Around the League - 2023 Offseason Edition

[The Abusement Park]

Kruger only coached there two years. He wasn't there his first year in Buffalo when he put up 63 points in 82 games. Wasn't there last year either when he put up 63 points again in 80 games.

In fact he's scored 63 points 4 times in his career, including his rookie season. It's like he wasn't allowed to score more until this year.

I mean he still scored 40, 33, and 35 goals in those seasons though. That's high end goal scoring. Not worth 9mil, but he's a very very good goal scorer.

 

[Pokecheque]

Skinner might be overpaid but he's still a legit top line talent IMO. That contract won't really kill them in the long run, though it may start to look kinda bad eventually.

Bringing back Okposo to me is akin to the Avs bringing back Iginla or Beauchemin after 2017. It's clear Okposo was good at one time but he's not anymore, and at some point you want your young core to take over those leadership roles. Can't do that when there are old guys on the fringe still hanging around. Just a truly terrible move by Adams, who has been surprisingly good IMO otherwise.

 

[Chiarelli]

Skinner might be overpaid but he's still a legit top line talent IMO. That contract won't really kill them in the long run, though it may start to look kinda bad eventually.

Bringing back Okposo to me is akin to the Avs bringing back Iginla or Beauchemin after 2017. It's clear Okposo was good at one time but he's not anymore, and at some point you want your young core to take over those leadership roles. Can't do that when there are old guys on the fringe still hanging around. Just a truly terrible move by Adams, who has been surprisingly good IMO otherwise.

I haven’t watched okposo play much (probably because he never does). But I feel like this team has an oft injured, overpaid long contract vet, good locker room presence. This would be like the Avs signing EJ. Just in different stages of contention windows.

 

[redacted]

Skinner got a top line contract and was promptly put on the 4th line and supposed to grind by Krueger. He had two disastrous years that coincide with the rest of the roster. I think it is pretty fair to just give Sabers players a pass on those two seasons. Once Granato got a summer, things turned around.

If you just look at the past two seasons, Skinner is tied for 27th in goals with DeBrincat and Zibanejad, ahead of Keller, Marner, and Kyrou. With points he falls to 48th. Ahead of DeBrincat, Meier, Thomas, one behind Elias Lindholm and Bratt. If you look at his whole tenure with Buffalo and include his 2 disastrous seasons he's still 78th in the NHL in points and 32nd in goals.

Say what you will about Skinner, he's still a top line quality winger.

The team that ends up paying Debrincat his $9m is going to have the same situation on their hands. A good top line wing who is a bit limited and you have to accept their warts. If you do that, you get a solidly productive player. If you force them to play a different type of role or game, you're going to be very unhappy.

Skinner might be overpaid but he's still a legit top line talent IMO. That contract won't really kill them in the long run, though it may start to look kinda bad eventually.

Bringing back Okposo to me is akin to the Avs bringing back Iginla or Beauchemin after 2017. It's clear Okposo was good at one time but he's not anymore, and at some point you want your young core to take over those leadership roles. Can't do that when there are old guys on the fringe still hanging around. Just a truly terrible move by Adams, who has been surprisingly good IMO otherwise.

I haven’t watched okposo play much (probably because he never does). But I feel like this team has an oft injured, overpaid long contract vet, good locker room presence. This would be like the Avs signing EJ. Just in different stages of contention windows.

Yeah screams more EJ/Helm to me than anything else. Okposo is a solid 3rd liner now who is good defensively, plays in all situations, and adds physicality. I wouldn't rush to pay him 2.5m... but for a team that doesn't have cap issues and is still pushing to get into the playoffs, he's fine.

 

[Foppa2118]

I mean he still scored 40, 33, and 35 goals in those seasons though. That's high end goal scoring. Not worth 9mil, but he's a very very good goal scorer.

He's a good goal scorer he just didn't learn how to pass until this year. You can't really chalk it up to line mates or coaches if you only put up 20-30 assists a season for 12 years.

If you're getting paid like an elite player you need to pass and put up points like one. It's not his fault though, it's Botterill and Pegula's fault for giving him that contract.

