Around the league part 2

[King'sPawn]

So can we PLEASE PUT TO BED THE BS THAT HE WASN'T SIGNING IN LA?

(not directed at you, kingsboy11)

Re: calling Faber "the best prospect" I know I do a lot of pedantry myself, but the point is Faber moved himself up the charts where he was at least on par with Clarke. We do polls of the top prospects, which is for fun, but even if you didn't consider him the best, he was a top blue-chip prospect.

 

[tigermask48]

Totally fair. I guess I was also--because of a previous post I made--looking at it less as a trade TREE and more a raw in vs out...like here's all that was moved and here's what's left to show for it.

I mean, is it even a tree? It's almost a direct line from the assets gained from the Muzzin trade > PLD > Burroughs and Kuemper.

Yeah there are couple things lost or added along the the way, but none of it really got anything else of tangible value to the Kings in the end.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

So can we PLEASE PUT TO BED THE BS THAT HE WASN'T SIGNING IN LA?

(not directed at you, kingsboy11)

Re: calling Faber "the best prospect" I know I do a lot of pedantry myself, but the point is Faber moved himself up the charts where he was at least on par with Clarke. We do polls of the top prospects, which is for fun, but even if you didn't consider him the best, he was a top blue-chip prospect.

Do we believe him though? I mean, he denies it sure,

But then he goes on to say LAs development staff was awesome...and if you've been around this forum for any length of time you know that's just not possible.....so if he's lying about that, what else is he lying about?

Inquiring Minds want to know......

 

[tigermask48]

So can we PLEASE PUT TO BED THE BS THAT HE WASN'T SIGNING IN LA?

(not directed at you, kingsboy11)

Re: calling Faber "the best prospect" I know I do a lot of pedantry myself, but the point is Faber moved himself up the charts where he was at least on par with Clarke. We do polls of the top prospects, which is for fun, but even if you didn't consider him the best, he was a top blue-chip prospect.

After the Olympics I was a believer, he was good before that, but those Olympic games was when I bought in fully and he rocketed up the charts in a good number of people's eyes.

 

[johnjm22]

how do i find the trade thread from then? I am curious what I wrote haha

Kings News: - Fiala to for 2022 first-round pick and Brock Faber

According to sources, the #mnwild have traded the rights to pending restricted free agent Kevin Fiala to the #lakings for their 2022 first-round pick and University of Minnesota captain Brock Faber

forums.hfboards.com

 

[King'sPawn]

Kings News: - Fiala to for 2022 first-round pick and Brock Faber

According to sources, the #mnwild have traded the rights to pending restricted free agent Kevin Fiala to the #lakings for their 2022 first-round pick and University of Minnesota captain Brock Faber

forums.hfboards.com

I hate this trade so much.

This almost guarantees Byfield plus every other forward prospect, except maybe Kaliyev, to playing 11-12 minutes a night and to keep playing as the grinders.

And they spent a 1st + a bluechip defensive prospect to further impede the forward prospect development and chase another playoff appearance.

Got some predictions wrong.

Byfield ended up averaging 14 minutes a night, skewed by moving him up to the Kopitar line in the last quarter of the season, after nothing else was working. Kaliyev averaged 11:47. Vilardi averaged 15:36.

Grundstrom, JAD, Kupari, Fagemo, Turcotte all averaged below 11 minutes.

But he's also yet to hit 85 points. And Faber is showing to be a great defenseman.

I somehow hate the trade even more now.

 

[tbrown33]

Faber gets an 8 year deal and all of a sudden he’s second Jesus.

Barely anyone made this amount of fuss about Roy and Durzi when they both signed long term deals and neither recouped a player back like Fiala.

Combined those two recouped just a 2nd round pick.

Everyone who is upset about Faber is more than happy to also point out how Roy and Durzi were jettisoned for basically nothing.

 

[YP44]

Got some predictions wrong.

Byfield ended up averaging 14 minutes a night, skewed by moving him up to the Kopitar line in the last quarter of the season, after nothing else was working. Kaliyev averaged 11:47. Vilardi averaged 15:36.

Grundstrom, JAD, Kupari, Fagemo, Turcotte all averaged below 11 minutes.

But he's also yet to hit 85 points. And Faber is showing to be a great defenseman.

I somehow hate the trade even more now.

I was ok with the acquisition value but was concerned over Fiala's contract. Hi contract has been the very good for LA. Was bass ackward

 

[KingsOfCali25]

Had we done a poll in 2022, Faber probably would've been considered the Kings 3rd best prospect behind Byfield and Clarke.

