Around the League - Pre-Season 2024-2025

[Jimmy Firecracker]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

 

[MCR74]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

I seem to recall us Leaf fans getting raked over the coals for letting Holl go. Pepperidge Farms remembers.

 

[fahad203]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843043248698536403

I'll never forget the 11 games Foligno played for the leafs and the leadership he provided
Only cost us a first rounder. Luckily for us the player Columbus picked looks like a flop so far (Corson Ceulemans) and we did draft Hiddelby with the other pick we got back

Man amount of trash players we had to sign because we had no cap space

Galleychunk needs to be added to the list. He only got arrested after

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I'll never forget the 11 games Foligno played for the leafs and the leadership he provided
Only cost us a first rounder. Luckily for us the player Columbus picked looks like a flop so far (Corson Ceulemans) and we did draft Hiddelby with the other pick we got back

Man amount of trash players we had to sign because we had no cap space

Galleychunk needs to be added to the list. He only got arrested after

Galchenyuk is the one guy who f***ed it up. He should’ve re-signed here at a cheap deal and he would’ve gone off in 2021-22 beside M&M. Least he could’ve done after he f***ed us in Game 5 anyway. Instead he high-tailed it out of here, had a shitty year on a shitty Coyotes team and now he’s banished to the KHL.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Isles placed Pierre Engvall on waivers ... 1 year into his 7 year, $3 AAV deal

Lou's cap management

 

[All Mod Cons]

I fear for Pens fans tonight.

 

[DarkKnight]

I fear for Pens fans tonight.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842990173141053565

 

[ULF_55]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842990173141053565

Well if Lamoriello wants to retain I'm sure he could move Engvall.

2mm per year for Engvall would be fine, especially if there was a real NHL coach involved.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why were these bums held in such high regard and used so prominently here when the rest of the league can see them for what they are?

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Could we please rehash all of the advanced stats that told us Justin Holl was an elite shutdown D and those of us who said he sucked had no idea what we were watching?
@Dekes For Days you're pretty well versed in those stats, wanna start?

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

 

[DarkKnight]

Love this... "f*** the plays, pound their f***ing D!"

 

[Nineteen67]

Love this... "f*** the plays, pound their f***ing D!"

I’m enjoying the series.

 

[Peasy]

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

Holl never struggled here?

 

[Arzak]

They weren't bums when they were here, and they weren't "held in such high regard" or "used so prominently". They ranged from #4-#6 defenseman and 3rd line-4th line forward with us. Based on their play with the Leafs, the rest of the league saw them to be worth assets in Engvall's case, and more money in both cases.

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

wow that's weak even for you buddy.

It was a small sample size when they were here, now that it's no longer a usable argument, they went through bumification once they left Leafs.

Cool story, the only issue is, we all saw how bum they were here, unlike your sheeet

Holl never struggled here?

hh
you beat me to it

 

[Nineteen67]

Holl never struggled here?

I’d say he struggled a little.

He started out fine one year, and then reverted back. The GM was really bad.

 

[IPS]

Seems you still struggle to understand that players and their impacts change over time. Nobody thought he was an "elite shutdown D", but you were wrong if you think he always sucked. He paired well with Muzzin, and they were a strong shutdown pairing for a couple years. As he moved out of his peak and into his 30s, moved to a more chaotic team, and played with lesser quality and less complimentary partners under a worse coach, he started to struggle.

Yup, 31 year old D with less than 300 career games played just "exit" their peak the second they leave the Leafs

This is some hilarious cope, keep it coming.

 

[VanW27]

The real message is don't invest in mediocre UFAs.

Engvall is a good 4th liner, sometimes 3rd liner. 7x3mill is atrocious

Mikheyev is a good 3rd liner at 3 million. At 4.75 he's a cap dump.

If you sign a bottom of the lineup player in UFA to a big deal you will almost certainly regret it, basically immediately.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Holl never struggled here?

He had stretches where he struggled like all depth players, especially towards the end and in that final playoffs. Nobody is perfect, and we saw some of that decline starting while he was with us. But he also had stretches where he played really well, and overall in his time here, he was a decent defenseman for us and provided surplus value on his contract when we needed it most through the flat cap. He formed a decent shutdown pairing with Muzzin, and while Muzzin was the driver of that pairing, Holl held his own in difficult minutes. Over his time here, he averaged 20 minutes a game, including shutdown 5v5 and top PK roles, put up respectable defensive results, and was positive in goal differential and underlying play every single year.

Unfortunately, some people made Holl their scapegoat, and after failing so hard at actually justifying that hatred based on his play while with us, they are now taking his struggles in his 30s on a bad team with a bad coach and zero defensive structure, to try and rewrite his history. They don't seem to realize that players change over time. Some depth players are only able to hit NHL level through their peak, or until certain attributes decline, or in certain situations or roles. That doesn't diminish what they were able to provide.

Quite frankly, if these people truly think that Holl was, is, and always will be the exact same, and he's just an inherently bad player, then it really just speaks highly of Keefe that he was able to make him effective and extract the value and impact he did out of him. What he provided for the Leafs is really all that matters.