Around the League, Summer 2016--NHL Draft Shenanigans Edition

[Fishhead]

I was just randomly thinking. What would it have taken to get PK here? Since the trade came out of left field, us fans didn't even get a chance to fantasize about it. If Montréal was letting everybody know that they were shopping him, would Deano have offered?

For sure Muzzin+ would have been the ask. I think the most DL would have offered would have been Muzzin and Pearson, which wouldn't have gotten it done. Funny though, I'd rather have Muzzin and Pearson over Weber at this point in his career.

 

[Keith Sweaty]

Free advice to DL: Never pick a goalie in the 1st round.

Yet another burned pick.

Disagree

 

[Keith Sweaty]

Can't compare the Hickey pick to Bernier...

 

[kingsfan28]

I was just randomly thinking. What would it have taken to get PK here? Since the trade came out of left field, us fans didn't even get a chance to fantasize about it. If Montréal was letting everybody know that they were shopping him, would Deano have offered?

Probably Muzzin , plus. While Subban is another great offensive defenseman,I'd rather have Muzzin's lower cap hit and ability to play consistent defense.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I disagree i honestly would have been fine with bernier being our top goalie not a stretch as you call it. I give you credit for at least saying how you see it instead of hiding in the weeds and just hating on him like others. you get respect points for that ( i know it don't mean much but hey i can always respect a differing opinion.) I honestly see him taking the one job and showing like jones did last year. Calling him a bust is just a reach to me I honestly don't care he where he was draft to call him a bust after playing on a awful team like the leafs is unfair imo

FWIW Jones posted the kind of regular season last year that gets Quick eviscerated as "lol overrated" and was actually borderline bad in the playoffs until the finals.

 

[deeshamrock]

FWIW Jones posted the kind of regular season last year that gets Quick eviscerated as "lol overrated" and was actually borderline bad in the playoffs until the finals.

Quick has played over 475 RS games, Jones 99. Really? You think that's a fair comparison?

Jones is a very technically sound, talented goalie who doesn't panic and tends the paint well. And what honest, intelligent fan would 'eviscerate' Quick if he'd had finished 3rd in wins in the NHL with the stats Jones put up in his first full NHL season and led his team to the SCF?
I don't get why so many Kings fans feel the need to rip Jones. And he was never borderline bad in the playoffs this year. He's a very talented young goalie who will get better with more minutes, both RG and playoffs. He proved this year he's capable of leading a team there and playing well under pressure. That will get better as he gets more experience.

 

[Butch 19]

Can't compare the Hickey pick to Bernier...

Both are failed first round picks.

Throw Jamie Storr into the mix and do you see why I think drafting a goalie in the first round is stupid?

Unless if there is some consensus in the hockey world that a goalie is very likely to be drafted at #1 - 3 (MAF, Price, etc.), don't bother.

How many first round picks can DL miss? (and no, DD really doesn't count)

 

[Kingsfan1]

Both are failed first round picks.

Throw Jamie Storr into the mix and do you see why I think drafting a goalie in the first round is stupid?

Unless if there is some consensus in the hockey world that a goalie is very likely to be drafted at #1 - 3 (MAF, Price, etc.), don't bother.

How many first round picks can DL miss? (and no, DD really doesn't count)

He misses because he picks who he thinks fit into our system and what are our needs instead of BPA. But seems like that is changing with the picks he made this year. So let's wait and see. The game is evolving and Emerson mentioned it as well and that they need to adapt, so I'm liking what I'm hearing.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Quick has played over 475 RS games, Jones 99. Really? You think that's a fair comparison?

Jones is a very technically sound, talented goalie who doesn't panic and tends the paint well. And what honest, intelligent fan would 'eviscerate' Quick if he'd had finished 3rd in wins in the NHL with the stats Jones put up in his first full NHL season and led his team to the SCF?
I don't get why so many Kings fans feel the need to rip Jones. And he was never borderline bad in the playoffs this year. He's a very talented young goalie who will get better with more minutes, both RG and playoffs. He proved this year he's capable of leading a team there and playing well under pressure. That will get better as he gets more experience.

It's a fair comparison when people want to pretend that Jones had a stellar season and is > Quick, yes.

