Around the League - PLAYOFFS!?

[ULF_55]

I don’t disagree with that. Karlson wasn’t what they needed but the major core was already there no question. The pens are clearly on the downswing. That part isn’t his fault.

The thing is
1.) he brought in a bunch of pieces smith/eller/karlson/graves that did not work.
2.) he gave up a 11-14 pick this year if they pick it up. More likely he gave up a top 8 pick this year or an unprotected 2025 pick with
His core being 37 plus

There is a good chance he gave up a lottery pick. Not just “a first”

The emperor has no clothes.

Someone should break it to Crosby that he, Malkin and Letang are NHL old.

 

[BallardEra]

So Isles, Devils and Wings all lose.

Nobody wants to make the playoffs.

 

[BallardEra]

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don’t disagree with that. Karlson wasn’t what they needed but the major core was already there no question. The pens are clearly on the downswing. That part isn’t his fault.
The thing is
1.) he brought in a bunch of pieces smith/eller/karlson/graves that did not work.
2.) he gave up a 11-14 pick this year if they pick it up. More likely he gave up a top 8 pick this year or an unprotected 2025 pick with
His core being 37 plus
There is a good chance he gave up a lottery pick. Not just “a first”

They're currently in position for the 11th pick, not a lottery pick, and the pieces brought in weren't really the problem for them this year.

 

[BallardEra]

 

[Squiffy]

They're currently in position for the 11th pick, not a lottery pick, and the pieces brought in weren't really the problem for them this year.

The problem is they are cooked and at the end of a near 20 year cycle of goodness. They need to tear it down to the bones, the sooner the better. Washington too. It’s not really anyone’s fault, it a natural cycle of sports and they are at the end of it. The only fault is going forward in not identifying that and doing what needs to be done. I’m not sure Dubas has permission to do it, but he should be asking for it.

 

[Legion34]

They're currently in position for the 11th pick, not a lottery pick, and the pieces brought in weren't really the problem for them this year.

2 days ago they were 8th. They could end up there still naturally or by lottery

There are many ways he could give up an unprotected lottery pick with an aging core

Also you can’t just decide that all his moves weren’t the problem because you say so

The reviews of smith graves karlson and Elle have Benn negative

What we do know is the team got worse since he took over

 

[BallardEra]

The reviews of smith graves karlson and Elle have Benn negative

Eller has been great for the Pens.

 

[BallardEra]

 

[1specter]

The East really ain't what it used to be

 

[Dekes For Days]

The problem is they are cooked and at the end of a near 20 year cycle of goodness. They need to tear it down to the bones, the sooner the better. Washington too. It’s not really anyone’s fault, it a natural cycle of sports and they are at the end of it. The only fault is going forward in not identifying that and doing what needs to be done. I’m not sure Dubas has permission to do it, but he should be asking for it.

They sold Guentzel, which seems to signal the start of the rebuild, though stripping it to the bones will likely be a multi-year process.

2 days ago they were 8th. They could end up there still naturally or by lottery

And that was the lowest they've been all season. Barring something big happening, they're pretty locked in to somewhere between 8th and 18th.

The reviews of smith graves karlson and Elle have Benn negative

If you get your reviews from HFboards, you can pretend that everything everywhere is negative at all times, but that doesn't make it true.

What we do know is the team got worse since he took over

That's pretty misleading. The team actually started off decently, and through the end of 2023, the oldest team in the league had improved on their record, and had seen even greater improvement in their underlying metrics and goal differential. They were matching their previous season record as recently as late February, and had improved their goal differential by +18, despite not being able to buy a goal on a good chance-generating PP. They've dropped off since late February, as both Guentzel and Rust got injuries, their core players hit a wall, and they decided to sell.

 

[FerrisRox]

What actual evidence do you have that he will be ready by game 1? Are you just guessing based on an off hand comment?

Are you asking about evidence for Mark Stone magically being healthy for Game One as well, or is that one conveniently being assumed to be fact?

 

[Legion34]

Are you asking about evidence for Mark Stone magically being healthy for Game One as well, or is that one conveniently being assumed to be fact?

??? No. If you follow the thread I am clearly (I think) saying that if stone is out for a long period of time and missing into the playoffs that’s completely different then him being ready for game 1.

Kuch. Kane. Stone of previous years is different. We have already seen this before.

 

[Legion34]

They sold Guentzel, which seems to signal the start of the rebuild, though stripping it to the bones will likely be a multi-year process.

And that was the lowest they've been all season. Barring something big happening, they're pretty locked in to somewhere between 8th and 18th.

If you get your reviews from HFboards, you can pretend that everything everywhere is negative at all times, but that doesn't make it true.