 

[Vaslof]

He didn't quit, he was fired.

The story I heard was that Leafs wanted him to re-sign, but he would only do it if he wouldn't have his hands tied by Shanahan.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

The story I heard was that Leafs wanted him to re-sign, but he would only do it if he wouldn't have his hands tied by Shanahan.

I think that's all true, but what happened next was key. From reports I read he wanted more independence and more money like you say, and that upset Shanahan so he canned his ass instead. Juvenile shit, basically.

 

[Foppa2118]

The story I heard was that Leafs wanted him to re-sign, but he would only do it if he wouldn't have his hands tied by Shanahan.

He was let go but he basically quit with his actions IMO. Shannahan told him he thought he did a good job, and was planning on bringing him back.

Then he started sounding like he wasn't sure if he wanted to return with his end of year comments, and then asked for more money, and more autonomy.

Of course his boss was gonna show him to the door after that, and I bet that's what Dubas wanted. He negotiated his way out.

I think he knew he was gonna be blamed for the lack of success, and didn't want to deal with the pressure anymore.

 

[Pokecheque]

The story I heard was that Leafs wanted him to re-sign, but he would only do it if he wouldn't have his hands tied by Shanahan.

See below.

I think that's all true, but what happened next was key. From reports I read he wanted more independence and more money like you say, and that upset Shanahan so he canned his ass instead. Juvenile shit, basically.

He was let go but he basically quit with his actions IMO. Shannahan told him he thought he did a good job, and was planning on bringing him back.

Then he started sounding like he wasn't sure if he wanted to return with his end of year comments, and then asked for more money, and more autonomy.

Of course his boss was gonna show him to the door after that, and I bet that's what Dubas wanted. He negotiated his way out.

I think he knew he was gonna be blamed for the lack of success, and didn't want to deal with the pressure anymore.

For Shanahan to let one press conference completely derail his plans just tells me that he's way more haphazard and prone to panicky decisions than we were led to believe.

I don't believe Dubas "negotiated" his way out, but he did draw a line in the sand. I still don't think he expected the Leafs to just say "we're moving on" that quickly, he most assuredly didn't think the Leafs would make it so public and then essentially turn him into the league. I think the Leafs abruptly cutting the cord the way they did was impetuous and a bit childish.

 

[redacted]

There is a lot that will come out from both sides (a lot already has). Dubas is very deliberate and very protective of his employees. He’s also a guy who believes in empowering each employee as much as possible. He’s worked for 2 years getting his people all locked in prior to himself (one of the brightest minds I think they have got a 2 year extension last August). This year (especially the last 6 months) he has been working on his security. Anything he would have asked for would be deliberate and well known. It wouldn’t have been a surprise to anyone in that organization. He would have asked for what he thought it took to be successful. There wasn’t a negotiation out… so much as a parting of ways.

 

[Balthazar]

to let one press conference completely derail his plans

I don't blame him for that one. He thought that Dubas was 100% commited to come back and learned in this presser that it wasn't the case.

If Shanahan's plan was to tell Dubas that they keep him BUT *insert a bunch of conditions*... and then learned that Dubas may or may not want to come back it changes things. The power dynamics/leverage isn't nearly the same.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't believe Dubas "negotiated" his way out, but he did draw a line in the sand. I still don't think he expected the Leafs to just say "we're moving on" that quickly, he most assuredly didn't think the Leafs would make it so public and then essentially turn him into the league. I think the Leafs abruptly cutting the cord the way they did was impetuous and a bit childish.

Do the quotes below sound like a guy who really wanted to come back, or someone looking to setup a way out?

Before:

“It requires me to have a full family discussion,” Dubas, his voice shaking with emotion, said at an afternoon press conference. “My family is a hugely important part of what I do. For me to commit to anything without having a fuller understanding of what this year took (out of) them … it’s probably unfair for me to answer where I’m at."

“I definitely don’t have it in me to go anywhere else,” Dubas said. “It’ll either be here or it’ll be taking time to recalibrate (and) reflect on the seasons here. But you won’t see me next week pop up elsewhere.”