I think he's only going to get better but Jones reminds me of when Quick got here...we only needed a guy to not **** the bed, just like SJ with Niemi. Like, you don't have to steal us games, but don't COST us games. Well, great, this guy comes in and is literally average, but is proclaimed a savior. Again, not bad, and going to get better, but he didn't have a season that would make me question taking a different goalie.

And no, he was literally last in save percentage in the playoffs until he had a stellar finals. So yes, it's fair to critique his performance there.

I don't agree that he learned to 'lead' a team, he was full of uneven performances and looked mentally fragile at times. That's ABSOLUTELY going to get better in my eyes, but he even showed that here, and that's something young goalies have to iron out. So long story short, no, of course it's not a fair comparison to Quick--but I find people vastly overrating Jones' season and playoff performance on recency bias because while he came in and provided SJ solid goaltending that they needed, it WAS solid and nothing more (until the finals, of course).

I'm not trying to rip Jones, I like Jones, but the shiny new toy syndrome is over the top.

 

[DOSKI]

But, but, the other teams have shinier and newer toys. They all have the best toys. And we need a betterer toy chooser. Our chooser always gets the worst toys. It's statisticaler proved by the best anal-yitics.

 

[YP44]

Free advice to DL: Never pick a goalie in the 1st round.

Yet another burned pick.

What? I agree that I do not want LA picking a goalie in the first round, but bernier was not a burned pick.

If Quick did not come out of now where he was being groomed for LA's starting Job, and drafting him at the time I thought was a key piece in the rebuild. He was developing very well in LA, and had a very good first year as a starter in the toughest market in the NHL, behind a terrible team.

This last year his stock has plummeted. I was very hopeful he would regain his form, but now that he is a Duck I cannot cheer for him.

I own his Manchester jersey and still wore it proudly...not anymore..sucks

 

[Brodeur]

Throw Jamie Storr into the mix and do you see why I think drafting a goalie in the first round is stupid?

I suppose I understand the mentality that it's better to spend later picks on goalies. But I always wonder which players you bypassed by taking the goalie. The natural inclination is to cherry pick one guy (Bryan Little), but in a lot of cases it's not that star studded.

If it's any consolation, Storr wasn't the only non-goalie who didn't pan out.

7. Jamie Storr
8. Jason Wiemer
9. Brett Lindros
10. Nolan Baumgartner
11. Jeff Friesen
12. Wade Belak
13. Mattias Ohlund
14. Ethan Moreau

McMaster made provisions. If he couldn't have Storr, he would take Brett Lindros, little brother of Eric.

"If Jamie was gone, I'd probably have gone for Lindros," McMaster says, chuckling. "But only to trade. I don't even know if he would have come up to the podium. I could have been standing there with Lindros' name on a sweater and a stupid look on my face.

I suppose you can be disappointed in Storr, but also realize that the alternative wouldn't have been much better.

 

[YP44]

If it's any consolation, Storr wasn't the only non-goalie who didn't pan out.

7. Jamie Storr
8. Jason Wiemer
9. Brett Lindros
10. Nolan Baumgartner
11. Jeff Friesen
12. Wade Belak
13. Mattias Ohlund
14. Ethan Moreau





I suppose you can be disappointed in Storr, but also realize that the alternative wouldn't have been much better.

Ohlund had some good to great years, Moreau had a nice career too. Also Friesen has a cup with the canes does he not?

 

[BigKing]

I disagree i honestly would have been fine with bernier being our top goalie not a stretch as you call it. I give you credit for at least saying how you see it instead of hiding in the weeds and just hating on him like others. you get respect points for that ( i know it don't mean much but hey i can always respect a differing opinion.) I honestly see him taking the one job and showing like jones did last year. Calling him a bust is just a reach to me I honestly don't care he where he was draft to call him a bust after playing on a awful team like the leafs is unfair imo

Thanks and agree to disagree. All I have is results to base my bust-or-not decision on and it is ten years since his draft and he has still not proven out to be worth his draft position.

Could he justify that draft spot moving forward? Possibly, but the odds are stacked against him at this point. Also, why would we want him to be good now that he is a Duck?

 

[Brodeur]

Ohlund had some good to great years, Moreau had a nice career too. Also Friesen has a cup with the canes does he not?