But he would have got #1 votes from a few posters around here.

I think the price LA paid for Fiala was fair value ON PAPER at the time. That doesn't make it a good trade though.

Bland has been right the entire time. He deserves credit for that.

I said multiple times Faber's development reminded a bit of Shea Weber; 2nd round pick known for defense, who's extremely dedicated, and gets better and better each year. Then before you know it he's a surprise top Dman. (Obviously the two are very different players)

When the trade went down, I didn't have much of an issue with the trade itself, moreso I felt the Kings should have still been in rebuild mode as opposed to trying to "win now". I felt the same way about the Danault signing.

I would have definitely had Faber as #1. He did nothing but prove his worth after being drafted.

Faber
Vilardi
Byfield
Turcotte

I was high on Faber and thought he was our Doughty replacement before Clarke was picked. High on Vilardi for his scoring talents even with the back issues. Lower on Byfield because I didn't like his overall game in Juniors. Thought they should have taken Stutzle.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Are we rehashing this shit again?

 

[johnjm22]

Got some predictions wrong.

Byfield ended up averaging 14 minutes a night, skewed by moving him up to the Kopitar line in the last quarter of the season, after nothing else was working. Kaliyev averaged 11:47. Vilardi averaged 15:36.

Grundstrom, JAD, Kupari, Fagemo, Turcotte all averaged below 11 minutes.

But he's also yet to hit 85 points. And Faber is showing to be a great defenseman.

I somehow hate the trade even more now.

Minutiae.

You pretty much nailed it big picture wise.

I stand by what I said in that thread:

Purely in terms of asset value, I think Blake did pretty well. Especially if Faber didn't want to sign here.

I don't love the contact though.

The Kings have no real playmaking forwards with vision. Fiala doesn't fix that. This will continue to limit LA's offense, especially on the PP.

The question is, is this a closer-to-the-playoffs, further-away-from-the-SC type move? I suspect it is, but it does make the on ice product much more entertaining in the short term.

His development is reminding me a bit of Shea Weber.

Weber obviously came up through the CHL, but he was also a 2nd round draft pick that wasn't considered much of an offensive player. But he steadily got better and better each year in all aspects of the game including offense.

"Closer to the playoffs, further away from the cup" is EXACTLY what that trade was.

 

[johnjm22]

Are we rehashing this shit again?

It's the offseason.

Also, we're going to be re-hashing this trade for decades. Get used to it.

 

[Herby]

The trade was just another victim of the absolutely horrific decision made in the summer of 2021 to appease veterans and end the rebuild. The worst decision (when looked at in totality) a Kings GM has made in my lifetime, and I ain't exactly a spring chicken. The amount of young talent sacrificed and years wasted in the black-hole will be extremely difficult to look back on once the Blake nightmare is over. Heck its not even going to take that long when you see the success of Faber and the success of the players at the top of the 2022 and 2023 drafts, where had the Kings been competently run they would have been drafting. The decision to appease Doughty and Kopitar cost the Kings Faber, two top young assets from those picks, Vilardi and Durzi.

But when you make the decision to chase a 100/1 long-shot in a 3 year window, then it made some sense to trade for an offensive player, because the Kings didn't have anywhere close to the offensive talent needed to win, not at the NHL level and not in the pipeline. Vilardi was coming off a hugely disappointing season and the writing was on the wall with Turcotte. So he was backed into a corner and made a desperate move, because he thought he had the RHD's to handle it, and frankly he probably never thought in a million years that Faber would be a #1 defenseman in the 2023-24 season. And realistically the best chance to win were the years where 11 and 8 were youngest, each year they get older the chances of success went down.

When you declare a war you almost assuredly can't win, it's inevitable you are going to have to choose battles that are probably going to end in disaster but you have to fight them for that 1/100 chance.

Kopitar and Doughty should have been sat down in 2021 and told that we were rebuilding for another 2-3 years, they were more than welcome to stay on, and if they didn't want to, then to give Blake a list of teams they'd be open to be traded to.

 

[johnjm22]

Outsider perspective.

"What could be the worst trade in LA Kings history."

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Outsiders must not be well acquainted with this team's history if they think that's the worst trade they've ever made. I could think of 10 far worse trades that set the team back for many, many years.

 

[crassbonanza]

Just thinking about this "out loud"

Muzzin was traded for
Grundstrom, Durzi and a 1st

Who they picked isn't really relevant. They aquired opportunity.

As for Durzi and Grundstrom

You can't just hand wave away the contributions of those players while they were here as being non-existent just because they're no longer here.