After:

“In the days that I felt I needed to assess and evaluate my own view [of] the future, both with respect to the necessary direction of the Club and ensuring that I had the full support of my family for what I knew would be required in the off-season and years to follow, the organization, as is their right to do, decided to go in a different direction,”

Hard to believe he wouldn't know if he wanted to come back or not. I think he knew, because he claimed he wanted to come back and asked for the moon just a day or two later.

On the heels of being so ambivalent about coming back, he asked for both more money and more autonomy (meaning his boss Shanahan got less autonomy) that he was never getting, so it should be pretty easy to read between the lines IMO.

Posture like you might not come back, then ask for a raise and your boss to give up autonomy after another disappointing season? Come on.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

He wasn't really fired either. His contract was not renewed.

Same as when Q left the Avs. They mutually agreed to part ways. Q was right about the core not being good enough though.

 

[Avs_19]

They have 8 30+ year olds on multi-year contracts. I also just realized they still have JJ on the books for his buyout.

I'm surprised he's not waiting for a better job.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

They have 8 30+ year olds on multi-year contracts. I also just realized they still have JJ on the books for his buyout.

I'm surprised he's not waiting for a better job.

It would be one thing if he was brought in and told to tear it down and start the rebuild. I always hate when teams allow the outgoing GM to trade all the assets. Fire the GM first, hire your new GM and allow them to make those moves.

I know there are only 32 jobs in the NHL for GMs but taking over an expired product that has long contracts to aging vets and being told to try to keep it cobbled together seems like a hard sell. The team has basically committed to ultimate failure and won't do anything until after Crosby retires.

 

[Chiarelli]

They have 8 30+ year olds on multi-year contracts. I also just realized they still have JJ on the books for his buyout.

I'm surprised he's not waiting for a better job.

It’s a near perfect opportunity? They’ll allow a full on suck for multiple years and give him full authority over decisions. The guy gets to build his own team from scratch. I think he’ll be great in that set up.

 

[redacted]

If you have ownership back to tear down suck and rebuild from the bottom it is a fantastic job. If you are told you can break up the big 3 and it is pulled from you… it’s a terrible job. FSG holds those cards. Even if it is letting Crosby and Malkin expire and walk, or Crosby on a retirement contract (that isn’t largely impactful on their cap)… that’s fine. They just need to be willing to let it burn and rise from the ashes.

 

[Foppa2118]

They have 8 30+ year olds on multi-year contracts. I also just realized they still have JJ on the books for his buyout.

I'm surprised he's not waiting for a better job.

This quote was a little over a week ago. He was let go 6 days ago. More proof IMO that Dubas wanted out and knew what he was doing. He had his next GF lined up immediately after the break up.

"It’ll either be here or it’ll be taking time to recalibrate (and) reflect on the seasons here. But you won’t see me next week pop up elsewhere.”

 

[Chiarelli]

If you have ownership back to tear down suck and rebuild from the bottom it is a fantastic job. If you are told you can break up the big 3 and it is pulled from you… it’s a terrible job. FSG holds those cards. Even if it is letting Crosby and Malkin expire and walk, or Crosby on a retirement contract (that isn’t largely impactful on their cap)… that’s fine. They just need to be willing to let it burn and rise from the ashes.

That’s the one thing I can’t see Dubas doing is trading Sid. Not because of ownership meddling either.

 

[redacted]

That’s the one thing I can’t see Dubas doing is trading Sid. Not because of ownership meddling either.

Yeah I can’t see it either… but no real reason to as long as he isn’t absurdly expensive

 

[dahrougem2]

Ok fine, they won't trade Sid. Just send us Geno.

 

[Balthazar]

Ok fine, they won't trade Sid. Just send us Geno.

 

[redacted]

I’ve missed this gif.

 

[Balthazar]

Anyone else following this saga/drama?






It started here:

 

[redacted]

Anyone else following this saga/drama?






It started here:

How dare you dox me!