That's pretty misleading. The team actually started off decently, and through the end of 2023, the oldest team in the league had improved on their record, and had seen even greater improvement in their underlying metrics and goal differential. They were matching their previous season record as recently as late February, and had improved their goal differential by +18, despite not being able to buy a goal on a good chance-generating PP. They've dropped off since late February, as both Guentzel and Rust got injuries, their core players hit a wall, and they decided to sell.

It’s not at all misleading. It’s is factually correct. You seem to decide facts you don’t like are misleading.

Last year the team was in the race until pretty much the last game. This year they selling off and are multiple points out of the playoffs.

They may go on a run and make it.
But “through the end of 2023” is irrelevant to march 18 2024.
It’s not Hf boards. Metrics. Scoring results insiders have converged on the new players not doing well.

Im not sure what the problem is then? If dubas improved the team with his additions, and Crosby was playing lights out. Why were they in 8th last 2 ago?

I liked dubas here. I agreed with most of what he did. And some of the massive mistakes he made (Hyman) I was on board with. But you are becoming one of those posters that becomes obsessed with a player/gm instead of the team. Graves, smith, karlson have not worked out at all. The team is in a worse position gave up assets to lock in for multiple years to players that have not worked added to an older core.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Man i really wish Dubas had taken a job with the Sens. I would've accepted the Oilers, Habs, Bruins or Jets.

 

[Fogelhund]

It’s not at all misleading. It’s is factually correct. You seem to decide facts you don’t like are misleading.

Last year the team was in the race until pretty much the last game. This year they selling off and are multiple points out of the playoffs.

They may go on a run and make it.
But “through the end of 2023” is irrelevant to march 18 2024.
It’s not Hf boards. Metrics. Scoring results insiders have converged on the new players not doing well.

Im not sure what the problem is then? If dubas improved the team with his additions, and Crosby was playing lights out. Why were they in 8th last 2 ago?

I liked dubas here. I agreed with most of what he did. And some of the massive mistakes he made (Hyman) I was on board with. But you are becoming one of those posters that becomes obsessed with a player/gm instead of the team. Graves, smith, karlson have not worked out at all. The team is in a worse position gave up assets to lock in for multiple years to players that have not worked added to an older core.

My son's second favourite team is Pittsburgh, and they used to be his favourite when Crosby was in his prime. Karlsson has actually played quite well, though he hasn't put up the same gaudy points he did last year... I'd suggest he's mostly worked out and played well for them.

Rakell's productivity died this year, 60 points last year, 28 points this year.. Malkin has 8 points in the last 19 games, Carter had 29 points last year, and was important depth... has 12 points this year. These older guys just seemed to hit a wall. At some point in time... age just takes over. Crosby went 9 games out of 15 without a point for a stretch there.

Yes, Smith hasn't worked out... but who really could have predicted that one? Graves has been fine... He wasn't going to get the offensive opportunity with Karlsson and Letang in the lineup.

It's just an old team, that hit the age wall... I don't think it would have mattered what was done there, or who was in charge.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

 

[Fogelhund]

View attachment 837776

Who was the winner, and who was the loser in this game? I'm not sure....

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Who was the winner, and who was the loser in this game? I'm not sure....

The fans were the losers in this game. They watched it and was baffled at what was going on… all while contemplating life.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It’s not at all misleading.

It very much is. You're sidestepping when the drop off actually happened and why it happened to attribute it to something that wasn't the cause.

It’s not Hf boards.

Well whatever you're relying on, it's leading you to the wrong conclusion.

If dubas improved the team with his additions, and Crosby was playing lights out. Why were they in 8th last 2 ago?

Crosby isn't playing lights out anymore. That's part of the problem. Relative to last year, Crosby has dropped 0.12 P/GP, and despite the team overall improving defensively, Crosby's defensive play has plummeted. For reference, during the recent stretch that dropped them from a close wildcard race down to 11th from the bottom, Crosby and Malkin have both paced 45 points and Crosby has been a team worst -12.

Since last year, Malkin has dropped 0.25 P/GP. Rakell has dropped 0.22 P/GP. Carter has dropped 0.17 P/GP. Guentzel and Rust have done well when they've played, but after both played almost the entire year last year, the former got injured and then sold off, and the latter has had 3 injuries this year. The PP that killed them? The one that dropped 15 ranks despite improved chance generation? Of the 7 regulars that played more than 2 min per game on the PP last year, 6 of those players are among their top 7 this year. Their core.

I liked dubas here. I agreed with most of what he did. And some of the massive mistakes he made (Hyman) I was on board with. But you are becoming one of those posters that becomes obsessed with a player/gm instead of the team.