The Muzzin trade brought 136 games, 12 goals and 65 points of Sean Durzi and 236 games, 40 goals and 67 points of Grundstrom AND two playoff appearances that both of those players contributed to. It also brought a first round pick which was used to draft a player that was then, arguably, poorly managed and was ultimately lost on waivers.

You can quibble about first round exits all you like but you don't get to pretend that trade didnt bring additional value other than future "Burroughs and Kuemper"

IN ADDITION (again just thinking out loud)

The fact that both Durzi and Grundstrom were signed to new contracts after having been acquired, to ME, makes a dividing line between the original acquisiton trade and the subsequent departure trades.

It's not an unbroken chain of hockey career the way the PLD trade in and trade out was.

Too many things happened between the Muzzin trade and the Grundstrom/Dubois trades for Burroughs/Kuemper trades for me to view it as one seemless transaction.

That's NOT to say that criticisms can't be levied. I just think they need to be more nuanced to have any real meaning.

Honest question. If you were still doing life in hockeywood, would you still be as defensive over these moves?

I understand your argument, but it doesn't really seem like a fair assessment of the trade. The Kings traded a valuable asset and ended up with a cap dump.

 

[Kingfan1967]

Outsider perspective.

"What could be the worst trade in LA Kings history."

When this trade exists "Ron Grahame (Boston Goalie) for a 1st round pick (ended up being Ray Borque)". it's not even close to the worst

 

[Statto]

The trade was just another victim of the absolutely horrific decision made in the summer of 2021 to appease veterans and end the rebuild. The worst decision (when looked at in totality) a Kings GM has made in my lifetime, and I ain't exactly a spring chicken. The amount of young talent sacrificed and years wasted in the black-hole will be extremely difficult to look back on once the Blake nightmare is over. Heck its not even going to take that long when you see the success of Faber and the success of the players at the top of the 2022 and 2023 drafts, where had the Kings been competently run they would have been drafting. The decision to appease Doughty and Kopitar cost the Kings Faber, two top young assets from those picks, Vilardi and Durzi.

But when you make the decision to chase a 100/1 long-shot in a 3 year window, then it made some sense to trade for an offensive player, because the Kings didn't have anywhere close to the offensive talent needed to win, not at the NHL level and not in the pipeline. Vilardi was coming off a hugely disappointing season and the writing was on the wall with Turcotte. So he was backed into a corner and made a desperate move, because he thought he had the RHD's to handle it, and frankly he probably never thought in a million years that Faber would be a #1 defenseman in the 2023-24 season. And realistically the best chance to win were the years where 11 and 8 were youngest, each year they get older the chances of success went down.

When you declare a war you almost assuredly can't win, it's inevitable you are going to have to choose battles that are probably going to end in disaster but you have to fight them for that 1/100 chance.

Kopitar and Doughty should have been sat down in 2021 and told that we were rebuilding for another 2-3 years, they were more than welcome to stay on, and if they didn't want to, then to give Blake a list of teams they'd be open to be traded to.

I completely agree that the rebuild ended too early, however as I’ve said before that won’t have been Blake’s call. A rebuild is strategic and that call is made over the GM’s head usually and definitely would be here. Blake is culpable because a) he could have walked away and/or b) made better trades to deliver it (even if Luc’s finger prints seem to be all over some of the moves).

 

[Herby]

I completely agree that the rebuild ended too early, however as I’ve said before that won’t have been Blake’s call. A rebuild is strategic and that call is made over the GM’s head usually and definitely would be here. Blake is culpable because a) he could have walked away and/or b) made better trades to deliver it (even if Luc’s finger prints seem to be all over some of the moves).

There has never been any reporting of any kind saying that, not from either organizational mouthpieces like Hoven or from independent journalists like Rosen. What we do know is that Robitaille and Blake both came to power pushing the idea to ownership that the team could still contend with 11 and 8, and seven years in they have produced as many series wins managing the team that you and I have, ZERO.

Plus, AEG has a history of allowing a slow and proper rebuild to occur, it happened under the previous regime, so why would AEG be so opposed to trying that strategy again? Why didn't they force Lombardi to try and contend? It's waaaaaaaaaay more likely that AEG is completely hands off and Blake and Luc have been given full autonomy to run the team as they wish and the only time we will hear from AEG is whenever the time comes for Dan Beckerman to come in with his Valyrian sword and take their heads.

