Around the League - 2023/24

[ANewHope]

It will always be very difficult to compare players of different eras. So many things can affect how a player plays and how good he was in that era. For instance Gretzky played in an era that he was very well protected by goons on his team. He certainly wasn't challenged physically like McDavid, Crosby (concussions), etc.

He may have had goons/got babied for sure but he played in a league that was 1000x more physical. Mcdavid is playing in the least physical era we've ever seen. You don't need goons anymore. NHL has prioritized speed/skill. What's considered dirty nowadays was a routine play back then.

Entirely different games which is why I think it's always made sense to compare what they did in their era's. Which is why Gretzky will always be the GOAT most likely. Almost impossible to top.

 

[Pokecheque]

He may have had goons/got babied for sure but he played in a league that was 1000x more physical. Mcdavid is playing in the least physical era we've ever seen. You don't need goons anymore. NHL has prioritized speed/skill. What's considered dirty nowadays was a routine play back then.

Entirely different games which is why I think it's always made sense to compare what they did in their era's. Which is why Gretzky will always be the GOAT most likely. Almost impossible to top.

Some thoughts.

1. Goons didn't and never will actually "protect" star players.
2. Gretzky's insane hockey sense was the reason he didn't get trapped or run over like other stars, he wasn't even close to being the fastest skater of his era but he thought about twice as fast as everyone else. No one could line him up for a check while he had the puck. His ability to think the game is still superior to Mario, Crosby, and McDavid. The only guy I'd argue came even close was Lidstrom. And how many times did we ever see Lidstrom get crunched by a big hit? Didn't happen often.
3. I don't buy that today's league isn't nearly physical. I'd argue a LOT more clutching and grabbing takes place now than it did back then. There is a far, far greater emphasis on defense and trapping systems than there ever was in Gretzky's day. Phil Esposito flat-out admitted he was never taught how to get his stick in a passing lane and what not. It just wasn't a thing.

I agree era-related adjustments should be considered but like anything else, it requires context.

 

[PAZ]

Dedication and ambition would be putting the powder away during a Cup run. Where your team needs you. Not snorting lines and partying with hookers. Clearly his priorities are elsewhere. Which isn’t a surprise as he’s an addict. But dedication to the team is severely lacking.

Think this is where we disagree. You can be dedicated to your team and have ambitious goals while also having vices that are detrimental to what you're working towards.

It wasn't too long ago that we were talking about how much of a warrior Nuke was by playing through a broken foot. That's dedication - and I still believe this is where the root cause of the issue came from. And to be clear i'm not giving him a free pass, simply that if he wasn't dedicated to the team he would've pulled a Matthews/Nylander and said he was injured and couldn't play.

 

[dahrougem2]

The outright hooking was laughably allowed back then, but there is so much more subltle interference/holding in today's game.

 

[ANewHope]

Some thoughts.

1. Goons didn't and never will actually "protect" star players.
2. Gretzky's insane hockey sense was the reason he didn't get trapped or run over like other stars, he wasn't even close to being the fastest skater of his era but he thought about twice as fast as everyone else. No one could line him up for a check while he had the puck. His ability to think the game is still superior to Mario, Crosby, and McDavid. The only guy I'd argue came even close was Lidstrom. And how many times did we ever see Lidstrom get crunched by a big hit? Didn't happen often.
3. I don't buy that today's league isn't nearly physical. I'd argue a LOT more clutching and grabbing takes place now than it did back then. There is a far, far greater emphasis on defense and trapping systems than there ever was in Gretzky's day. Phil Esposito flat-out admitted he was never taught how to get his stick in a passing lane and what not. It just wasn't a thing.

I agree era-related adjustments should be considered but like anything else, it requires context.

I feel like we'll never agree on this. When a player openly admits he thinks twice about what he does on the ice because of a certain player I'll take him at his word. Dirty hits happen no matter what. It's just the rate they do happen. 90% of hockey players agree on this.

I think it's a combination. His hockey IQ combined with the goons and just the fact opposing teams ran him less than others. He still got rocked a few times tho like anybody else.

