Around the League - Pre-Season 2024-2025

[Jimmy Firecracker]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

 

[MCR74]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

I seem to recall us Leaf fans getting raked over the coals for letting Holl go. Pepperidge Farms remembers.

 

[fahad203]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

I'll never forget the 11 games Foligno played for the leafs and the leadership he provided
Only cost us a first rounder. Luckily for us the player Columbus picked looks like a flop so far (Corson Ceulemans) and we did draft Hiddelby with the other pick we got back

Man amount of trash players we had to sign because we had no cap space

Galleychunk needs to be added to the list. He only got arrested after

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I'll never forget the 11 games Foligno played for the leafs and the leadership he provided
Only cost us a first rounder. Luckily for us the player Columbus picked looks like a flop so far (Corson Ceulemans) and we did draft Hiddelby with the other pick we got back

Man amount of trash players we had to sign because we had no cap space

Galleychunk needs to be added to the list. He only got arrested after

Galchenyuk is the one guy who f***ed it up. He should’ve re-signed here at a cheap deal and he would’ve gone off in 2021-22 beside M&M. Least he could’ve done after he f***ed us in Game 5 anyway. Instead he high-tailed it out of here, had a shitty year on a shitty Coyotes team and now he’s banished to the KHL.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Isles placed Pierre Engvall on waivers ... 1 year into his 7 year, $3 AAV deal

Lou's cap management

 

[All Mod Cons]

I fear for Pens fans tonight.

 

[DarkKnight]

I fear for Pens fans tonight.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842990173141053565

 

[ULF_55]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842990173141053565

Well if Lamoriello wants to retain I'm sure he could move Engvall.

2mm per year for Engvall would be fine, especially if there was a real NHL coach involved.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why were these bums held in such high regard and used so prominently here when the rest of the league can see them for what they are?

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Could we please rehash all of the advanced stats that told us Justin Holl was an elite shutdown D and those of us who said he sucked had no idea what we were watching?
@Dekes For Days you're pretty well versed in those stats, wanna start?

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

 

[DarkKnight]

Love this... "f*** the plays, pound their f***ing D!"

 

[Nineteen67]

Love this... "f*** the plays, pound their f***ing D!"

I’m enjoying the series.

 

[Peasy]

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

Holl never struggled here?

 

[Arzak]

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

wow that's weak even for you buddy.

It was a small sample size when they were here, now that it's no longer a usable argument, they went through bumification once they left Leafs.

Cool story, the only issue is, we all saw how bum they were here, unlike your sheeet

Holl never struggled here?

hh
you beat me to it

 

[Nineteen67]

Holl never struggled here?

I’d say he struggled a little.

He started out fine one year, and then reverted back. The GM was really bad.

 

[IPS]

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

Yup, 31 year old D with less than 300 career games played just "exit" their peak the second they leave the Leafs

This is some hilarious cope, keep it coming.

 

[VanW27]

The real message is don't invest in mediocre UFAs.

Engvall is a good 4th liner, sometimes 3rd liner. 7x3mill is atrocious

Mikheyev is a good 3rd liner at 3 million. At 4.75 he's a cap dump.

If you sign a bottom of the lineup player in UFA to a big deal you will almost certainly regret it, basically immediately.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Holl never struggled here?

He had stretches where he struggled like all depth players, especially towards the end and in that final playoffs. Nobody is perfect, and we saw some of that decline starting while he was with us. But he also had stretches where he played really well, and overall in his time here, he was a decent defenseman for us and provided surplus value on his contract when we needed it most through the flat cap. He formed a decent shutdown pairing with Muzzin, and while Muzzin was the driver of that pairing, Holl held his own in difficult minutes. Over his time here, he averaged 20 minutes a game, including shutdown 5v5 and top PK roles, put up respectable defensive results, and was positive in goal differential and underlying play every single year.