That goes back to my point that we naturally are going to cherry pick the names that panned out, not necessarily who the team was considering at the time. The Kings weren't going to take Friesen/Ohlund/Moreau. If it wasn't Storr, the Kings would have walked out with the Brett Lindros experience.

I understand that there's value to be had in drafting goalies later. But I always get a little put off when folks bring up past 1st round failed goalies with the implication that there was a treasure trove of talent that was passed up. With the further implication that the team would have taken the one useful player while ignoring the other non-goalie busts taken in the same range.

Imagine where Montreal would have been if they had drafted Gilbert Brule instead of Carey Price like everybody (including myself) thought.

Everybody (aside from San Jose/Minnesota) has 'wasted' a first round pick on a goalie at some point. But I'm pretty sure picks have been equally wasted on forwards/D, but everybody gets nervous about taking a goalie since there's only 2 spots to be had. Meanwhile a journeyman first round forward can bounce around the league and it's not quite as scrutinized.

 

[BigKing]

That goes back to my point that we naturally are going to cherry pick the names that panned out, not necessarily who the team was considering at the time. The Kings weren't going to take Friesen/Ohlund/Moreau. If it wasn't Storr, the Kings would have walked out with the Brett Lindros experience.

I understand that there's value to be had in drafting goalies later. But I always get a little put off when folks bring up past 1st round failed goalies with the implication that there was a treasure trove of talent that was passed up. With the further implication that the team would have taken the one useful player while ignoring the other non-goalie busts taken in the same range.

Imagine where Montreal would have been if they had drafted Gilbert Brule instead of Carey Price like everybody (including myself) thought.

Everybody (aside from San Jose/Minnesota) has 'wasted' a first round pick on a goalie at some point. But I'm pretty sure picks have been equally wasted on forwards/D, but everybody gets nervous about taking a goalie since there's only 2 spots to be had. Meanwhile a journeyman first round forward can bounce around the league and it's not quite as scrutinized.

Kicker is a very important position in the NFL but if you take one higher than the 4th round, you get ridiculed yet these guys can win or lose you a game, including the Super Bowl.

Goalie is kind of like that. You don't get ridiculed per se for taking one in the first round, but they've got to be touted as "generational" to go in the Top 10 or you will get second-guessed to death if the pick isn't a home run.

 

[kingsholygrail]

I was just randomly thinking. What would it have taken to get PK here? Since the trade came out of left field, us fans didn't even get a chance to fantasize about it. If Montréal was letting everybody know that they were shopping him, would Deano have offered?

They would have wanted Doughty.

 

[YP44]

That goes back to my point that we naturally are going to cherry pick the names that panned out, not necessarily who the team was considering at the time. The Kings weren't going to take Friesen/Ohlund/Moreau. If it wasn't Storr, the Kings would have walked out with the Brett Lindros experience.

I understand that there's value to be had in drafting goalies later. But I always get a little put off when folks bring up past 1st round failed goalies with the implication that there was a treasure trove of talent that was passed up. With the further implication that the team would have taken the one useful player while ignoring the other non-goalie busts taken in the same range.

Imagine where Montreal would have been if they had drafted Gilbert Brule instead of Carey Price like everybody (including myself) thought.

Everybody (aside from San Jose/Minnesota) has 'wasted' a first round pick on a goalie at some point. But I'm pretty sure picks have been equally wasted on forwards/D, but everybody gets nervous about taking a goalie since there's only 2 spots to be had. Meanwhile a journeyman first round forward can bounce around the league and it's not quite as scrutinized.

it's funny when people bring up goaleis in the first round I always think of two names (What is funny is that one of those two name is your name) Brodeur and Kidd.

Calgary took Kidd over Brodeaur and at the time it was not a reach at all. Most had him ahead or at least an either or situation.

Goalies in the first round are risky. I was pumped with bernier though at the time as I thought he was a sure hit guy.

Only thing I was pointing out in my post is some of the guys in that draft year had good years, where as the post I was responding to made it sound like there were no players there that panned out.

 

[YP44]

They would have wanted Doughty.

Obviously would never have happened but what would that deal need to be from a kings perspective to make it palatable?

brown + Doughty

for

Subban + Pacioretty +

Neither team would do it, but at least from LA's POV it could be argued to do it to unload Brown.

