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Around the League Thread part V

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Herby said:
Kaliyev is never going to be a plus defensive player , even in his current role he cheats a decent amount, but that is ok, the Kings didn't draft him to be that player. He really isn't in a 4th line role right now anyways, due to the rotating black hole that the Kings "3rd line" has been all year the Lemieux-Lizotte-AK line has been more like a 3rd line.

I wish that the Kings had given him more NHL games last year, and I wish they'd see if Lemieux-Lizotte-Brown could be a functioning 4th line to try and get the 1st and "3rd" lines going more offensively but my guess is TM still feels he is going to get more offense from Iafallo and Kempe than AK.

Atleast the Kings have an apparent plan for AK, they expect him to be a scoring line winger next season. It seems like they don't really have a plan for any of the other young players as most of them are blocked by veterans.
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I am firmly on the side that thinks you can learn how to be responsible over time, and that no team needs offensively oriented kids to be defensively sound before they learn how to apply their best skills.

Learning how to score with grinders and how to score with gifted players are two totally different things. Different spacing, different timing, different shift lengths. Kaliyev is going to have to spend ANOTHER year in hockey grade school next year IF they decide to put him in the top 6. Its a whole year wasted that could have already been accomplished. And he clearly has the aptitude, I would argue that what he has done this year is harder than of they kept him top 6 from the start. Now he has to unlearn those habits.
 
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Ive never seen a player improve more over half a season than kaliyev. He had a lot of deficiencies at the start of the year, he couldnt win a board battle, hed go into scrums right as the puck came out and generally if the puck went to him and he didnt have clean possession it would be a turn over. Peoplw forget that he did get put on kopitars line and he lasted a period because every timw he touched the puck hed turn it over.

His growth next to lizotte and pepe has been remarkable, theyre ideal line mates for him that were able to recover any of Kaliyevs turn overs and hes out there against weaker competition while he figures it all out. And figure it out he has, for him to use his tools you need possession and hes figured out how to maintain it and is now part of one of the best 4th lines in the league.
 
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bland said:
I am firmly on the side that thinks you can learn how to be responsible over time, and that no team needs offensively oriented kids to be defensively sound before they learn how to apply their best skills.

Learning how to score with grinders and how to score with gifted players are two totally different things. Different spacing, different timing, different shift lengths. Kaliyev is going to have to spend ANOTHER year in hockey grade school next year IF they decide to put him in the top 6. Its a whole year wasted that could have already been accomplished. And he clearly has the aptitude, I would argue that what he has done this year is harder than of they kept him top 6 from the start. Now he has to unlearn those habits.
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The more I watch prospects grow and develop - I am a firm believer that the worst thing you can do for a prospect is put them in a role you don't envision them playing, especially as a rookie.

Because the adjustment to the NHL is enough. Why does the player also have to learn a new way to play and role?

Bottom six players in the AHL should be put in bottom-six roles in the NHL. Middle-six to middle-six. Top to top.

Why spend a season in the NHL learning to be a bottom-six, then spend another season learning in the top six? Just keep him in the AHL as a top-six, then he'll have that much more experience as a top six player next season. He needs to adjust to the speed, sure, but the core skills you envision him using are intact.
 
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King'sPawn said:
The more I watch prospects grow and develop - I am a firm believer that the worst thing you can do for a prospect is put them in a role you don't envision them playing, especially as a rookie.

Because the adjustment to the NHL is enough. Why does the player also have to learn a new way to play and role?

Bottom six players in the AHL should be put in bottom-six roles in the NHL. Middle-six to middle-six. Top to top.

Why spend a season in the NHL learning to be a bottom-six, then spend another season learning in the top six? Just keep him in the AHL as a top-six, then he'll have that much more experience as a top six player next season. He needs to adjust to the speed, sure, but the core skills you envision him using are intact.
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I get the premise of this, but a lot of bottom 6ers in the AHL aren't even NHL level players. There are also a ton of top 6'ers who aren't good enough for top-line NHL duty, yet turn into fantastic 3rd liners. Limiting which players play on which lines based on where they play in the AHL is a surefire way to miss out on maximizing an asset and would certainly result in failure. The large majority of players who make an impact in the NHL has been a top-liner at all levels during their entire lives.

Are there any recent examples of teams who have actually won a cup with this strategy? It sure seems like teams that have really good bottom-sixers and well-rounded players are the ones that win cups That strategy seems like something Edmonton would do.
 
