Around the league part 2

[GoldenBearHockey]

I never said by himself. However I look at the series vs Winnipeg a couple of years ago. The Oilers were the higher seeds and lost, a team led by a true generational player would have won that series, no doubt. He cherry picks in play-off games. In regular season games the Oilers are being outplayed he only seems to try when on the pp to get his points (Drai is really bad at that). So no, not generational for me. Best in the game? yes. generational? No. Hall of fame? No brainer.

I don’t need a cup for him to be generational but I need more. He needs to make his team over achieve in the playoffs… he hasn’t done that (see Gretzky in ‘93 as an example of generational form without actually winning). He may get there but he was anointed generational before he played a single game. Sorry but you need to earn it and points are not enough.

On average there should be a single generational player every 20-30 years (which is what a generation is) we have about 6-10 playing in the
game currently on most peoples definitions.

See Gretzky, 93 oh you mean with Robitaille, Kurri, Granato, Sandstrom, Blake, Zhitnik, Coffey, Sydor,

I mean I get what you are saying, but Greztky wasn't by himself

I agree with GBH (somehow)

If you put mcdavid's exact production on a team with competent bottom 6, goaltending, and/or defense, they stroll to a cup and then suddenly he's a winner.

Careful now, can't have too much of that....

 

[Fishhead]

If the cap goes up to $87.5M next year, which is somewhat muddied by the Bally/Diamond fiasco, Ottawa will have 46.6% of their cap taken up by 5 players. That is significantly high. They are also tethered to Korpisalo, their eggs are in that basket.

Right now they have about $13.5M to fill 4 forward spots (1 RFA) and 1 Defense (RFA). 2 of those spots are Tarasenko and Kubalik. With no raises those current 5 make $11M. And that's just to get to 20 roster spots.

Chychrun is up the year after, he's not sticking around anywhere near his current cap hit. They'll have that great core, but filling out the rest will be a challenge. They will be able to retool the supporting cast if Tarasenko, Kubalik, Chychrun, and Giroux are gone, but those are mostly good value contracts right now. They will be creative and there are always ways around certain cap restrictions, but it won't be easy. They could have made it much easier if they had an extra $4m lying around from those signings.

 

[Fishhead]

The closest single player to take their team to a cup by himself would be Orr. And honestly, even if Phil Espo wasn't there I think he does it. That final wasn't even close.

No one else really comes close to that because he was such a unicorn.

I use the traditional definition of franchise that most now call generational. I use a very high bar for the definitions and Stutzle doesn’t yet qualify for me. However McDavid isn’t generational for me either… he is more interested in points than wins. He hasn’t yet been the difference in a series the Oilers should have lost… they made hard work of us twice but they definitely should have beaten us. He’s a scorer, not a winner… yet.

I see McDavid as a generational talent, but not a generational player if that makes sense.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I agree with GBH (somehow)

If you put mcdavid's exact production on a team with competent bottom 6, goaltending, and/or defense, they stroll to a cup and then suddenly he's a winner.

I mean I want to agree but I don't think it's that simple

1. salary, 25 million + on one line.
2. deployment--much like Karlsson when you give one guy all the soft offensive minutes you're opening up your lesser players to play harder minutes. There's a reason the big two way guys were successful, they saw off the crosbys and mcdavids of the world while depth runs wild.
3. Defense, Yzerman started winning when he learned where his own zone was, for all his scoring prowess, McDavid has finished barely even or as a minus on 4 of his 5 playoff runs.

So sure, like EK, it's 'everyone elses fault but him,' but you have to account for why other lesser players on the team are getting jammed into lose-lose situations.

Also

don't forget re: Sens

they just signed forward MacEwen to a three-year, $2.325-million contract and already waived him today

 

[bland]

I agree with GBH (somehow)

If you put mcdavid's exact production on a team with competent bottom 6, goaltending, and/or defense, they stroll to a cup and then suddenly he's a winner.

That's the problem though. You can't pay somebody for McDavids level of play and still afford the other necessary ingredients to win without significant production - be it offense, defense or goaltending - from cost-controlled assets. Its a poor analogy.