 

[Brodeur]

Kicker is a very important position in the NFL but if you take one higher than the 4th round, you get ridiculed yet these guys can win or lose you a game, including the Super Bowl.

Goalie is kind of like that. You don't get ridiculed per se for taking one in the first round, but they've got to be touted as "generational" to go in the Top 10 or you will get second-guessed to death if the pick isn't a home run.

Kickers are a little more replaceable though. I don't think you'd see a kicker be one of the top paid guys on a team, but it's not unusual to see a goalie be a top 5 salary maker on a lot of clubs.

I understand why many are skittish about taking goalies with high picks. A lot of 17/18 year olds aren't even starting for their clubs, so it's hard to get a read on certain guys. Steve Mason only played in a handful of games during his draft year. Scott Wedgewood was in a similar boat and a lot of teams had to base things on one playoff game of his (similar to Matt Cassel only throwing a handful of passes at USC).

And even then, it's tough at times to differentiate goalies since they all play similar styles (I think Marty Brodeur mentioned something similar last year while he was doing some scouting for the Blues.)

Plus with UFA at 27, a lot of goalies just need years to develop. Only last year did Jake Allen start challenging for a starting gig and he was drafted in 2008. Understandably, some GMs are thinking a little more short term and want a little more instant gratification with a top pick.

It's just a personal pet peeve when folks bring up past bust/disappointing goalies without bringing the whole draft into context. The Rangers using the 6th pick in 2004 on Al Montoya doesn't look great. But the next five guys after him were Rusty Olesz, Alex Picard, Boris Valabik, Ladislav Smid, and Lauri Tukonen.

The TSN stats guy did a graph on games played as further reason to not take goalies. But I think by his logic, Smid (583 games) is more valuable than Dubnyk (298 games).

 

[kingsholygrail]

Why do people bring up Storr anyway? Didn't he get ****ed up by the Blues?

 

[kingsfan28]

Kickers are a little more replaceable though. I don't think you'd see a kicker be one of the top paid guys on a team, but it's not unusual to see a goalie be a top 5 salary maker on a lot of clubs.

I understand why many are skittish about taking goalies with high picks. A lot of 17/18 year olds aren't even starting for their clubs, so it's hard to get a read on certain guys. Steve Mason only played in a handful of games during his draft year. Scott Wedgewood was in a similar boat and a lot of teams had to base things on one playoff game of his (similar to Matt Cassel only throwing a handful of passes at USC).

And even then, it's tough at times to differentiate goalies since they all play similar styles (I think Marty Brodeur mentioned something similar last year while he was doing some scouting for the Blues.)

Plus with UFA at 27, a lot of goalies just need years to develop. Only last year did Jake Allen start challenging for a starting gig and he was drafted in 2008. Understandably, some GMs are thinking a little more short term and want a little more instant gratification with a top pick.

It's just a personal pet peeve when folks bring up past bust/disappointing goalies without bringing the whole draft into context. The Rangers using the 6th pick in 2004 on Al Montoya doesn't look great. But the next five guys after him were Rusty Olesz, Alex Picard, Boris Valabik, Ladislav Smid, and Lauri Tukonen.

The TSN stats guy did a graph on games played as further reason to not take goalies. But I think by his logic, Smid (583 games) is more valuable than Dubnyk (298 games).

Ah...Lauri Tukonen.
God that was a terrible draft class.

 

[tigermask48]

Bringing up kickers is a bad compatison. The statistical difference between a kicker taken in the mid rounds and one taken in the late rounds, is something like 5 more points over the course of a season. Spread that over 16 games and it's nothing.

 

[deeshamrock]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/report-las-vegas-nhl-franchise-getting-closer-naming-gm/

New Vegas GM is down to 2 candidates (although rumored, Tallon was not one of the 7 candidates interviewed).




CapFriendly ‏@CapFriendly 26m26 minutes ago

With the #Canes signing Rask & #Coyotes signing Doan late last night, we no longer show any teams projected at under the $54M cap floor.

Doan's 1 yr deal is rumored to be a bonus laden one for just under 5M

and
Canes sign 23 yr old center Victor Rask to 6 yrs/ 24M deal
Panthers are pursuing Kris Russell

 

[Minor Boarding]

Lol, like every other offseason, the Alberta teams spirit quite high...
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