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Sparky206 said:
Ive never seen a player improve more over half a season than kaliyev. He had a lot of deficiencies at the start of the year, he couldnt win a board battle, hed go into scrums right as the puck came out and generally if the puck went to him and he didnt have clean possession it would be a turn over. Peoplw forget that he did get put on kopitars line and he lasted a period because every timw he touched the puck hed turn it over.

His growth next to lizotte and pepe has been remarkable, theyre ideal line mates for him that were able to recover any of Kaliyevs turn overs and hes out there against weaker competition while he figures it all out. And figure it out he has, for him to use his tools you need possession and hes figured out how to maintain it and is now part of one of the best 4th lines in the league.
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Agree with this. One thing I think though is Lizotte is playing near or at his ceiling. I think Kaliyev has a lot more in him.
 
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Sparky206 said:
Ive never seen a player improve more over half a season than kaliyev. He had a lot of deficiencies at the start of the year, he couldnt win a board battle, hed go into scrums right as the puck came out and generally if the puck went to him and he didnt have clean possession it would be a turn over. Peoplw forget that he did get put on kopitars line and he lasted a period because every timw he touched the puck hed turn it over.

His growth next to lizotte and pepe has been remarkable, theyre ideal line mates for him that were able to recover any of Kaliyevs turn overs and hes out there against weaker competition while he figures it all out. And figure it out he has, for him to use his tools you need possession and hes figured out how to maintain it and is now part of one of the best 4th lines in the league.
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To what benefit?
 
Fishhead said:
I get the premise of this, but a lot of bottom 6ers in the AHL aren't even NHL level players. There are also a ton of top 6'ers who aren't good enough for top-line NHL duty, yet turn into fantastic 3rd liners. Limiting which players play on which lines based on where they play in the AHL is a surefire way to miss out on maximizing an asset and would certainly result in failure. The large majority of players who make an impact in the NHL has been a top-liner at all levels during their entire lives.

Are there any recent examples of teams who have actually won a cup with this strategy? It sure seems like teams that have really good bottom-sixers and well-rounded players are the ones that win cups That strategy seems like something Edmonton would do.
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I admit I don't have good examples outside of LA. I focus on prospects, more so with LA, so I don't have any good ones recent.

Although it seemed to work well with Dwight King and Jordan Nolan in 2012.

The Kings do it with their defensemen. They don't force all their defensive rookies to spend a season as a No. 6/7 defenseman.
 
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Herby said:
The 2015 draft has ended up being an amazing draft. That was a good time for the Kings to have a down season and end up with the #13 and #43 picks in such a great draft.

We must have ended up with two important parts of our team for the next dozen years, right?
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One of the most colossal f-up by DL in his tenure. This draft hurt the team in so many ways! We got Lucic and kept Gravel with the #13 and #43 picks . Pick number 134, Matt Schmaltz, pick 135 Kiril Kaprizov. But all was not lost, we still got Wagner and Roy. :laugh:
 
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YP44 said:
Agree with this. One thing I think though is Lizotte is playing near or at his ceiling. I think Kaliyev has a lot more in him.
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Kaliyev hasn't even began to reach his potential. He'll be top 6 next season and going forward. Playing on the 4th line is not a problem at all. He's a rookie, learning the NHL game and doing well where he's at. There's no hurry.
 
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King'sPawn said:
I admit I don't have good examples outside of LA. I focus on prospects, more so with LA, so I don't have any good ones recent.

Although it seemed to work well with Dwight King and Jordan Nolan in 2012.

The Kings do it with their defensemen. They don't force all their defensive rookies to spend a season as a No. 6/7 defenseman.
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Yeah, we kill it with defensemen, but there are only 6 of them so that's a little easier. I guess what I don't want to see is an Edmonton situation. They pretty much tossed everyone on their top lines and even with all those incredible draft picks they are mediocre at best. Tons of talent of course, but guys like RNH, Yakupov, Hall, etc. never had to play a lick of defense and never developed their all-around game. Had they done that, when McDavid and Draisaitl came in they would have been a monster team. We are benefitting from that so I'm not complaining.

The answer is in the middle somewhere I'm sure, the $1,000,000 question is who do you just tack on the top lines and who do you have learn the ropes on the lower lines? Personally, I would have put Byfield up with better players to help him with his defensive deficiencies. As poor as he's been I don't mind Brown that much with him, but AA is a terrible choice. When Turcotte comes up, I'd rather see him in a slot like Moore is in. He doesn't need that all-around development and time on the 4th line would be wasted on him.
 