I think they had this all planned out once it went off the rails in 2018-2019, they figured they could draft very high in the next three drafts and be able to add those guys to Doughty and AK while still in their somewhat primes and they could have contended in 22-23-24 before AK's contract ended, he was past his prime, and those guys needed to be signed to their big extensions. Instead their #2 overall pick developed extremely slowly and only had one 55 point season before his contract ended, their #5 pick has been arguably the worst pick in team history and has contributed basically nothing in 5 years, and their other pick, they (for whatever reason) have yet to trust at the NHL level, and played only a fraction of the games that was likely expected through three seasons in the organization of a pick that high.

Was that logic sound? Well they probably would have hit to immediately hit on all those picks for the plan to work, which is a tough task, because drafting is obviously an inexact science and it's tough to expect to go 3 for 3 in consecutive drafts. If they end up with Stutzle, Boldy and Power (just an example of ending up with 3 studs in 3 drafts) and hang on to Faber, are the Kings contenders any of the previous 3 seasons? Maybe, but again that requires batting 1000, which probably wasn't realistic. They needed to give themselves a margin of error in-case a pick like Turcotte was made, and they gave themselves none.

 

[tigermask48]

But when you make the decision to chase a 100/1 long-shot in a 3 year window, then it made some sense to trade for an offensive player, because the Kings didn't have anywhere close to the offensive talent needed to win, not at the NHL level and not in the pipeline. Vilardi was coming off a hugely disappointing season and the writing was on the wall with Turcotte. So he was backed into a corner and made a desperate move, because he thought he had the RHD's to handle it, and frankly he probably never thought in a million years that Faber would be a #1 defenseman in the 2023-24 season. And realistically the best chance to win were the years where 11 and 8 were youngest, each year they get older the chances of success went down.

If this was Blake's line of thinking it is an extremely bad talent evaluation, because post 2022 Olympics Faber was very much looking every bit a #1 defenseman very very soon.

 

[bland]

Outsiders must not be well acquainted with this team's history if they think that's the worst trade they've ever made. I could think of 10 far worse trades that set the team back for many, many years.

Go ahead.

 

[johnjm22]

Outsiders must not be well acquainted with this team's history if they think that's the worst trade they've ever made. I could think of 10 far worse trades that set the team back for many, many years.

He said "could be."

If Faber develops into a top tier Dman for a decade plus, it absolutely is one of the worst trades in franchise history.

 

[King'sPawn]

I completely agree that the rebuild ended too early, however as I’ve said before that won’t have been Blake’s call. A rebuild is strategic and that call is made over the GM’s head usually and definitely would be here. Blake is culpable because a) he could have walked away and/or b) made better trades to deliver it (even if Luc’s finger prints seem to be all over some of the moves).

Part of Blake's job is to sell his vision. I understand you're still ascribing culpability to Blake, but it's part of the whole issue with Kings management in general. Either:
- Blake and Luc are on board, they both genuinely believed virtually every year for 5-6 of the past 8 years, they were 1-2 pieces away from having playoff success
- Blake wanted to rebuild, but Luc didn't. So we have a meddling President and flaccid GM
- Just making the playoffs was the goal, and by and large consider this tenure a success.

Some are seemingly okay with the results. Either way, when contrasted with the previous regime that had 2 cup wins and a semifinal appearance in a similar time frame, it's a relatively dissatisfying product.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Go ahead.

Surely you aren't foreign to the history of the team trading away first round picks like they were nothing?

Ron Grahame for a 1st (Ray Bourque)
Rick Martin for a 1st (Tom Barrasso)
Skip Krake for a 1st (Reggie Leach)
Jerry Korab for a 1st (Phil Housley)
Gerry Desjardins for two 1sts (Steve Shutt and Dick Redmond)
Bob Murdoch and Randy Rota for a 1st (Mario Tremblay)
Larry Murphy for Brian Engblom and Ken Houston
Butch Goring for Dave Lewis and Billy Harris
Alex Zhitnik for Grant Fuhr
Darryl Sydor for Doug Zmolek and Shane Churla
Milan Lucic for a 1st that would've likely been Mat Barzal or Kyle Connor (plus Martin Jones and Colin Miller).

All of these moves were far worse, as what the Kings got in return were short term players, and all of those listed were short-sighted moves.

The Kings traded away many picks that turned into Hall of Famers and Stanley Cup champions for many, many years. They also loved trading for over-the-hill players whose best years were far behind them, and achieved absolutely nothing as a result of all of these moves.

Hate on the trade all you want, but calling Faber for Fiala their worst trade in their history is something an uneducated person would say.

 

[DoktorJeep]

I think Faber is the highest paid player Rob Blake has ever drafted. Only took 8 years. Great job Blakey!