Unfortunately, some people made Holl their scapegoat, and after failing so hard at actually justifying that hatred based on his play while with us, they are now taking his struggles in his 30s on a bad team with a bad coach and zero defensive structure, to try and rewrite his history. They don't seem to realize that players change over time. Some depth players are only able to hit NHL level through their peak, or until certain attributes decline, or in certain situations or roles. That doesn't diminish what they were able to provide.

Quite frankly, if these people truly think that Holl was, is, and always will be the exact same, and he's just an inherently bad player, then it really just speaks highly of Keefe that he was able to make him effective and extract the value and impact he did out of him. What he provided for the Leafs is really all that matters.

 

[IPS]

He had stretches where he struggled like all depth players, especially towards the end and in that final playoffs. Nobody is perfect, and we saw some of that decline starting while he was with us. But he also had stretches where he played really well, and overall in his time here, he was a decent defenseman for us and provided surplus value on his contract when we needed it most through the flat cap. He formed a decent shutdown pairing with Muzzin, and while Muzzin was the driver of that pairing, Holl held his own in difficult minutes. Over his time here, he averaged 20 minutes a game, including shutdown 5v5 and top PK roles, put up respectable defensive results, and was positive in goal differential and underlying play every single year.

Unfortunately, some people made Holl their scapegoat, and after failing so hard at actually justifying that hatred based on his play while with us, they are now taking his struggles in his 30s on a bad team with a bad coach and zero defensive structure, to try and rewrite his history. They don't seem to realize that players change over time. Some depth players are only able to hit NHL level through their peak, or until certain attributes decline, or in certain situations or roles. That doesn't diminish what they were able to provide.

Quite frankly, if these people truly think that Holl was, is, and always will be the exact same, and he's just an inherently bad player, then it really just speaks highly of Keefe that he was able to make him effective and extract the value and impact he did out of him. What he provided for the Leafs is really all that matters.

He sucks now, and he sucked with the Leafs. Many of us told you that, but you denied the reality right in front of your eyes and clinged to some obscure advanced stats that didn't say anything at all. Things don't work how you think they work, if he was even half as good now as he allegedly was with the Leafs according to you, someone would have taken him off waivers.

[MOD]

 

[Peasy]

He had stretches where he struggled like all depth players, especially towards the end and in that final playoffs. Nobody is perfect, and we saw some of that decline starting while he was with us. But he also had stretches where he played really well, and overall in his time here, he was a decent defenseman for us and provided surplus value on his contract when we needed it most through the flat cap. He formed a decent shutdown pairing with Muzzin, and while Muzzin was the driver of that pairing, Holl held his own in difficult minutes. Over his time here, he averaged 20 minutes a game, including shutdown 5v5 and top PK roles, put up respectable defensive results, and was positive in goal differential and underlying play every single year.

Unfortunately, some people made Holl their scapegoat, and after failing so hard at actually justifying that hatred based on his play while with us, they are now taking his struggles in his 30s on a bad team with a bad coach and zero defensive structure, to try and rewrite his history. They don't seem to realize that players change over time. Some depth players are only able to hit NHL level through their peak, or until certain attributes decline, or in certain situations or roles. That doesn't diminish what they were able to provide.

Quite frankly, if these people truly think that Holl was, is, and always will be the exact same, and he's just an inherently bad player, then it really just speaks highly of Keefe that he was able to make him effective and extract the value and impact he did out of him. What he provided for the Leafs is really all that matters.

Yeah, he provided us with being on the ice for 75% of Tampa's goals in the lone series they were able to win. Great player

Only times he didnt look like trash was when he was being heavily carried by his partner. And as we see, bro cant even handle a 3rd pair without needing to be carried.

The joke is thinking this guy was somehow a super impactful player and using him in key moments.

This guy lost an NHL job not even 2 months after he left this org. 6 months before that we were using him as our key PKer

 

[DarkKnight]

He had stretches where he struggled like all depth players, especially towards the end and in that final playoffs. Nobody is perfect, and we saw some of that decline starting while he was with us. But he also had stretches where he played really well, and overall in his time here, he was a decent defenseman for us and provided surplus value on his contract when we needed it most through the flat cap. He formed a decent shutdown pairing with Muzzin, and while Muzzin was the driver of that pairing, Holl held his own in difficult minutes. Over his time here, he averaged 20 minutes a game, including shutdown 5v5 and top PK roles, put up respectable defensive results, and was positive in goal differential and underlying play every single year.