Quite the contrary. I'm focused on my team, and interested in discussing teams around the league. I'd prefer this thread be used for that, but many people only seem to want to talk about one specific team in pretty misleading ways since June 1st, 2023. The deadline is over, the season is winding down, and teams are battling for the final playoff spots, and yet so much focus on an elderly non-playoff, non-bubble, non-lottery team that's not likely to be relevant again for another half decade at least.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

View attachment 837776

Pretty sure only one team in the cap era has finished with < 50 points over a full schedule. Colorado had 48 back in 2016-2017

Chicago will probably eclipse 50, but not so sure about San Jose. The toilet bowl rematch is this Saturday lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

Pretty sure only one team in the cap era has finished with < 50 points over a full schedule. Colorado had 48 back in 2016-2017
Chicago will probably eclipse 50, but not so sure about San Jose. The toilet bowl rematch is this Saturday lol

Detroit was on pace for 45 points in 2019-2020, when Covid shut the league down.
That's technically the worst pace in the cap era. San Jose this year is pacing for 2nd worst. Chicago this year is pacing for 4th worst.
Fun fact: Buffalo has 3 of the 7 worst seasonal point percentages in the cap era.

 

[BallardEra]

"After a massive win over the Detroit Red Wings, the Penguins saw their odds of making the postseason leapfrog. Heading into the Sunday night matchup, moneypuck.com gave the Penguins a 5.4% chance of making the playoffs. Following the 6-3 win, the Penguins’ odds jumped to 11.2%."

 

[Legion34]

It very much is. You're sidestepping when the drop off actually happened and why it happened to attribute it to something that wasn't the cause.

Well whatever you're relying on, it's leading you to the wrong conclusion.

Crosby isn't playing lights out anymore. That's part of the problem. Relative to last year, Crosby has dropped 0.12 P/GP, and despite the team overall improving defensively, Crosby's defensive play has plummeted. For reference, during the recent stretch that dropped them from a close wildcard race down to 11th from the bottom, Crosby and Malkin have both paced 45 points and Crosby has been a team worst -12.

Since last year, Malkin has dropped 0.25 P/GP. Rakell has dropped 0.22 P/GP. Carter has dropped 0.17 P/GP. Guentzel and Rust have done well when they've played, but after both played almost the entire year last year, the former got injured and then sold off, and the latter has had 3 injuries this year. The PP that killed them? The one that dropped 15 ranks despite improved chance generation? Of the 7 regulars that played more than 2 min per game on the PP last year, 6 of those players are among their top 7 this year. Their core.

Quite the contrary. I'm focused on my team, and interested in discussing teams around the league. I'd prefer this thread be used for that, but many people only seem to want to talk about one specific team in pretty misleading ways since June 1st, 2023. The deadline is over, the season is winding down, and teams are battling for the final playoff spots, and yet so much focus on an elderly non-playoff, non-bubble, non-lottery team that's not likely to be relevant again for another half decade at least.

Dubas had plenty of cap space and money to make the team better. They are worse. That’s reality.

He took on a 10 million dollar defenseman
A 4.5 million dollar defenseman
Neither fit a need. They had a top pairing RHD on a top pp and decided to change it.
We already saw that karlson doesn’t work well like that (burns) graves makes too much and didn’t help. Hasn’t done well. He traded guentzel for a 31-62nd pick and lower tier prospects.

And traded a realistic best case 15th overall pick/worst case 2025 1st overall pick in the karlson deal

I don’t see anything positive there he really did. He tied up cap space in old players and bad fits and gave up draft capital to more than likely miss the playoffs. As of today they are in a much worse position than they were last year, no first round pick. Lost their only top line player under 30, with more long term contracts and an aging core.

That’s reality.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Dubas had plenty of cap space and money to make the team better. They are worse. That’s reality.

He took on a 10 million dollar defenseman
A 4.5 million dollar defenseman
Neither fit a need. They had a top pairing RHD on a top pp and decided to change it.
We already saw that karlson doesn’t work well like that (burns) graves makes too much and didn’t help. Hasn’t done well. He traded guentzel for a 31-62nd pick and lower tier prospects.

And traded a realistic best case 15th overall pick/worst case 2025 1st overall pick in the karlson deal

I don’t see anything positive there he really did. He tied up cap space in old players and bad fits and gave up draft capital to more than likely miss the playoffs. As of today they are in a much worse position than they were last year, no first round pick. Lost their only top line player under 30, with more long term contracts and an aging core.

That’s reality.

In a nutshell, he took an aging team and doubled down on it. There were already some tough contacts on the books, and now there are more.

Which led to them dealing their only young-is core pieces Guentzel .. for a lacklustre return.