I think that's flat out insane. It's not even an argument the game has become less physical. Players use to openly want to injure other players and would be encouraged to play that way. Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens, Domi etc. last about 10 games in today's league before having to drastically change their games. Stick work is skill. Systems are more skill based today. I never said defence got worse. You could argue it's smarter and the skill based systems are tougher than the brute force style that was played years ago. Can't make an argument that the physical nature of the game hasn't been completely shutdown in favor of skill. Most would argue for the better I think. It's basically a different game.

 

[henchman21]

Think this is where we disagree. You can be dedicated to your team and have ambitious goals while also having vices that are detrimental to what you're working towards.

It wasn't too long ago that we were talking about how much of a warrior Nuke was by playing through a broken foot. That's dedication - and I still believe this is where the root cause of the issue came from. And to be clear i'm not giving him a free pass, simply that if he wasn't dedicated to the team he would've pulled a Matthews/Nylander and said he was injured and couldn't play.

That's not where the issue came from (there were issues with the Stars prior to him even going back to the KHL). All players end up playing through something at different points. The stories are everywhere and what Nuke did helped the team and helped them win that Cup. The last two seasons he has shown the exact opposite.

In my opinion, a person who is putting their cocaine and hooker addiction above the team 3 times in 13 months, including ending 2 playoff runs is not a person who is dedicated to the team. He's an addict and his first and foremost dedication is fulfilling that high.

 

[Balthazar]

I feel like we'll never agree on this. When a player openly admits he thinks twice about what he does on the ice because of a certain player I'll take him at his word.

Both players and GM's agree that they make a difference. Whether it's real or a just a false sense of security doesn't really matter. When Sakic got MacDermid after the Vegas series he knew what he was doing.

 

[Pokecheque]

I feel like we'll never agree on this. When a player openly admits he thinks twice about what he does on the ice because of a certain player I'll take him at his word. Dirty hits happen no matter what. It's just the rate they do happen. 90% of hockey players agree on this.

I think it's a combination. His hockey IQ combined with the goons and just the fact opposing teams ran him less than others. He still got rocked a few times tho like anybody else.

I think that's flat out insane. It's not even an argument the game has become less physical. Players use to openly want to injure other players and would be encouraged to play that way. Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens, Domi etc. last about 10 games in today's league before having to drastically change their games. Stick work is skill. Systems are more skill based today. I never said defence got worse. You could argue it's smarter and the skill based systems are tougher than the brute force style that was played years ago. Can't make an argument that the physical nature of the game hasn't been completely shutdown in favor of skill. Most would argue for the better I think. It's basically a different game.

I still see plenty of cheap shots, cross checks, and open-ice hits. And there are still plenty of headshots, because the league still can't make their mind on what constitutes a shot to the head.

And yes, we will never agree on the goon thing. I don't believe those players who said they "thought twice," they're just perpetuating the myth. If there was an OUNCE of truth to it, guys like Matt Cooke would've been stopped dead in their tracks. I agree having a goon on your team makes NHL players *feel* tougher, but it doesn't result in fewer cheap shots for that team.

 

[ANewHope]

Both players and GM's agree that they make a difference. Whether it's real or a just a false sense of security doesn't really matter. When Sakic got MacDermid after the Vegas series he knew what he was doing.

I think because it's an all or nothing mentality. Dirty play = goons didn't work. Goons just drop the rate of how often dirty plays happen and you can't get an exact measurement from it.

I still see plenty of cheap shots, cross checks, and open-ice hits. And there are still plenty of headshots, because the league still can't make their mind on what constitutes a shot to the head.

Ya because literally any questionable play gets blown up league wide and becomes a discussion among everyone. Back in the day you'd get 4 of those plays in a game and nobody would blink. It's not an exaggeration to say players were encouraged to blow guys up as much as possible. Today its the opposite. Your encouraged to let up and if you don't it's becomes a talking point even if it was clean.

I honestly don't think there's an argument to be made that the league has become less physical/more safe. Just look at the rosters. NHL made a major shift towards skill and turned away from the violent aspect of hockey. Doesn't mean your still not gonna have dirty plays or guys won't get blown up. It's just not encouraged, celebrated, or something that happens every night.

 

[henchman21]

The NHL is way softer than compared to 20 years ago, let alone 30-40-50 years.

At about 1:30 Gretzky gets blown up (this whole video has some plays that simply wouldn't be allowed today)

 

[Balthazar]

The NHL is way softer than compared to 20 years ago, let alone 30-40-50 years.