If you have everybody getting paid what they are worth on the free market you will never be able to afford a contender. That's one of the places Blake is going wrong, he has too many expensive contracts that are filling the top 9 without developing the cost-controlled assets to offset the cap hits.

And that's not even dealing with the fact that McDavid needs to change his game if he wants to win.

 

[johnjm22]

I thought Chychrun, DeBrincat, MacEwen and Korpisalo were odd moves for the Senators.

What the Devils were last year, I think that's what Ottawa will be this year. I'm expecting them to break out.

 

[Schmooley]

Also

don't forget re: Sens

they just signed forward MacEwen to a three-year, $2.325-million contract and already waived him today

I like what the Sens have done through the draft but they have also made mistakes like this. They also gave Korpisalo a ridiculous deal that may come back to bite them as soon as this season.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Yet for all of that the Sens are capped out with a goaltending situation not much better than ours, their 'elite 3C' isn't even signed, and Chychrun and Norris are one sneeze away from retirement

I love what they've done--they've given money to the right players in such manner that the next few years should find them with some space to play with but let's not 'grass is greener' so hard, they have some problems that will appear in very short order, particularly should they hit ANY injury adversity (or goaltending shenanigans).

Now all that being said--it's extra damning that all the teams drafting around the same time as the Kings at the end of the decade are all on the verge of surpassing them on the backs of their young talent while the Kings get ready to saddle up old yeller.

I feel like the kings/rangers are in similar spots. A weird mix of older/younger players that are contenders... but prob dont have enough to push them over.

Teams that missed on their high picks, where teams like NJ/Buffalo/Ott etc hit on thier high picks.

You turn Byfield to Stutzle/Sanderson
You turn Turcotte to Cozens/Seider/Zegras/boldy

its a whole different story, maybe you dont end up with Fiala/Dubois... at the same time maybe making those moves was a bit premature, and could have waited until you started seeing what your prospects can do at nhl level.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I think maybe Zack MacEwen doesn't want the job anymore.

His dad passed away over Covid and he got engaged. He really didn't start as an Enforcer.

Even in his brief stay here, he seemed uninterested except the one playoff game where he chased Nurse around and challenged Kane off the face off for the Doughty hit.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think maybe Zack MacEwen doesn't want the job anymore.

His dad passed away over Covid and he got engaged. He really didn't start as an Enforcer.

Even in his brief stay here, he seemed uninterested except the one playoff game where he chased Nurse around and challenged Kane off the face off for the Doughty hit.

I feel for the guy, seemed like he had a lot to think about

but he just signed a three year contract so I can't imagine he's that much out of it

 

[Johnny Utah]

That's the issue with the fighters or players who play that role; it's tough to give them a deal like that - they get too content and that job needs for them to be on the edge.

Lemieux was playing on one year deals here, so he had to do the job as pest, fighter, etc to stay in the league and make a name for himself in case it didn't work out in LA.

Same with Englund, he signed a two year, so he needs to make a impression to get another contract.

 

[bland]

That's the issue with the fighters or players who play that role; it's tough to give them a deal like that - they get too content and that job needs for them to be on the edge.

Lemieux was playing on one year deals here, so he had to do the job as pest, fighter, etc to stay in the league and make a name for himself in case it didn't work out in LA.

Same with Englund, he signed a two year, so he needs to make a impression to get another contract.

MacEwen has always been more a diffuser than an instigator. He will drop them to settle things down instead of stirring them up. He used to be a competent 4th liner too, but he was dreadful here last year and it sounds like he carried that on to Ottawa.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I had a feeling since he did nothing in a few scrappy pre-season games where Kastelic had to fight that he was on the shit list with Ottawa.

 

[King'sPawn]

I agree with GBH (somehow)

If you put mcdavid's exact production on a team with competent bottom 6, goaltending, and/or defense, they stroll to a cup and then suddenly he's a winner.

Well, yeah. But that's the criticism of Oilers management (and, in a roundabout way, the Kings too); they try to focus on outscoring their problems instead of addressing gaps. They FINALLY brought in a player like Ekholm, but they still have a lot of holes in defense and goaltending, and committing absurd money to lousy players like Nurse, or bringing in historical malcontents like Kane.