Unfortunately, some people made Holl their scapegoat, and after failing so hard at actually justifying that hatred based on his play while with us, they are now taking his struggles in his 30s on a bad team with a bad coach and zero defensive structure, to try and rewrite his history. They don't seem to realize that players change over time. Some depth players are only able to hit NHL level through their peak, or until certain attributes decline, or in certain situations or roles. That doesn't diminish what they were able to provide.

Quite frankly, if these people truly think that Holl was, is, and always will be the exact same, and he's just an inherently bad player, then it really just speaks highly of Keefe that he was able to make him effective and extract the value and impact he did out of him. What he provided for the Leafs is really all that matters.

I distinctly recall you arguing he was an excellent shutdown D, using the same stats people now use with Lil to argue his effectiveness. Dubas fell in love with his AHL players, Holl was always miscast and unfortunately that misguided loyalty cost the Leafs dearly when Holl blew up in the playoffs. Your revisionism is embarrassing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He sucks now, and he sucked with the Leafs. Many of us told you that, but you denied the reality right in front of your eyes and clinged to some obscure advanced stats that didn't say anything at all.

He wasn't very good last year (which was most visible in the metrics you bash without understanding), but that doesn't change that he played well through the majority of his time with the Leafs. Nothing will ever change that fact; no matter how much you attempt to go back and rewrite history based on everything except his play and results during that time. I suggest you take your own advice and learn from the more knowledgeable posters on this board.

Yeah, he provided us with being on the ice for 75% of Tampa's goals in the lone series they were able to win.

It wasn't 75%, and yes I noted that he had some struggles then, but the fact that you need to go to his worst series after he'd already started to decline and include goaltending impacts, really says it all. By your same logic, you would be praising him for allowing some of the fewest goals against through the previous 2 playoffs.

I distinctly recall you arguing he was an excellent shutdown D

I said he performed well in a top-4 shutdown role next to Muzzin when he performed well in a top-4 shutdown role next to Muzzin, because it was objectively true and valuable.

 

[Peasy]

He wasn't very good last year (which was most visible in the metrics you bash without understanding), but that doesn't change that he played well through the majority of his time with the Leafs. Nothing will ever change that fact; no matter how much you attempt to go back and rewrite history based on everything except his play and results during that time. I suggest you take your own advice and learn from the more knowledgeable posters on this board.

It wasn't 75%, and yes I noted that he had some struggles then, but the fact that you need to go to his worst series after he'd already started to decline and include goaltending impacts, really says it all. By your same logic, you would be praising him for allowing some of the fewest goals against through the previous 2 playoffs.

I said he performed well in a top-4 shutdown role next to Muzzin when he performed well in a top-4 shutdown role next to Muzzin, because it was objectively true and valuable.

He started to decline because again, he wasnt being carried by a D partner as strong as Muzzin lmao. Muzzin is literally the best overall D we've had in a long time.

Quite the coincidence he started to look awful when Muzzin was gone.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He started to decline because again, he wasnt being carried by a D partner as strong as Muzzin lmao. Muzzin is literally the best overall D we've had in a long time.
Quite the coincidence he started to look awful when Muzzin was gone.

He didn't always or immediately look bad away from Muzzin, but even if Muzzin was just carrying him, who cares? It worked. That's all that really matters.

 

[Peasy]

He didn't always or immediately look bad away from Muzzin, but even if Muzzin was just carrying him, who cares? It worked. That's all that really matters.

Yeah definitely worked well, got amazing results with him on the team

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah definitely worked well, got amazing results with him on the team

We didn't win the cup, but the pairing worked well together, and it was valuable to only have to pay ~7.5m for an effective top-4 shutdown pairing through the flat cap era.