At about 1:30 Gretzky gets blown up (this whole video has some plays that simply wouldn't be allowed today)

No concussion spotter back then. Wonder if he played his next shift?

 

[Ceremony]

The NHL is way softer than compared to 20 years ago, let alone 30-40-50 years.

At about 1:30 Gretzky gets blown up (this whole video has some plays that simply wouldn't be allowed today)

Keep your head up.

 

[henchman21]

Don't recall this being discussed... ~4B renovation for the Delta Center in SLC. ~900m from SLC and 3B from Smith

Deal would keep Utah Jazz and pro hockey in Salt Lake City — or Smith group would face steep penalties

The Utah Jazz and the state’s new professional hockey team would be required to play all of their home games in the Delta Center under a deal being finalized between Ryan Smith and Salt Lake City.

www.sltrib.com

Timeline:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1809341154703577447

Interesting that this will be done in stages. Some of the north end next summer, complete by the end of the season South end starts summer of 26 and fully complete by the end of 26-27. New ice floor (likely the new raising floor) complete for 27-28.

Pure guess but probably looking at 10k unobstructed to ~13k unobstructed by the end of 25-26 to ~16k by the end of 26-27. New floor and done by the 27-28 season.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

1- McDavid is much closer to Gretzky than he is to the 4th guy (Forsberg)

2- Mack would be significantly higher without the Duchene era.

3- Era adjusted, Mario is the best hockey player that ever played the game

I'm not really liking this graphic at all. They said it's ERA Adjusted but not how they did that. Also, because it's showing the total number of seasons played, we have no idea when in their careers they reached this level. For example, Forsberg has a ranking of 108/82 but did that in 9 seasons. Crosby has a ranking of 107/82 but has also played 16.2 seasons. I feel like the difference in seasons played throws out the validity because the sample size is so drastically different for each of these players.

 

[hawk30]

Where the heck is Jagr on that list??

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Where the heck is Jagr on that list??

He's probably the number one case of where longevity could hamper some peoples true legacy. When folks look at his complete career pts/60 it will be much lower than it would have been had he played his entire career in the NHL and retired before his skills started to truly drop.

Instead Jagr decided to increased he contributions to game by continuing to play in a diminished role and allow his experience, wisdom and natural leadership to really boost his worth to teams. He was effective early as a top line player. He's effective still today as a part-time player on the lower lines.

Jagr like Forsberg is a unicorn in the NHL history books.

 

[S E P H]

Don't recall this being discussed... ~4B renovation for the Delta Center in SLC. ~900m from SLC and 3B from Smith

Deal would keep Utah Jazz and pro hockey in Salt Lake City — or Smith group would face steep penalties

The Utah Jazz and the state’s new professional hockey team would be required to play all of their home games in the Delta Center under a deal being finalized between Ryan Smith and Salt Lake City.

www.sltrib.com

Timeline:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1809341154703577447

Interesting that this will be done in stages. Some of the north end next summer, complete by the end of the season South end starts summer of 26 and fully complete by the end of 26-27. New ice floor (likely the new raising floor) complete for 27-28.

Pure guess but probably looking at 10k unobstructed to ~13k unobstructed by the end of 25-26 to ~16k by the end of 26-27. New floor and done by the 27-28 season.

So they're not making a new arena? Just doing what Seattle did?

 

[expatriatedtexan]

So they're not making a new arena? Just doing what Seattle did?

What? Make no mistake...Climate Pleadge is a completely new stadium. The only thing they kept was the roof because it was considered such a local treasure to the community. They literally cut the roof off, lifted it up, demolished everything underneath, dug deep into the earth and then built a completely new stadium that was designed to allow the old roof to sit on top. This actually significantly increased the cost of the project but was done as a commitment to the community.

Now, I'm not saying that SLC's final project will be as good because it's not a complete gut, but I will say that there is the potential for this to really be considered a completely different arena once completed.

I'm actually willing to give Ryan Smith the benefit of the doubt that I would never have extended to Shenkarow, Gluckstern & Burke, Ellman, Moyes, the NHL, IceArizona, Barroway, or Meruelo. Think about the difference in finances and competence between Smith and all these others. My biggest beef with Ryan is that I want to default spelling his last name as Smyth.

 

[henchman21]

So they're not making a new arena? Just doing what Seattle did?