Which is why some of us Kings fans want to commit to a rebuild. Kopitar is my favorite player, but he shouldn't be the centerpiece of the offense at his age. Cost-controlled talent needs to be developed from within and set the team identity. Brown, Kopitar, Quick, Doughty were all homegrown picks and upheld the team identity of being tough to play against (in different ways - not that they were bruisers or hitters). When the youth started leading the team to the playoffs, Lombardi identified the additional pieces he needed to bring in to supplement the team.

Note that the Kings didn't need McDavid or Crosby. They needed a core developed from within so Blake can bring in the right players to fill in the boxes.

Blake's doing the opposite. He's centering the team and going for it out of respect for his legacy players. Then he's trying to make the youth develop to fill in those boxes - when they don't do it fast enough (even though they want to slow boil prospects), they trade additional future assets to fill in the spots that the youth didn't have enough time to develop into.

This is why the Fiala and PLD trades are inherently bad. It has nothing to do with the players brought in or the players going out. It's about aligning the future of your team to players who are ingerently mercenaries. And the couple extra years it may take for the youth to take over will eventually see PLD and Fiala nearing the age of 30, which is when the average player starts declining.

Players like Byfield, Kaliyev, Clarke, Faber, Spence, Vilardi, etc needed to establish their own as well as the team's identity.

And for the Oilers, they waited several years to start addressing holes in their organization, and it's still fundamentally centered around 2 players.

So, yes, an otherwise solid team who can have McDavid fill a talent gap (like Carolina) would be legit favorites to win the cup. No one player will win a cup, but nobody is asking for LA to get "that one player". Just to develop "that new core."

 

[Steve Zissou]

Florida fans chanting.... "YOU GOT FLORIDA!" in the 1st period against Toronto tonight.

 

[kingsfan28]

All this talk about the Senators and boy are we going to really hate how the Ducks are treating us over the next 5 years. They're absolutely loaded top to bottom. If they get a decent goalie, christ. Their top 6 and top 4 are going to be, arguably, the best in the league and I don't know that it will even be close.

Same was once said about the Oilers too, and they had McDavid.

Remember Haywards "We have Justin Schultz" comment? How'd that go. The Ducks had at one time the best prospect pool [especially on defense] in the league and did nothing with them except trade all of them. This was with Perry, Getzlaf,Kesler and Gibson around them. There is no leader on the current team, just a bunch of flashy guys who care more about their points than winning.

 

[ru4reals]

Florida fans chanting.... "YOU GOT FLORIDA!" in the 1st period against Toronto tonight.

And down 2-0 after the 1st!!! Gotta love Toronto. Hope Florida steps on the gas and open up a can of a** whoopin. lol.

 

[Steve Zissou]

Ovi has been gassed to start the season and Washington hasn't looked good either.

That record may start unbeatten even though he's only 73 goals away.

Forgot Ovi is already 38.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Zack MacEwen on waivers today; one of the worst players I've seen in a Kings uni in a longggg time.

 

[SmytheKing]

Same was once said about the Oilers too, and they had McDavid.

Remember Haywards "We have Justin Schultz" comment? How'd that go. The Ducks had at one time the best prospect pool [especially on defense] in the league and did nothing with them except trade all of them. This was with Perry, Getzlaf,Kesler and Gibson around them. There is no leader on the current team, just a bunch of flashy guys who care more about their points than winning.

Sure. Let's check back in three years and we'll see how good guys like Carlsson, McTavish, Mintyukov, Terry, Lacombe, Drysdale, and Zegras are. You know, the guys who are playing regular shifts in the NHL right now and are mostly all under 22 or 23 years old.

Maybe they'll be better than Byfield, Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kaliyev, Lafferiere, and Clarke. Maybe they won't be.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

All this talk about the Senators and boy are we going to really hate how the Ducks are treating us over the next 5 years. They're absolutely loaded top to bottom. If they get a decent goalie, christ. Their top 6 and top 4 are going to be, arguably, the best in the league and I don't know that it will even be close.