Fishhead said:
Yeah, we kill it with defensemen, but there are only 6 of them so that's a little easier. I guess what I don't want to see is an Edmonton situation. They pretty much tossed everyone on their top lines and even with all those incredible draft picks they are mediocre at best. Tons of talent of course, but guys like RNH, Yakupov, Hall, etc. never had to play a lick of defense and never developed their all-around game. Had they done that, when McDavid and Draisaitl came in they would have been a monster team. We are benefitting from that so I'm not complaining.

The answer is in the middle somewhere I'm sure, the $1,000,000 question is who do you just tack on the top lines and who do you have learn the ropes on the lower lines? Personally, I would have put Byfield up with better players to help him with his defensive deficiencies. As poor as he's been I don't mind Brown that much with him, but AA is a terrible choice. When Turcotte comes up, I'd rather see him in a slot like Moore is in. He doesn't need that all-around development and time on the 4th line would be wasted on him.
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I think either you're misunderstanding or I'm miscommunicating my overall plan. I don't want to throw all players in the top-six and set them up to fail. I'm not a fan of the Edmonton model of just throwing top prospects on the ice and depending on them to carry the team. The Edmonton model ignores depth. I think the Kings should do the opposite - leverage their depth.

If they are NHL ready, though, they should play in the role they are expected to play. Even if it is in reduced minutes, they should still be put in a position to score. The skilled prospects get buoyed by the skilled veterans.
 
Sparky206 said:
He can now play at an NHL level with and without the puck? He would have got his line caved in on a top 6 role at the start of the season and now he wouldnt?
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You don't think the same adjustments would have been made with experience, but at the top of the food chain in a role more suited to his talents?
 
Fishhead said:
Yeah, we kill it with defensemen, but there are only 6 of them so that's a little easier. I guess what I don't want to see is an Edmonton situation. They pretty much tossed everyone on their top lines and even with all those incredible draft picks they are mediocre at best. Tons of talent of course, but guys like RNH, Yakupov, Hall, etc. never had to play a lick of defense and never developed their all-around game. Had they done that, when McDavid and Draisaitl came in they would have been a monster team. We are benefitting from that so I'm not complaining.

The answer is in the middle somewhere I'm sure, the $1,000,000 question is who do you just tack on the top lines and who do you have learn the ropes on the lower lines? Personally, I would have put Byfield up with better players to help him with his defensive deficiencies. As poor as he's been I don't mind Brown that much with him, but AA is a terrible choice. When Turcotte comes up, I'd rather see him in a slot like Moore is in. He doesn't need that all-around development and time on the 4th line would be wasted on him.
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Edmonton and similarly Buffalo and Ottawa are global backwaters. Ownership is a local fiefdom. None compare to LA with respect to the local sports market. AEG has proven they will do what it takes to succeed locally. You can’t worry about an insular environment poisoning the locker room.
 
DoktorJeep said:
Edmonton and similarly Buffalo and Ottawa are global backwaters. Ownership is a local fiefdom. None compare to LA with respect to the local sports market. AEG has proven they will do what it takes to succeed locally. You can’t worry about an insular environment poisoning the locker room.
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Thats a 10 dollar word. I had to look it up.
 
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bland said:
I am firmly on the side that thinks you can learn how to be responsible over time, and that no team needs offensively oriented kids to be defensively sound before they learn how to apply their best skills.

Learning how to score with grinders and how to score with gifted players are two totally different things. Different spacing, different timing, different shift lengths. Kaliyev is going to have to spend ANOTHER year in hockey grade school next year IF they decide to put him in the top 6. Its a whole year wasted that could have already been accomplished. And he clearly has the aptitude, I would argue that what he has done this year is harder than of they kept him top 6 from the start. Now he has to unlearn those habits.
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They weren't planning on Kaliyev being on the team. Bring in Arvidsson, re-sign AA, have whatever holdovers there were, plus Vilardi and Andersson were supposed to be in the forward mix, and Kaliyev wasn't in the NHL plans this year anyway.
 
bland said:
You don't think the same adjustments would have been made with experience, but at the top of the food chain in a role more suited to his talents?
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No.

I'm not saying NHL execs know it all but there's a reason more often than not teams brings players in through limited minutes and expand from there. Kaliyev is already much better overall than where he was at the start of the season and all that development came from playing sheltered minutes. Blake's already said it's expected he'll be in the top six next year. So the expectation is to have a 21-year-old starting in our top six and likely be a 20+ goalscorer. That's a very positive developmental curve and there's no guarantee it'd go as well if he was just thrown in as a top six to start.
 
interesting
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I cant imagine being a player on the Yotes and wanting to stay at this point. Unless you’re a plug that can’t get a job elsewhere, in which case you have guaranteed employment for at least like three years.
 
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