from the other 2.

Yeah. I would agree. I don't even like to comment on stuff like this because it's just a horrible situation and I don't know at all what happened, or what the actions taken and not taken even were. I don't know if any of us bystanders know exactly what transpired. It does feel like some people are letting their hate for the Hawks hockey wise influence their outrage. At the end of the day these guys weren't the perpetrators, but they were guilty of not being better, protecting their players, and simply being more Samaritan. I don't know if they deserve to be "cancelled" though. I believe everyone's lives are filled with mistakes, some of them huge, and it's how we deal with that which defines us. It certainly looks like Stan Bowman has taken this very seriously and genuinely tried to do what he could to address his shortcomings.

At the end of it all Kyle Beach is the important one, not these 3, or the organization. Hopefully the result from this all is that this never happens again. It certainly has brought it to the forefront.

 

[StreetHawk]

Not to get political, but I don’t see it as weird or surprising at all that a conservative government/population/region/whatever would support giving public money to wealthy private company, while a “leftier” one would find that distasteful. IME, that tracks like 100%.

Also a market thing. NY/CA, are large markets, so there is a benefit for the owner to have a team there based on the valuations compared to other markets. thus those markets you don't see gov involvement.

I mean, where is Aqua moving the team to increase its valuation given arena situations. Fertitia owns the Houston Market for example. Portland, for the NHL isn't more valuable than Van as an example and even then the Blazers have control over Moda. So, very hard to move an NHL team into a market with an NBA team.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1814392373436399702

No clue how he gets that high of an AAV not that it's a big deal but still you literally paid to move off money.

 

[Vector]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1814392373436399702

No clue how he gets that high of an AAV not that it's a big deal but still you literally paid to move off money now you overpay.

*whisper*

Because Yzerman isn't actually that good at his job.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

*whisper*

Because Yzerman isn't actually that good at his job.

Shout it out loud I don't think he has many defenders anymore. Most Wings fans on here can't stand him.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1814392373436399702

No clue how he gets that high of an AAV not that it's a big deal but still you literally paid to move off money.

Yzerfraud

 

[vancityluongo]

Yeah funny thing is, in the leftist hippy province of BC, Rogers Arena was completely privately funded. Unlike the Edmonton arena in the capitalist utopia known as Alberta (granted, Edmonton isn't remotely as right leaning as the rest of the province).

Think there would be *ZERO* public support for a publically funded arena & Aquaman probably doesn't want to build the arena with his own....errr his dad's money.

As an aside, probably the main reason (among other reasons) the NBA will never return to Vancouver (eg., new arena required).

i took a course in university with one of the guys behind the edmonton arena deal - could talk about it all day, but essentially, the creation of the ice district was one of the only scenarios where having public funding actually projected to make sense, because it created a centralized, transit accessible hub in an area of downtown that was otherwise crumbling. it gets brought up as a point in all arena talks, but this was one of a couple in north america (i believe staples center in LA was another, iirc), where it was actually justifiable to argue the increase in the tax base as a reason for public funds, based on location of the arena.

and hey, it paid off: Oilers Stanley Cup playoff run nets $280M for Edmonton: OEG, Explore Edmonton
(ie. my ideal scenario when the canucks got eliminated - maximum oiler fan disappointment, massive economic gain for edmonton )

if anyone is curious, here's the oilers arena deal: The Agreement | City of Edmonton

it also took years for the public opinion to turn here to get it done, and it probably wouldn't have happened without the very realistic threat of the oilers being relocated to houston without a world-class venue.

neither of those points in favour of public funding would really hold true in vancouver. the current arena is already central, the nhl is never moving out of a market that size, and other options where land is available (surrey) would be overall worse for the region.

Not to get political, but I don’t see it as weird or surprising at all that a conservative government/population/region/whatever would support giving public money to wealthy private company, while a “leftier” one would find that distasteful. IME, that tracks like 100%.

100%. look no further than calgary, where the arena may have been the final nail in the coffin for the current government to win enough seats (despite edmonton's best efforts)