Yeah there was seemingly a pivot when the NHL needed an arena next year.

 

[S E P H]

Talk about a 180 from this bloke.

What? Make no mistake...Climate Pleadge is a completely new stadium. The only thing they kept was the roof because it was considered such a local treasure to the community. They literally cut the roof off, lifted it up, demolished everything underneath, dug deep into the earth and then built a completely new stadium that was designed to allow the old roof to sit on top. This actually significantly increased the cost of the project but was done as a commitment to the community.

Now, I'm not saying that SLC's final project will be as good because it's not a complete gut, but I will say that there is the potential for this to really be considered a completely different arena once completed.

I'm actually willing to give Ryan Smith the benefit of the doubt that I would never have extended to Shenkarow, Gluckstern & Burke, Ellman, Moyes, the NHL, IceArizona, Barroway, or Meruelo. Think about the difference in finances and competence between Smith and all these others. My biggest beef with Ryan is that I want to default spelling his last name as Smyth.

Fair enough.

Yeah there was seemingly a pivot when the NHL needed an arena next year.

At 4B, I just don't know why you don't build a new one, but they obviously know the schematics more than I do. SoFi Stadium cost 5-6 billion to make and that seats 70,000. Has inflation gotten that much and in Utah of all places to spend 4B, holy smokes?! This arena must have gold urinals at this point.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Talk about a 180 from this bloke.



Fair enough.

At 4B, I just don't know why you don't build a new one, but they obviously know the schematics more than I do. SoFi Stadium cost 5-6 billion to make and that seats 70,000. Has inflation gotten that much and in Utah of all places to spend 4B, holy smokes?! This arena must have gold urinals at this point.

There are a lot of factors driving the cost up. Interest rates on loans today vs even 5 years ago has a serious overall effect on the cost. Then you have to factor in how rapidly companies have had to increase wages for employees (necessary and overdue but still... this cost is not just absorbed by the company hiring the employees, they have to bake it into the cost of the project as well).

Last thought is that SoFi Stadium is open to the elements while NHL arenas have to build in and bake in the costs associated with an enclosed and heavily air conditioned building with icemaking equipment that requires specific temperature and humidity controls.

Basically, these are two completely different type of engineering structures. It's not apples to apples, it's apples to oranges.

 

[henchman21]

Talk about a 180 from this bloke.



Fair enough.

At 4B, I just don't know why you don't build a new one, but they obviously know the schematics more than I do. SoFi Stadium cost 5-6 billion to make and that seats 70,000. Has inflation gotten that much and in Utah of all places to spend 4B, holy smokes?! This arena must have gold urinals at this point.

4B is the cost of the whole renovation of the area around the arena too (which seems likely to have two high rises). So the arena will be less but it would likely be cheaper to build a whole new arena. Timeline and desire from the govts probably dictated this change.

The plans are kinda wild though. It will be unlike any multipurpose basketball/hockey venue when it is done. Remains to be seen if that is a good thing.

 

[hawk30]

He's probably the number one case of where longevity could hamper some peoples true legacy. When folks look at his complete career pts/60 it will be much lower than it would have been had he played his entire career in the NHL and retired before his skills started to truly drop.

Instead Jagr decided to increased he contributions to game by continuing to play in a diminished role and allow his experience, wisdom and natural leadership to really boost his worth to teams. He was effective early as a top line player. He's effective still today as a part-time player on the lower lines.

Jagr like Forsberg is a unicorn in the NHL history books.

Averaging across entire careers is fine, I guess, but then this ranking is by construction going to inflate McDavid relative to all of the retired players since everyone slows down after 30.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Averaging across entire careers is fine, I guess, but then this ranking is by construction going to inflate McDavid relative to all of the retired players since everyone slows down after 30.

One thing to remember is that they've arbitrarily made cutoffs at 300 and 700 games. I'd rather see a range of guys that played 250-400 and guys that played >= 750.

 

[Gruyeriev]

So they're not making a new arena? Just doing what Seattle did?

The roof of Key Arena was part of the Worlds Fair and declared a historic landmark so it had to stay. Something like that had never been done before. Climate pledge is basically new besides the roof and some exterior windows. They dug it all out and built from the ground up while the roof was artificially elevated with bracing which made the whole thing as expensive as building a new Arena.