Dostal is a pretty damn good goalie… consistently in top 10 among goalie prospects over last 3 years.

Same was once said about the Oilers too, and they had McDavid.

Remember Haywards "We have Justin Schultz" comment? How'd that go. The Ducks had at one time the best prospect pool [especially on defense] in the league and did nothing with them except trade all of them. This was with Perry, Getzlaf,Kesler and Gibson around them. There is no leader on the current team, just a bunch of flashy guys who care more about their points than winning.

I don’t think that is a quality take

I actually think Troy terry is a good leader, you got guys like mctavish carlsson Mintyukov and drysdale who all have shown leadership qualities…. Even zegras as much as people
Hate him was a leader on his wjc gold team(by example)…. His obvious issue is maturity.

Then there are guys like Fowler killorn and gudas who have played big leadership roles on good teams, and gaucher in ahl…. Who has a jrs resume in terms of winning as good as perry/neidermyer and always seen as a leader on all his teams

 

[Statto]

See Gretzky, 93 oh you mean with Robitaille, Kurri, Granato, Sandstrom, Blake, Zhitnik, Coffey, Sydor,

I mean I get what you are saying, but Greztky wasn't by himself



Careful now, can't have too much of that....

Take Gretzky out and they don’t get past Toronto…. That hat trick game, he took it to another level to ensure they won. He was back checking properly in that game too. I don’t recall much cherry picking on cheating on plays either (I rewatched that game recently). That’s the difference. Whereas McDavid thinks it’s about points…. that scoring is enough. Anyway...

I’ve said it for a few years and I do think he showed last year he might figure it out, but he’s not there yet for me.

When I saw McDraI in the flesh for the first time, I was so disappointed having been very excited about seeing them. Instead the coasted, only looked interested on the pp (then they looked superb) & gave up pucks rather than get hit in the corner (lost every 50/50). Kaprisov however was blocking shots, taking hits to make plays and was the best player on the ice (I was in MN).

The closest single player to take their team to a cup by himself would be Orr. And honestly, even if Phil Espo wasn't there I think he does it. That final wasn't even close.

No one else really comes close to that because he was such a unicorn.



I see McDavid as a generational talent, but not a generational player if that makes sense.

I think that’s a much more reasonable take to be fair.

 

[Statto]

I agree with GBH (somehow)

If you put mcdavid's exact production on a team with competent bottom 6, goaltending, and/or defense, they stroll to a cup and then suddenly he's a winner.

But when he’s not with Drai his production drops to being more closely inline with the leagues other Franchise guys. Suddenly it’s not quite as impressive because he doesn’t make every one around him better like true generational players do. That’s why the Oilers have to play them together so often. Even Crosby did a better job of that, often playing with poor wingers allowing the Pens to play Malkin at 2C.

I want to emphasise I’m not saying he sucks. He’s truly the best player in the game, I’m just not putting him as being in the same bracket as Gretzky & Lemieux.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

But when he’s not with Drai his production drops to being more closely inline with the leagues other Franchise guys. Suddenly it’s not quite as impressive because he doesn’t make every one around him better like true generational players do. That’s why the Oilers have to play them together so often. Even Crosby did a better job of that, often playing with poor wingers allowing the Pens to play Malkin at 2C.

I want to emphasise I’m not saying he sucks. He’s truly the best player in the game, I’m just not putting him as being in the same bracket as Gretzky & Lemieux.

RNH just had 100 point season and Hyman doubled his career average, and McDavid doesn't make people better?

Man, cmon, I get what you are saying, but you take Gretzky off of EDM, they still had a f***ton of talent......same with Lemieux.....and keep in mind, I tend to favor the old fashion game, rather than this new one where everone who scores 40 goals is generational......

 

[raswilliam]

See Gretzky, 93 oh you mean with Robitaille, Kurri, Granato, Sandstrom, Blake, Zhitnik, Coffey, Sydor,

Coffey got traded to detroit on January 29, 1993. He wasnt around for the cup run that year.